Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Deleted]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

Titanforging in its current state is very unhealthy for the game imo due to following reasons:

1) There is no cap on TF, which means any item dropping can be a 400 ilvl item if you're lucky enough. Raid trinkets atm are quite lackluster, which means doing WQs for a shitty 320 trinket is important if you want to maximize your character in case this one time it TF to 400. Arcano Crystal in Legion is a great example of why TF is a terrible feature without a cap.

2) It inflates ilvl a lot. This means that new raids will have to take TF somewhat into consideration and increases power growth by an absurd amount. LFR gear in the new raid already invalidates all of Uldir bar mythic, which is hilariously bad game design, as it flat out removes content in the current expansion.

3) It creates a situation where getting a non TF item from a boss feels bad. The boss drops the same item for you and your bro, but his item TF, leaving you with a sour taste in your mouth. In the old days it was all about getting that one piece to drop and it felt great when it did. Now the item has to drop with TF + socket or you want to ragequit.

I'm sure there are multiple other reasons for other people, but imo these are the 3 worst situations for me.

[Naked Snake]

Because you should only be able to get the rarer, more decent gear from harder content. I see people walking around 3-5 piece of titanforged lfr and Mythic 0-+2 warforged / titanforged and their on par with hc raiders. It's ridiculous frankly.

It is only a couple of pieces. Their itemlevel will not be on par with hc raiders. Heroic raiders have the same chance of getting titanforged gear, plus they get gear with a higher base ilevel.

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LFR gear in the new raid already invalidates all of Uldir bar mythic, which is hilariously bad game design, as it flat out removes content in the current expansion.

What are you talking about? How does it invalidate all of Uldir? LFR Uldir gives lower gear than normal and heroic Uldir. Every piece of gear can titanforge.

How the hell does it remove content? That makes no sense.

[nocturnus]

LFR gear in the new raid already invalidates all of Uldir bar mythic, which is hilariously bad game design

The only thing that's hilariously bad, is this comment. The stupidity is unparalleled.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

And you have just confirmed my original point: the problem is with expectations. You are chasing a dream. You are chasing something that may be mathematically possible, but its probability is infinitesimally low.

But suppose you convince me and I agree titanforging is bad. Suppose you go on to convince Blizzard as well, who scrap it in the next patch. Now BiS is whatever base item is the best for each slot. That is realistically achieveable. Would you be happy with that gear?

Yes I would be extremely happy with that. That has been my biggest complaint about WF/TF sine the day it was added together with the ToT patch back in MoP...

[Yoshimiko]

Titanforging is just another part of a problem people have, in general, with WoW that a lot of people either don't understand or don't agree with. To explain it, here's some perspective on the past:

Roughly 8-10% of the population raided in vanilla. Only around .1% of the population saw a single boss die in Naxx. You could count on your hands the number of groups who killed Sapphiron. When you saw someone with a piece of gear, you KNOW they earned it. It was dedication, skill and determination. When you saw someone with an ilvl 83 piece of loot, when you saw someone with the corrupted ashbringer, when you saw someone with Atiesh, Tier 3, etc. You know they worked for it. Seeing someone with an ilvl 90 piece, a legendary, KT weapons, etc. was amazing.

For the players working towards them; they put in hard work. They knew they'd be rewarded if they kept at it. The day your guild finally downed Majordormo, finally downed Baron Geddon, saw Ragnaros spawn and slayed his ass - these were exciting moments! Every part of the raiding experience was rewarding. Seeing the bosses was a big part of that; seeing them die was an even bigger part and the loot was just the kicker at the end.

Now, fastforward to today. Anyone, with almost no work at all, can see all of the bosses. Everyone can kill them in a laughably weak state. Everyone gets a color-shifted piece of gear. And now, that color-shifted piece of gear? Can be the highest ilvl in the game. There's no sense of achievment. There's no sense of reward. Getting a Titanforged piece of loot isn't the culmination of a long term goal, it's something randomly shat into your bag with little to no effect from you. Titanforged could have been good but it was turned into an RNG mess. Titanforging could have been the solo-players answer to upgrading gear but instead you're randomly going to get the highest ilvl piece of gear in the game for doing...world quests?


Things don't feel rewarding like they used to. You're not rewarded for doing harder content, you're rewarded for being lucky. And that doesn't feel good to anyone. Worst of all, it pushes this skinner box model that people hate to the nth degree. It's the same reason people hated the "Ancient Ancients" meme in Diablo 3.

People might disagree with me, but this is my problem with Titanforged. I'm a casual player, I want to be rewarded like a casual player. I miss looking up to that guild with the Atiesh. I miss looking up to that Warlock in full T3. I miss looking up to good players. Getting a big titanforged piece might be good for the individual who snagged it, but it's awful for the game as a whole.

[Flarelaine]

Titanforging is just another part of a problem people have, in general, with WoW that a lot of people either don't understand or don't agree with. To explain it, here's some perspective on the past:

Roughly 8-10% of the population raided in vanilla. Only around .1% of the population saw a single boss die in Naxx. You could count on your hands the number of groups who killed Sapphiron. When you saw someone with a piece of gear, you KNOW they earned it. It was dedication, skill and determination. When you saw someone with an ilvl 83 piece of loot, when you saw someone with the corrupted ashbringer, when you saw someone with Atiesh, Tier 3, etc. You know they worked for it. Seeing someone with an ilvl 90 piece, a legendary, KT weapons, etc. was amazing.

For the players working towards them; they put in hard work. They knew they'd be rewarded if they kept at it. The day your guild finally downed Majordormo, finally downed Baron Geddon, saw Ragnaros spawn and slayed his ass - these were exciting moments! Every part of the raiding experience was rewarding. Seeing the bosses was a big part of that; seeing them die was an even bigger part and the loot was just the kicker at the end.

Now, fastforward to today. Anyone, with almost no work at all, can see all of the bosses. Everyone can kill them in a laughably weak state. Everyone gets a color-shifted piece of gear. And now, that color-shifted piece of gear? Can be the highest ilvl in the game. There's no sense of achievment. There's no sense of reward. Getting a Titanforged piece of loot isn't the culmination of a long term goal, it's something randomly shat into your bag with little to no effect from you. Titanforged could have been good but it was turned into an RNG mess. Titanforging could have been the solo-players answer to upgrading gear but instead you're randomly going to get the highest ilvl piece of gear in the game for doing...world quests?


Things don't feel rewarding like they used to. You're not rewarded for doing harder content, you're rewarded for being lucky. And that doesn't feel good to anyone. Worst of all, it pushes this skinner box model that people hate to the nth degree. It's the same reason people hated the "Ancient Ancients" meme in Diablo 3.

People might disagree with me, but this is my problem with Titanforged. I'm a casual player, I want to be rewarded like a casual player. I miss looking up to that guild with the Atiesh. I miss looking up to that Warlock in full T3. I miss looking up to good players. Getting a big titanforged piece might be good for the individual who snagged it, but it's awful for the game as a whole.

This post is very confusing. Are you respecting the item or the item level? It is still possible to tell where a piece of loot came from, you know.

[SirCowdog]

What are you talking about? How does it invalidate all of Uldir? LFR Uldir gives lower gear than normal and heroic Uldir. Every piece of gear can titanforge.

How the hell does it remove content? That makes no sense.

It neither invalidates nor removes content. But it does detract from it. If you get a lucky series of drops your iLVL could allow you to skip a difficulty. Theoretically you could go from LFR straight into Heroic with a little push from M+, a couple 370 pieces off WF quests or the WB.

Why this is such a tragic affront to players is baffling, however. I mean, who the hell really cares if some rando LFR hero suddenly find their way into Heroic. Why is that a bad thing when mythic progression is still there to do?

[Yoshimiko]

This post is very confusing. Are you respecting the item or the item level? It is still possible to tell where a piece of loot came from, you know.

Back in the day, the item WAS the item level. You could tell at a glance whether someone was a top-tier raider or pvper or just a fresh 60 or somewhere in-between.

My problem with titanforging is it doesn't reward you for being good or working hard at it; it rewards you for dumb luck. It completely cheapens the value of progression when you see a friend get 2 max-ilvl titanforges out of LFR.

[Flarelaine]

Back in the day, the item WAS the item level. You could tell at a glance whether someone was a top-tier raider or pvper or just a fresh 60 or somewhere in-between.

My problem with titanforging is it doesn't reward you for being good or working hard at it; it rewards you for dumb luck. It completely cheapens the value of progression when you see a friend get 2 max-ilvl titanforges out of LFR.

Each to their own, I guess. I tend to be happy for friends when they get lucky.

[Jervaise]

From my point of view the downside of TF is that I cannot target&work towards items that I want.

With secondary stats being as they are, I am sometimes forced to wear an unoptimal piece because ti TF'd 395 with a socket.

It might seem not that bad from this angle, however, it leaves you with a feeling that you have no control over anything.

[Naked Snake]

It neither invalidates nor removes content. But it does detract from it. If you get a lucky series of drops your iLVL could allow you to skip a difficulty. Theoretically you could go from LFR straight into Heroic with a little push from M+, a couple 370 pieces off WF quests or the WB.

Why this is such a tragic affront to players is baffling, however. I mean, who the hell really cares if some rando LFR hero suddenly find their way into Heroic. Why is that a bad thing when muthic progression is still there to do?

Yeah I really don't get why that would be a bad thing.

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From my point of view the downside of TF is that I cannot target&work towards items that I want.

With secondary stats being as they are, I am sometimes forced to wear an unoptimal piece because ti TF'd 395 with a socket.

It might seem not that bad from this angle, however, it leaves you with a feeling that you have no control over anything.

Well, if you're wearing it, it's better. Why target a piece with different stats if the one you got is better because of the high item level?

[Whistl3r]

Mad how people care that much what other people have. Remove a mechanic from the game to stop people who I deem to be not as good as me (more than likely, just less time than you) having better gear. Think of someone else for a change, It's hard work getting into higher level mythics without silly I-lvls and a titan-forged item or two (people aren't realistically getting many more than this ) helps bridge that gap.
Honestly what an unhealthy way to play a game.

[Einsz]

This is why, 385 vs 395 socket profiles (395 could be more optimized but i cba)

https://imgur.com/a/B9DY5c1

/endthread

[Jervaise]

Yeah I really don't get why that would be a bad thing.

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Well, if you're wearing it, it's better. Why target a piece with different stats if the one you got is better because of the high item level?

As I said the main problem is that I have no control over my character progression

[Deleted]

how convinient that you forget how "you" (as players) also used to whining all day long about lack of content.

were here you go - you have content to do - enjoy.

I think you are confusing me with the official speaker for the entire internet.

[Naked Snake]

As I said the main problem is that I have no control over my character progression

Yes, you do. Why do you think you don't?

[Stacie]

I stopped Mythic raiding in legion, did not mind it. Actually i loved it i was able to "catch up" to mythic gear level and help the team out without feeling to behind at end of the expan. (just doing social heroic/normal runs)

This expan i am mythic raiding and i get cheesed off because i see others are getting handed upgrades of the same level or higher than mythic without the effort. grrrr.

The bit i also don't like is when a BiS item drops, it feels kinda disappointing when its not titan-forged with a socket. I miss being able to aim for the best gear without having to use the slot machine.

[Tekkommo]

I'm not a fan of it because when a piece of gear drops that you want, you should be excited. With Titanforging, you're usually like meh, it didn't Titanforge (maybe gong a bit over the top here).

I do have 2 main complaints about it.

I like to know what gear I am after, and I think it's foolish to chase Titanforging drops. What Titanforging does, is that it gives the possibility for gear with stats you don't want, be better than the normal drop you do want.

It also inflates ilvl, there is just no need for it, it is not fun.

I've been lucky with Titanforging drops this expansion, so I'm not against it because I have no luck.

[Deleted]

do a 5 second google search you'll get hundreds of videos outlining why people hate it.

[Dusty tome]

Blizzard has spent so much time catering to the worst of its playerbase without ever asking itself why it bothers to. Progression outside of a extremely limited section of the game is dead and for what?

A slot machine system coupled with a grind that would embarrass Korean game devs?

Now we see were this road blizzard went down since sunwell leads to its ultimate consolidation. A dull bland world of instant empty gratification. What worse is those who ravaged the game so hard who demanded it be made this way with bellows of " everyone needs to see the content" were the very first to flee from it like a sinking ship.

Offer them no quarter or shelter in classic for they will return to invest and rot the game from within again it is all they know.