Getting wrecked in m+ DH tank

[Puupi]

Everyone does run spirit bomb. He is so wrong it's not even funny.

I was looking for a VDH without spirit bomb with 13s done in time but got bored after pages of pages of you being wrong...

You're giving terrible advice if you suggest not using SB in M+.

Raiding, yea that is questionable on a boss to boss basis but M+ has a meta of SB for a reason.

How exactly am I wrong?

How does "everyone running with SB" prove that I'm wrong with "SB is a survivability loss". Which it is. That's a fact. Whether you should take the talent to do high m+'s in time is another question.

A guy was asking for advice ON STAYING ALIVE in m+, not for climbing some ridiculous e-peen ladder.

[Deleted]

This might be a bit OT as well, but still - what do you think Vengeance DH should concentrate on gearwise when doing M+?
I mean, I've got the raid gear with Archive of the Titans and stacking agi seems pretty good, but not sure if selecting the "tanking" traits like cycle of binding or rigid carapace might be better overall. Also, which trinkets do you use? I've got both darkmoon decks (currently equipped) and the raid dps trinkets (frentic and construct, both 370). I've seen vengeance tanks going full dps, but not sure if it's viable on higher keys.

[Cyi]

How exactly am I wrong?

How does "everyone running with SB" prove that I'm wrong with "SB is a survivability loss". Which it is. That's a fact. Whether you should take the talent to do high m+'s in time is another question.

A guy was asking for advice ON STAYING ALIVE in m+, not for climbing some ridiculous e-peen ladder.

I get what you are saying and you are correct. If someone takes SB and uses it in place of cleaving souls for health, they are taking a loss of survivability loss. I think his point was that someone who is new to the role and is struggling at that ilvl probably needs to remove SB from their rotation, which would then only allow them to use the souls for health regeneration.

Its a unique idea, one that you may or may not agree with, but I can see the point they are trying to get across.

[Maylander]

A few things:
- Yep, you will have to kite or CC on certain packs when it's Fortified. Grab a Frost Mage or Hunter. Keep in mind that Demon Hunters have an excellent, instant cast CC (Imprison). For some reason I rarely see people use it.
- Soul Barrier is a somewhat underrated talent. It's especially nice during Fortified weeks, as it's available on almost all hard-hitting trash packs, and can give you a significant absorb when you need it the most. It's worth knowing that any orb consumptions while the shield lasts will add to its strength.
- Go with defensive azerite traits that are strong in mythics. Two sets is preferable, so you can have the matrix (just one is needed to be honest) and so on in one set, and get essence sever (just one), cycle of binding (just one) and soulmonger (just one) for the mythic set. It is theoretically possible to use the same 2 out of 3 items in all situations and only replace a single item based on what you're doing, but it's hard to get such a combo.

[Deleted]

I play mostly healers and I have to say that healing DH tanks is the second hardest, after druids.

I really dont want to have DH or Druid Tanks in my groups.

DK is kinda spikey too, but they dont die for some reason.

Warriors and paladins are fine but Monks are the shit. When I have to heal a monktank I know that I am in for a treat.

Yeah I was speaking to a few healers today from guild and they were saying there is kind of 3 tiers in m+

Monk/DK paladin/warrior then dh/druid

In terms of how easy they r to heal

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A few things:
- Yep, you will have to kite or CC on certain packs when it's Fortified. Grab a Frost Mage or Hunter. Keep in mind that Demon Hunters have an excellent, instant cast CC (Imprison). For some reason I rarely see people use it.
- Soul Barrier is a somewhat underrated talent. It's especially nice during Fortified weeks, as it's available on almost all hard-hitting trash packs, and can give you a significant absorb when you need it the most. It's worth knowing that any orb consumptions while the shield lasts will add to its strength.
- Go with defensive azerite traits that are strong in mythics. Two sets is preferable, so you can have the matrix (just one is needed to be honest) and so on in one set, and get essence sever (just one), cycle of binding (just one) and soulmonger (just one) for the mythic set. It is theoretically possible to use the same 2 out of 3 items in all situations and only replace a single item based on what you're doing, but it's hard to get such a combo.

I may use soul barrier.. feels like in could use an extra defensive cd

[Narabug]

Yeah I was speaking to a few healers today from guild and they were saying there is kind of 3 tiers in m+

Monk/DK paladin/warrior then dh/druid

While that may be anecdotal experience of your healers, it's not showing in the raider.io rankings. Vengeance is performing quite well. As was stated earlier, in this thread - you can face tank when you have mitigation up. If you're in melee without spikes, you're doing it wrong.

[Taladendren]

How exactly am I wrong?

How does "everyone running with SB" prove that I'm wrong with "SB is a survivability loss". Which it is. That's a fact. Whether you should take the talent to do high m+'s in time is another question.

A guy was asking for advice ON STAYING ALIVE in m+, not for climbing some ridiculous e-peen ladder.

I think you're totally failing to appreciate that mobs dying faster increases your survivability. It's not simply a fact you'll stay alive more easily soul cleaving instead of casting SB. On a tanking dummy, while running at least 1 gaping maw, I'd guess you're right. In practice, I think you're totally off, and the data don't back you up.
As said, no one runs FD over spirit bomb: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...spec=Vengeance
Moreover, look at the logs.
Here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mary&source=56
Soul cleave is 15% of healing done, Spirit bomb is #3 at 10%. And you say it's nothing? Come on. More importantly, spirit bomb is 5% of the group's dps, and that's for tyrannical without teeming. Mobs dying faster means you have less to surviving to do and healing percentage is going to be higher on fortified weeks.

The real answer is not to do the Corsairs in FH while you don't poison dispel. More soul cleave with gaping maw traits might help with that particular problem, but that's like putting on a helmet so you can bash your head into a brick wall. (The real answer is to not do it.)

[Puupi]

I think you're totally failing to appreciate that mobs dying faster increases your survivability. It's not simply a fact you'll stay alive more easily soul cleaving instead of casting SB. On a tanking dummy, while running at least 1 gaping maw, I'd guess you're right. In practice, I think you're totally off, and the data don't back you up.
As said, no one runs FD over spirit bomb: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...spec=Vengeance
Moreover, look at the logs.
Here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mary&source=56
Soul cleave is 15% of healing done, Spirit bomb is #3 at 10%. And you say it's nothing? Come on. More importantly, spirit bomb is 5% of the group's dps, and that's for tyrannical without teeming. Mobs dying faster means you have less to surviving to do and healing percentage is going to be higher on fortified weeks.

The real answer is not to do the Corsairs in FH while you don't poison dispel. More soul cleave with gaping maw traits might help with that particular problem, but that's like putting on a helmet so you can bash your head into a brick wall. (The real answer is to not do it.)

If you want to argue semantics about mobs dying faster increasing your survivability, you can argue that if you would be self healing more, the healer could do more dps. Anyhow, if you are "Soul Cleave spamming" and have 3x Gaping Maw, each GM is about 2000-3000 hps (depending on the ilvl of said items) - so 6-9k hps from that trait alone, then the added healing from Soul Cleaves vs Spirit Bomb and you can sustain 15k+ hps self healing even in single target mild damage scenario.

[Nemb]

Only time I struggle in 9+ keys as vdh is when the groups DPS is garbage. I almost never kite unless things go off the rails. Dont be afraid to use meta on big pulls and bring steelskin pots. When there are tons of adds up, it's pretty easy to sustain 15k+ self healing and 20k DPS. Also don't be afraid to call for external if your own stuff is on CD. Use last resort as a sort of a cooldown if necessary too. The meta once it triggers is again a ton of self heals.

[Tech614]

If you want to argue semantics

I mean there is nothing to argue. You're just wrong and failed to accept that.

Link a VDH doing 13s in time without SB as you claimed you do.

If SB wasn't good for completing M+ then every VDH completing high keys wouldn't be using it. You're sitting here acting like every good player is somehow playing wrong and you have a magic answer, it's quite laughable.

[Puupi]

I mean there is nothing to argue. You're just wrong and failed to accept that.

I'm wrong at what exactly?

Link a VDH doing 13s in time without SB as you claimed you do.

I claimed what?

If SB wasn't good for completing M+ then every VDH completing high keys wouldn't be using it. You're sitting here acting like every good player is somehow playing wrong and you have a magic answer, it's quite laughable.

Do you have trouble grasping what we are even talking about here? Who has said anything about SB not being good for completing high keys?

[Tech614]

I'm wrong at what exactly?

Don't try to be obtuse now.

You suggest a player not use SB for M+.

You where asked what your experience in M+ was and said up to 13s.

Yet you can't provide a single example of a VDH completing a 13 in time without SB?

You can try to goal post move all you want, but you can't wiggle yourself out of this. Suggesting a VDH run FD in M+ is both laughable and bad advice.

[ONCHEhap]

Kinda OT, but that reason is very likely the talent that gives them 35% damage reduction below 35% life.

Yeah,Blood comfort zone is below 35% health,something that needs to be explained to healers because they always burn their mana when you get close to 35% :P

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Don't try to be obtuse now.

You suggest a player not use SB for M+.

You where asked what your experience in M+ was and said up to 13s.

Yet you can't provide a single example of a VDH completing a 13 in time without SB?

You can try to goal post move all you want, but you can't wiggle yourself out of this. Suggesting a VDH run FD in M+ is both laughable and bad advice.

I mean he said FD was better for facetanking,and SB better if you kite,he also said by keys above 10 were done by kiting

You don't need to be a genius to piece it back together

[Puupi]

Don't try to be obtuse now.

I'm obtuse?

You suggest a player not use SB for M+.

Yes. because of his survivability issues. That's what this thread is about.

You where asked what your experience in M+ was and said up to 13s.

And where does that line mention anything about VDH doing 13's in time without SB? As I said, I have done 10's to 13's on eight characters, DH being one of the characters I play.

Yet you can't provide a single example of a VDH completing a 13 in time without SB?

I have never argued one shouldn't take SB if you are pushing bigger keys.

I'll repeat this once more: SB is a survivability loss.It's a DPS gain. Whether you should make that trade off depends on variety of things. Like who is playing and with whom, what content they are doing and how they are doing it, and what is their goal.

[Lindon]

How exactly am I wrong?

How does "everyone running with SB" prove that I'm wrong with "SB is a survivability loss". Which it is. That's a fact. Whether you should take the talent to do high m+'s in time is another question.

A guy was asking for advice ON STAYING ALIVE in m+, not for climbing some ridiculous e-peen ladder.

You are actually not correct when it comes to m+.

In a single-target situation the healing provided through only soul cleaving would be higher since the flat hp recovery from SC is higher than the 10% leech healing fragility would provide.

In m+ where the you'll mainly face trash packs of different sizes, the healing provided through increased dps and the 10% leech far outweigh the flat healing you get from SC. I'm not even taking into account here the fact that it's way easier to utilize your souls better with SB since it absorbs everything compared to SC's 2 souls (controlling spike damage taken with using 4-5 souls SB's).
You could technically still talent into SB and only refresh the debuff but I have trouble wrapping my mind around something so incredibly stupid that I sincerely hope that no one is doing that.


These things can ofcourse shift if you are running with sub-optimal azerite traits for said build.

[Puupi]

You are actually not correct when it comes to m+.

In a single-target situation the healing provided through only soul cleaving would be higher since the flat hp recovery from SC is higher than the 10% leech healing fragility would provide.

In m+ where the you'll mainly face trash packs of different sizes, the healing provided through increased dps and the 10% leech far outweigh the flat healing you get from SC.

You need to be dealing a minimum of constant 20k dps for 10% leech to win a single SC (without any Gaping Maws) every 6 seconds or so.

[Lindon]

You need to be dealing a minimum of constant 20k dps for 10% leech to win a single SC (without any Gaping Maws) every 6 seconds or so.

Yes? High ST/AoE dps is one of the major selling points of SB.

[Puupi]

Yes? High ST/AoE dps is one of the major selling points of SB.

Yeah well that break-even DPS threshold rises to 40k-60k if you have 3x Gaping Maw.

I mean sure, SB does good damage, but even the best of the best DH's according to warcraftlogs end up at 8-9k overall dps in high keys.

Just an example log of Atal'Dazar 15:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...se=-2&source=3

The DH didn't even peak 20k dps at all in the dungeon. And he is one of the top ranking DH's over there.

[Lindon]

Yeah well that break-even DPS threshold rises to 40k-60k if you have 3x Gaping Maw.

You're more than welcome to try and get 3x Gaping maw traits on your highest ilvl pieces.

I mean sure, SB does good damage, but even the best of the best DH's according to warcraftlogs end up at 8-9k overall dps in high keys.

Just an example log of Atal'Dazar 15:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...se=-2&source=3

The DH didn't even peak 20k dps at all in the dungeon. And he is one of the top ranking DH's over there.

His peaks are roughly at the point where SB = SC in terms of survivability output. The peaks are also (usually) the times where you need better burst healing to help alleviate the tendency DH's have of taking exorbitant amounts of spike damage. That is something SB is better at, providing burst healing. A spiky tank will need burst healing.

The point still stands that the situations where you need both damage and survivability SB will come out as the winner due its ability to provide both high burst healing when needed and a steady stream of leech healing which in trash packs roughly equals that of the SC healing.

Small differences will exist, but those differences are to small to actually provide any noticable difference in survivability. One such difference is that SB is harder to use than SC since you should ONLY use it when you have 4-5 souls, below that amount (or wasting souls by overcapping) and you're performing at the same level, if not lower, as if you were playing without any 108 talent.

[Tech614]

I mean he said FD was better for facetanking

And it's not.

You both face tank and kite in a proper M+ run at a high level so not sure why you're trying to claim it's a situation of either or, not to mention face tanking with SB in a 9 is not going to be an issue period, and outside of necrotic week you should never have to kite a 9(and even necrotic only select few pulls).

The goal post moving to defend his terrible advice by him is pretty bad at this point so done replying to it.

You really can't defend giving terrible advice such as using FD in M+.