Lady Liadrin is a savage

[cparle87]

That might be true for the Blood Elves but the Nightborne are the same elves that willingly followed Azshara and then cooperated with Guldan rather then fight.

If you'd go to the nightborne's page on wowpedia you'd find the very first sentence there refutes the first part of your statement.

"The nightborne are the night elves of Suramar[10] who fought the Legion in the great War of the Ancients to defend their home and close a second demonic portal using the Eye of Aman'thul that would have overtaken and outflanked the resistance forces led by Kur'talos Ravencrest and Malfurion Stormrage to stop Queen Azshara.[11][12]"

Elisande's whole shtick was that she had defied the Legion once, but wasn't willing to risk her people a second time.

[Darth-Piekus]

Well Kendro you can't really help it. Blizzard these days have written the Horde as a New Scourge with Sylvannas as the role of the Lich King and the other Horde characters as the role of mindless ghouls.

[Nero Duskwind]

She or Lor'themar would be the best warchief in my opinion.

Alleria- I wanna touch the sunwell in void form.
Lor'Themar- NO YOU IDIOT I JUST GAVE YOU ACCESS TO THE CITY ANNNNDDDDDDDDDD AHHHH! DAMNIT.
Lor'Themar- Homeless woman. Get....out.

I'm hazarding a guess that Lor'themar will be the next warchief and Liadrin will step up as the new Regent of Quelthalas.

[omeomorfismo]

The druids also slept in shifts, not all of them were sleeping all of the time either.

Let's entirely forget the War of the Satyr and the War of the Shifting Sands. Two wars that put everything except maybe the third war and the most recent Legion invasion to shame on size and scope of life lost and stakes.

War of the Satyr would have brought back the Burning Legion before Silvermoon was even up and a city, before the Earthen reawoke as dwarves, the humans started setting up kingdoms or the Trolls to be able to recover from the Sundering.

The War of the Shifting Sands was so brutal that even the Dragonflights when hiding from Deathwing decided that the situation was dire enough that they had to step in or all else was lost.

The Sin'Dorei have two major things in common with the Shal'dorei.
One: Both people hid in magical cities with arcane wards to hide their activity and shields to protect them from physical threats and literally ignored everything going on in the world until their cities were burning.
Two: Both people are super butt hurt about a majority of the Kaldorei turning their back on obsessive arcane studies and claim to be victims of the Kaldorei banning dangerous studies into arcane magic.

This latter one is the most important because the circumstances that befell both the Sin'Dorei and Shal'dorei are directly related to their own choices after the Sundering. The Quel'dorei chose exile to go and hide their arcane practices from greater Kal'dorei society after their revolt in Ashenvale went sideways. They then built another city on sacred troll lands, built up their arcane usage, then went and trained humans to use arcane magic but forgot to tell humans that using arcane magic without special wards will draw the attention of the Burning Legion and lead to another invasion. The humans had to learn the lesson of demons invading and killing them entirely on their own, and instead of practicing magic safely they chose to make a demigod mage to fight demons. The Quel'dorei knew this was going on and did nothing. The Quel'dorei knew about the events of the first and second war and did nothing until an orc army was burning Quel'thalas down. When the undead plague was ravaging Lordearon the Quel'dorei did nothing again. The Quel'dorei only saw the undead plague as an issue when Arthas starting destroying their gates.

Note: the Kaldorei knew about the first and second war, but they had their own problems to worry about at the time, and they were also duty bound to protect the World Tree. The Kaldorei were literally sending agents across the world keeping an eye on it and trying to keep targets they saw most dangerous to the safety of Azeroth and then either killing them or locking them up in the Warden's Vault.

The Shal'dorei were even worse than the Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei. They actively chose to ignore the entire world. They knew everything was going to hell and that the fate of the world was in the balance and they chose to put up a shield and then ignore the world. For ten thousand years they decided ignoring the world was better than interacting with it, and they also knew that their method of ignoring the world was slowly killing them. Then, when refaced with the consequences of their actions from 10,000 years ago they caved and chose to ignore the problem again. This is very important the Shal'dorei in Suramar aren't direct descendants of the ancient Highborne society, they are the Highborne society from 10,000 years ago. Apart from children that grew up, most of the adults are literally the people that were alive and chose to work with Azshara and bringing the Legion to Azeroth, only to get cold feet part way through and then create a shield and ignore everyone.

The only breed of elves that have showed any capability of learning from their mistakes has been the Kaldorei. They make a mistake, it usually brings them to the edge of extinction, but they learn and change. The arcane obsessed offshoots of the Kaldorei have never learned and constantly make it the rest of the world's problem with their choices.

So no, the Shal'dorei and Sin'dorei did not make the correct choice when they joined the Horde, because each time they did so in an attempt to gain or maintain power and not accept responsibility for their past mistakes.
The Sin'dorei rejoining the Alliance would mean they would have to accept that they've made a lot of bad choices since they left Ashenvale.
The Shal'dorei joining the Alliance would mean they would have to reconcile with the Kaldorei, who also made it possible from the Shal'dorei to still exist without the Eye of Amun'thul powering the Nightwell.

Anyways that is my thoughts and rants on the matter. Lady Liadrin isn't savage, she is an intolerably proud and willfully ignorant individual who really should have been best friends with Garrosh, and probably has tea with Sylvanas every other afternoon if she honestly thinks that there is anything right or justified with the Horde's current state. Liadrin is just another case and point that the Light is not inherently good nor does someone using it make them virtuous. I could not see Liadrin ever being welcome in any temple of the Light, be it Light's Hope or the Netherlight Temple after a comment like that, as it does directly conflict with how other practices of the Light believe one should act.



edit:


Also he wasn't protecting it the whole time, it's been repeated over and over again. The Druids would protect the Emerald Dream in shifts and when they were not protecting the Emerald Dream they protected the physical world.
You know all of those world trees around Azeroth? Fandral Staghelm planted those to take care of the saronite infestation. Remember saronite, the blood of Yog'saron? One of Yog'saron's escape attempts was to just leak his blood out across the planet and corrupt everything, and he almost succeeded. While Malfurion was in his first Emerald Dream shift, Fandral took care of that problem by planting additional world trees, which stopped the spread of saronite. Malfurion was upset when he woke up later and found out that Fandral had done that because it should have been discussed in detail before executed.
The druids basically took over the jobs of the Red and Green dragonflights between the War of the Ancients and the Third War. The rest of the Night Elf society took over the job of the Black Dragonflight, and protected the world from major external threats.

If you really want to look at a people that saw the world falling apart and did nothing, look at the Zandalari. They did not participate in the War of the Ancients, they did not help anyone or do anything until the return of Hakkar. For all intents and purposes the Zandalari slept for 10,000 years.

here there are so many wrong things....

nightbornes closed the tomb portal and watching an apocalypse incoming they shielded themself (i mean, it have sense that the ones near the well even survived?). then they choosed to not watch outside, but frankly they were fine until the coming of gul'dan.

helves after the first problem in dalaran, or even before, warned the humans of the danger of bl. to the point that they gave the artifact to create the spear and then the guardian. still humans achieved to fuck up.
first war nobody on lordaeron give a fuck about stormwind. nobody even knew the level of danger until the end.
Second war the problem was in fact that alleria helped humans, without her orgrim never would need the help of zul'jin and so the siege never would happened (remember, the combine effort of kirin tor, paladins and alleria forces barely matched the dks). even gul'dan wouldnt be in the situation to fuck up all and so, maybe, the BL couldnt use orcs to invade azeroth.

nelves learned something? damn the druids only achieved to fuck up exactly the highborne did.
first they started to be fucking ecological hippie going to silithus to make it green and waking up silidith and c'thun and so starting the war of shifting sand.
they fuck up their form and create worgen.
they started to plague the world with the abominations called world tree giving the keys to the old gods to corrupt the emerald dream.
exactly like highborne some of the druids alligned themself with the evil guy (ragnaros and old god).

damn they had "human potential" even before humans. in front of all that the aspects would spit them, but no, they were fine because reason...

and zandalari closed himself? damn they were far away. like the pandarens they realistically couldnt join the war, even considering that the war was started by an enemy race

[sweatshopkids]

So you deny Malfurion slept for ten thousand years?

If you're tired you need to sleep. He went bear form and hibernated.

[Eazy]

Liadrin - a blood elf that didn't even participate in a single important war. xD

[Elestia]

"incapable"
i mean, surely they were too soft with humans, but helves developed infallible defense against burning legion. even the "tecnologies" gifted to humans worked somehow for thousand of years.

The versatility and ingenuity of humans was enhanced by dwarven and gnomish machinery, not by the high elves. The high elves were magisters and would have aided in building Dalaran to which Silvermoon would send their magisters, not the other way around. The High Elves joined the Alliance because the Alliance was worthy of joining on it's own and because it represented a kind of progression unknown to the high elves who had languished in complacency for millennia. The price of Sindori immortality is and always has been an empty existential state. At no point have they ever attempted to be better as a people because they've always thought they were the pinnacle despite time and time again proving themselves wrong. Even where they are now - their pact with the Horde was made to spite the Alliance but also out of self-preservation with Sylvannas' undead in their doorstep. Otherwise they'd go back to living in isolation and not give a shit about the world. Liadrin, just like the rest of the blood elves, represent the horde insofar as it makes sense to do so.

[omeomorfismo]

The versatility and ingenuity of humans was enhanced by dwarven and gnomish machinery, not by the high elves. The high elves were magisters and would have aided in building Dalaran to which Silvermoon would send their magisters, not the other way around. The High Elves joined the Alliance because the Alliance was worthy of joining on it's own and because it represented a kind of progression unknown to the high elves who had languished in complacency for millennia. The price of Sindori immortality is and always has been an empty existential state. At no point have they ever attempted to be better as a people because they've always thought they were the pinnacle despite time and time again proving themselves wrong. Even where they are now - their pact with the Horde was made to spite the Alliance but also out of self-preservation with Sylvannas' undead in their doorstep. Otherwise they'd go back to living in isolation and not give a shit about the world. Liadrin, just like the rest of the blood elves, represent the horde insofar as it makes sense to do so.

you missed that all the spear and guardian things are basically helves rituals?

[Xath]

Liadrin - a blood elf that didn't even participate in a single important war. xD

Accurate 10char

[Ghazan Julio]

Accurate 10char

No just the first Blood Knight. She used to literally beat the shit out of invading ally players with her fists lol. Idk if blizz was thinking Holy Monk at the time or what haha.

[Magnagarde]

Liadrin - a blood elf that didn't even participate in a single important war. xD

She participated in the elven drug cartel wars for the Naaru juice and clearly won. While the night elves slept (read were busy saving Azeroth from the Burning Legion instead of blaming the whole world for what befell them), her people were busy juicing. The Suramar cartel has merged with the Silvermoon cartel after Legion.

Arathi is a key trafficking junction for the Blood Knight product and Lliadrin is going all-in over that turf. Not to mention that the easiest opportunities to bust up some churches and tombs of heroes open up through that very zone.

[Mehrunes]

you are wrong

go read some stuff on wowpedia
your arguments are invalid

I can outright quote Chronicle v2 here in regards to everything I said in that post if needs be. But before we get to that, how about humor me and actually point out where have I been wrong there instead. You know, instead of throwing vague accusations around and pretending it vindicates you.

hmm yeah better to do nothing about it and wait to get killed when the scourge arrives. thats the high elf logic i know

presumably medivh approached the high elves in addition to the humans, night elves and orcs when he was assembling his world saving team so i guess we have to just assume that they turned down his offer of going to kalimdor to save the world. either that or he correctly understood that the world wouldn't need the high elves to help defeat the legion because they are generally useless and self-centered. they probably thought saving the sunwell was more important but that didn't work out as we know

There was little to know about prior to that. It's not like humans back in capital had some intimate understanding of the Scourge threat either. And what does Medivh have to do with fighting the Scourge threat, i.e. what your claim was about? Medivh urged people to flee to Kalimdor to fight the Legion. Not warn them about the Scourge. Your divagations about Medivh potentially not even approaching them has even less to do with that point of yours.

How did she abandon Quel'thalas by hunting down orcs? Was it currently in danger during that time? She was a Farstrider at that time, a group of rangers specifically tasked with fighting the Elves. Hunting down escaping orcs falls well into her job description, it is not abandoning anyone.

Did she hunt them in Quel'Thalas? Did she hunt them on orders from Silvermoon or Sylvanas? Not that we know of. Instead we know she hunted them down for her personal vengeance, which shocked the people around her. I.e. even her reasons for doing so had nothing to do with Quel'Thalas or the danger Orcs supposedly still posed to Quel'Thalas after the Horde collapsed. Looks like her going AWOL, quacks like her going AWOL.

I was talking about them joining the horde, not the alliance.

Right.

Her people changed their allegiance and relation to the alliance in absentia.

Your Kael'thas comment kind of is confusing in that regard. On one hand, you declare her a traitor for not joining the 'direct continuation of her old nation'. But on the other hand, you apparently do not see Kael's faction that, even though it technically had the stronger claim to being the 'real' blood elf faction.

You mean the faction that abandoned their people to join the Legion and then attacked their people not over any claims to Silvermoon or primacy in regards to Thalassian nation, but to capture the Sunwell to cause a demon invasion? Gee, I wonder why I do not see those Legion puppets as a real Blood Elf faction at that point.

Never mind that it no longer even exists, so it's not like Alleria rejected Quel'Thalas because she was forced with choosing between it and Kael'thas. What exists is the regency issued by Kael'thas before he decided it's good idea to summon Eredar lords to Azeroth. Also, never mind that surviving Sunfury, i.e. Kael'thas' faction even after he went bonkers, returned to Silvermoon, recognizing its position and merging what remained of those two subfactions.

And if you think Kale'thas's betrayal after he joined the Legion is any argument here, I once again raise you this: if there was a surviving human Lordaeron nation today, would Turalyon be vindicated for rejecting them because "they sided against their rightful ruler Arthas" and "Arthas' faction had a stronger claim to being the 'real' Lordaeron faction"?

In either event, she never joined the blood elves, she never had a proper chance as far as our sources are considered. You can, per definition, not betray a faction you never joined.

Blood Elves are just renamed High Elves after their sovereign exercised his power to decree so. The High Elves of today are a group that appeared only later on and are various exiles and other traitorous elements. Which is what Alleria hasn't joined. There's no place to even talk about her "never joining" them because she only ever left them after she got exiled by Lor'themar.

The high elves of Quel'thalas were enemies of the orcs and at least loosely allied with the humans. The bloodelves are enemies of the humans and at least loosely allied with the orcs.

A nation isn't defined by its allegiances, especially since their allegiance to Alliance that you rise as argument here ended before Alleria even left to Draenor and lasted for 5 years tops out of the nation's thousands of years long history. Alleria gets to define those allegiances even less. She has no say in what Quel'Thalas allies itself with. She may not like it, but if she acts against it based on her personal feels she's a traitor by default.

I am not gonna talk about the rest again, we already had that discussion in another thread. Just look that up if you want a response. Both major factions have done bad stuff to one another. Don't feel like having another chicken-egg with you.

Good, because neither the chicken nor the egg here is relevant to Alleria situation, let alone excuse the choices she made. Alleria choosing a faction that was Quel'Thalas' ally for maybe 0.13% of her lifetime, which Quel'Thalas left even before she disappeared and which since then became its enemy (for longer than the previous number) over Quel'Thalas because she thinks she can decide what Thalassian Elves should ally with or not automatically makes her a traitor to Quel'Thalas.

[Kiri]

Blood Elves are just renamed High Elves after their sovereign exercised his power to decree so. The High Elves of today are a group that appeared only later on and are various exiles and other traitorous elements. Which is what Alleria hasn't joined. There's no place to even talk about her "never joining" them because she only ever left them after she got exiled by Lor'themar.
A nation isn't defined by its allegiances, especially since their allegiance to Alliance that you rise as argument here ended before Alleria even left to Draenor and lasted for 5 years tops out of the nation's thousands of years long history. Alleria gets to define those allegiances even less. She has no say in what Quel'Thalas allies itself with. She may not like it, but if she acts against it based on her personal feels she's a traitor by default.
Good, because neither the chicken nor the egg here is relevant to Alleria situation, let alone excuse the choices she made. Alleria choosing a faction that was Quel'Thalas' ally for maybe 0.13% of her lifetime, which Quel'Thalas left even before she disappeared and which since then became its enemy (for longer than the previous number) over Quel'Thalas because she thinks she can decide what Thalassian Elves should ally with or not automatically makes her a traitor to Quel'Thalas.

The High Elves of today are a group that existed before as well. Those same people were alive back then, and most of them have upheld their original beliefs, ideals and friendships. You call them traitorous, but that is because you take the position of 'the government' in this case. Fact is, the current leaders of the blood elves were not the same leaders back then. They might have had high positions back then, but they were not Quel'thalan sovereigns. Heck, a point can be made that the current leadership came into power due to a military putsch. The current leadership derives its legitimacy mostly through three points: representing the majority of the population, holding the seat of power, and being led by people that held power once before. But it is not democratically elected, nor do they have the sovereign's blood. Mind you, I am not saying those guys aren't better than Kael. But it would be better to define the bloodelves as a new nation, instead of a seamless continuation of the old.
A nation may not be defined by its allegiances alone, but what are they defined by? The people? Bloodelves represent less than 10% of the population back then, likely about 6-7% at best by now. Take your own country, if it was reduced to 6-7% of its population, likely chosen not fully at random but due to clusters that escaped an attack, it would be a somewhat different country.

However, you bring up choices. What choices did she really make upon returning to Azeroth? We do not know if she was even given a chance to join the blood elves. The scenario does not indicate so. In fact, she is immediately rejected as an alliance lapdog, despite, at that point, having taken not a single action that could harm the blood elves or the horde in general. All she did was not immediately attacking the alliance and accepting their hospitality, something that many members of the horde had also done in the weeks before. Remember that even mighty lady Liadrin came to the Exodar and joined the assault on Argus, alongside the alliance. That is all that Alleria has done by the time she is rejected: having fought alongside both Horde and Alliance, having accepted hospitality of a faction the horde was not officially at war with, and deciding to try and mend the fences between the blood elves and alliance. Is that alone treason? Because right after that, she is formally exiled. And then, the blood elves declare war on her. That is not treason.

[Eradicator3]

The High Elves of today are a group that existed before as well. Those same people were alive back then, and most of them have upheld their original beliefs, ideals and friendships. You call them traitorous, but that is because you take the position of 'the government' in this case. Fact is, the current leaders of the blood elves were not the same leaders back then. They might have had high positions back then, but they were not Quel'thalan sovereigns. Heck, a point can be made that the current leadership came into power due to a military putsch. The current leadership derives its legitimacy mostly through three points: representing the majority of the population, holding the seat of power, and being led by people that held power once before. But it is not democratically elected, nor do they have the sovereign's blood. Mind you, I am not saying those guys aren't better than Kael. But it would be better to define the bloodelves as a new nation, instead of a seamless continuation of the old.
A nation may not be defined by its allegiances alone, but what are they defined by? The people? Bloodelves represent less than 10% of the population back then, likely about 6-7% at best by now. Take your own country, if it was reduced to 6-7% of its population, likely chosen not fully at random but due to clusters that escaped an attack, it would be a somewhat different country.

However, you bring up choices. What choices did she really make upon returning to Azeroth? We do not know if she was even given a chance to join the blood elves. The scenario does not indicate so. In fact, she is immediately rejected as an alliance lapdog, despite, at that point, having taken not a single action that could harm the blood elves or the horde in general. All she did was not immediately attacking the alliance and accepting their hospitality, something that many members of the horde had also done in the weeks before. Remember that even mighty lady Liadrin came to the Exodar and joined the assault on Argus, alongside the alliance. That is all that Alleria has done by the time she is rejected: having fought alongside both Horde and Alliance, having accepted hospitality of a faction the horde was not officially at war with, and deciding to try and mend the fences between the blood elves and alliance. Is that alone treason? Because right after that, she is formally exiled. And then, the blood elves declare war on her. That is not treason.

The question is, did the thalassian government forbid Alleria to join the alliance expedition in outland right after the horde was push back and demand that she returns in quel'thalas. If so, she can be considered traitor. Otherwise not.

[Kiri]

The question is, did the thalassian government forbid Alleria to join the alliance expedition in outland right after the horde was push back and demand that she returns in quel'thalas. If so, she can be considered traitor. Otherwise not.

Yeah, that would be defying orders, but I don't think we know anything about that, sadly.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The question is, did the thalassian government forbid Alleria to join the alliance expedition in outland right after the horde was push back and demand that she returns in quel'thalas. If so, she can be considered traitor. Otherwise not.

If she's actively trying to overthrow the government of Quel'thalas, killing her own, trying to forcibly move her kingdom to a different side, she's traitor in race if nothing else, just like the void elves.

[The Stormbringer]

So you deny Malfurion slept for ten thousand years?

The Druids 'slept for thousands of years' for a reason. They made a pact with the Dragons that they would assist as Druids and Keepers of the Emerald Dream, as well as be allies with them in exchange for the blessings they received. Y'know, like immortality?

Also, not all the Druids slept.

Yes, the Elves kept to themselves (for the most part) and 'hid in the trees', but it was because their people had already fucked over the world so badly they were afraid they'd screw things up again if they tried to come center stage. Instead they kept the peace in their forests, stopped threats like in the War of Shifting Sands and the War of the Satyr, and maintained the long vigil in case the Legion returned.

[masterjc]

sorry for making a rude answer.
I think you are wrong.
there is one thing, that might be agreed or disagreed depending on Personal View.
this game has evolving storytelling, and even Chronicles had some mistakes

Alleria left Quel'Thalas for several reasons:
1. personal vengeance
2. she decided orcs were much dangerious than other elves thought. she was right

none of those mean that she was a betrayer. later in some stories we see that she misses and cares about Quel'Thalas
there is no hint about her being a betrayer. she disobeyed orders. if it was assumed a betrayal, we might assume that Sylvanas was a betrayer to Elves as well. she had several orders to remove Nathanos from Farstriders. and she always disobeyed.

sorry for bad English

[MikeBogina]

Lor'themar would be the best warchief in my opinion.

Yeah at this point we need a leader who isn't warmongering like Garrosh and Sylvanas(they're both justified though) and not a pussy like Baine. Someone who doesn't seek war, but is ready to fight one.

Thalyssra even though a new member, I think she'd make a great warchief. In fact I'd rather her and Lor'themar just leave and form their own Elven faction and get just as much screen time as the Alliance.

[Cronovey]

While the Druids slept, the Night Elves were involved in more wars than any other race. Without the Night Elves, the Burning Legion would have won a long time ago.

Silly quotes like this make me wonder about people. Without the Night Elves, the Legion would never have been at Azeroth in the first place or known of its location. Consider that the distance of Azeroth is so far from Argus that every time Sargeras has tried to invade Azeroth he's required dimensional rifts to be in place to transport there because of the incredible distance. First the Well of Eternity itself as a portal, then the Scepter of Sargeras with the power to open a rift large enough just for his Avatar to come through, and finally the direct portal with the Sargerite Keystone between Azeroth and Argus at the end of Tomb of Sargeras.

Night Elves are the source of the problems on Azeroth almost wholly. Someone pointed out that they fought satyrs, worgen, and the qiraji. Night Elves are directly responsible for two of those three threats themselves with the satyrs being former night elves themselves and the worgen being druids representing wolf forms originally who had to be banished to a separate section of the Dream. The Qiraji are leftover from the Titan keepers not completely cleaning up their messes, and even then they had the assistance of dragons to take care of that one who are basically the Titan's designated cleanup crew on Azeroth to begin with.

While I think that some of the lore with the Nightborne is definitely questionable, it does make sense that they'd work with the faction of elves that has a similar issue to the plight they're suffering through magic addiction and deposing a ruler who has turned their back on their own people in exchange for safety and power (Elisande and Kael'thas are quite similar really) and not side with the elves who dislike magic usage even after letting the Highborne back into the fold and directly insult them to their faces. Tyrande is basically saying she expects Thalyssra to go traitor at any moment and lets a ten thousand year old grudge to get in the way of a potential ally even after letting the casters back into the Night Elf ranks back in what, Cataclysm? So the writing there about being worried about what side she was on against the Legion originally seems a bit odd, unless you consider that she perhaps regrets letting Illidan out of his prison and she doesn't want to take another risk with someone who may potentially ally themselves with the Legion again.

It's a little sketchy but when you put all the pieces together it's really not that unreasonable; Tyrande has been bitten by trusting people before who were tempted by Legion power with Illidan absorbing the Skull of Gul'dan and taking over Outland, etc and doesn't want to make the same mistake twice while Liadrin herself has done some pretty sketchy stuff (siphoning a Naaru's power anyone?) and has overcome the same magic addiction and been forced to turn on her own leader before as well so between those two things it seems pretty likely that Tyrande would be skeptical while Liadrin would be welcoming, and when you're out on your ass and trying to rejoin the world you'll take whatever option you have.