[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[scrappybristol]

Wow.

After Sylvanas burned the tree, Horde was like "Not my warchief!"

Now after Lost Honor, Horde be like "Saurfang is a traitor! #TeamSylvanas"

Y'all some fickle folk.

[Deleted]

For once, we actually agree. Saurfang may have had honour in times past, but all of that means nothing now when you look at his track record since BFA.

I think that user meant that the Horde was that dishonorable animal with no honor, not Saurfang.

[Ashiraya]

To quote a good friend;

The cinematic seems to tie Saurfang's character development in this expansion together pretty well, as demented and senile as he's seemed on a few occasions.

He starts out going to war because he's been convinced it's necessary; he can't be certain the Alliance won't strike in the future, so it'd be best to strike first. His "inner pragmatist" is convinced by Sylvanas arguing as much.

Then in Darkshore the cracks start to show. First with the decision not to kill Malfurion when his life was fully in Saurfang's hands, given that it'd break with the conventions of war he tries hard to uphold, even if it does seem like the pragmatically favourable outcome. Second when Sylvanas decides to burn Teldrassil and he sees those conventions not just budged, but outright ignored.

Then before the Battle for Undercity it seems he, unable to reconcile what he's been part of in the War of the Thorns, goes out to find that good death while there's still some will left in him to fight - it takes Zekhan convincing him to give the Horde one last try by saying the Horde is all they have, and there are people in it who rely on him as a symbol.

After the battle and seeing his leader disregard the lives of the same soldiers he agrees to send to war, he comes face to face with the confrontation that the Warchief didn't seem to care at all about making those sacrifices, and that in the end this is a leader for whom everyone is ultimately expendable. And somehow Sylvanas still retains her leadership and to some extent popularity.

So he sulks in his cell, realising he's had the Horde - the entity he'd fought wars to protect both from others and from itself - swept out from under him, not to the sound of rebellion like what happened under Garrosh, but to the cheers of people who'd follow her to the end of the earth (as far as he's aware - remember he never gets to see Baine confronting Sylvanas in the throne room, or the doubts we as players see later).

The confrontation with Anduin seems to show to him that even his last flicker of hope - that the Alliance would've gotten united enough to stop something he couldn't - was false, and so what little pride is left in him sets out to do his one last deed against impossible odds.

He has nothing left to lose after basically enabling atrocities he wanted to never have happen again, and everything to gain by going out alone (he even says in 8.1 that he has to do this alone) in that same blaze of glory that he tried for in the Old Soldier cinematic.

Him getting that climactic ending would be a good knot to tie his story together and let the older generation of Saurfangs finally rest.

[Deleted]

I think that user meant that the Horde was that dishonorable animal with no honor, not Saurfang.

Hmm I may have to retract my previous statement then lol

[Deleted]

Hmm I may have to retract my previous statement then lol

I am not entirely sure, but that is how I read it. Could be wrong though.

[Skayth]

Wow.

After Sylvanas burned the tree, Horde was like "Not my warchief!"

Now after Lost Honor, Horde be like "Saurfang is a traitor! #TeamSylvanas"

Y'all some fickle folk.

not me, Ive been on team #blizzardwritingteamsucks
Burning down the tree without a shred of reason given? yea, thats garbage. Even if there was a small bread crumb that they could have given, it would have been fine... instead we get a video of sylvannas powersliding into melee range and then ordering saurfang to burn the tree out of an emotional outburst. Saurfang actually listened, even though he swore to cut down the next genocidal person... oh wait, he betrayed his own honor at this moment, when we know it is written that he would have IMMEDIATELY cut her down. No more garrosh's. Even if he would have died in trying, yet he follows through with HIS warchiefs commands.

Then he is full suicidal "all about honor" in battle for undercity. Hell he even gets released from prison to bring about a revolution. Yea, that is a garbage writing. They are literally recycling the entire voljin vs garrosh story with this.. its blantly fucking obvious.

If sylvannas is killed this expansion, then the horde has lost 3 major characters due to shitty writing. Sylvannas, cause shes dead... Her sexually deviant lover, nathanos, because he needs to die with waifu... and Saurfang, because not only is a fucking traitor to the horde, he has no fucking honor. He would be DEAD to the horde simply because of how his "honor" and stances always shift, and is constantly being a hand puppet for the alliance ( with anduin's hand sooooo far up saurfangs ass that he can feel the back the orcs teeth). Why the hell would anyone want to follow a constant whiney, suicidal, two-timing, and an alliance puppet without a SHRED of honor?

No. I already have a scheming warchief... but at least she isnt two-timing with anduin.

[Deleted]

Wow.

After Sylvanas burned the tree, Horde was like "Not my warchief!"

Now after Lost Honor, Horde be like "Saurfang is a traitor! #TeamSylvanas"

Y'all some fickle folk.

Because there's a big difference between an extreme action against a legitimate enemy military target and repeatedly betraying your own people - one is considered simply unforgiveable (in practically any culture) while the other is merely controversial.

[omeomorfismo]

It's obvious you don't understand because you're calling it a pointless siege, when the Horde, for its future ambitions, needed a port in Southern Lordaeron.

And again, this nonsense about "Not using blight" has no bearing on whether or not the Forsaken are being used as meat shields (they're not). It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion, and you're trying to shoehorn it in for absolutely no reason.

Again, if refusal to use a dubious weapon or blessing frames any losses as "lives being thrown away" then every character in the Warcraft Universe hates their own people and the others they command. It's a ridiculous line of reasoning that you're trying to force here.

With regard to the Apothecary being "shitted on:" Lydon suggested using the plague despite it being banned, his soliders were late and his scouts were failing in their duties. And Garrosh's statements regarding the latter two failures are relatively tame. Beyond that, this too is entirely irrelevant to the original point that was claimed.


You've tried this before and you couldn't prove intent. Do you really want to go down that road again?

its a pointless siege in a highly defended point because it is. literally sylvanas came from northren and improvised a better strategy (use boats, not big science) than that useless meatshield.
thats the problem with you, you take sentences, decontextualise some phrases, ignoring others, and bam, you think to have a point.
like the big garrosh strategy of using undeads. you take the dialog between him and the apothecary, completely ignoring that is presented as nothing more than a garrosh' pretext to shut up lydon objections.
you take the initial description of the marshal and then gloss about how all these charges were useless and only retreated instead of doing something.

i mean, all is descripted as nothing more than a useless human wave attack in the perfect case where it shouldnt be used.

[Diatribe]

Nice Dwarf signature.

Thanks!

I play both sides. I claim no 100% loyalty to either, outside of my Dwarf Shaman (Originally a Space Cow) who has the bulk of my achievements earned, I can claim just as much play time on Horde as well as Alliance.

I've recently gone back to my OG Shaman that I started in Vanilla and parked in TBC when ex-guildies got back together on the Alliance side and lured me back (hence the creation of the Space Cow as I was locked into the Shaman class by then). Since I came back to the game (from taking 5 years off), I've been playing all the content from WoD to BFA and I can honestly say that I've enjoyed Horde's storyline far, far more (there's been moments for Alliance I've enjoyed, sure).

[Purpleisbetter]

Because they're lead by Anduin, a noble hero of the light?

I mean there was more of that back when we had Varian. He got better, Garrosh got worse until he had to be put down.



So what you're saying is, instead of trying to regain their honor, they should double down on their current path and just become Team Evil?

I mean it'd be a different ending than MOP I guess. Sure, let's kill Saurfang and Baine and burn some alliance orphanages!



Naw, Garrosh was True Horde. WOD was Iron Horde, pretty sure we had a Dark Horde, Fel Horde, Old Horde... https://wow.gamepedia.com/Horde_(disambiguation)

How about "Steel Horde", after the Strength of Steel story? That's catchy enough.

You know, when the US joined the war in WWII and later nuked Japan, US citizens and alllies in general didn't say "F.D Roosvelt is evil!"
It was a war.
For the Japanese people, Hirohito wasn't the "bad dude, cpt of team evil" when he ordered the attack in Pearl Harbour.

It's war, honor is a beyond retarded concept when the life of your people or your "national" interests are at stake.
If you're a citizen of Orgrimmar you couldn't care the less about a tree. You want your warchief to get the job done and avoid being killed by the opposing faction.

Unless what we want is a Thrall on both side and the franchise renamed "peacecraft"

[Maljinwo]

For the Japanese people, Hirohito wasn't the "bad dude, cpt of team evil" when he ordered the attack in Pearl Harbour.
"

Japan intended the attack as a preventive action to keep the U.S. Pacific Fleet from interfering with its planned military actions in Southeast Asia against overseas territories of the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and the United States.
Result: The United States join the war


Funny. Sylvanas tried the same thing and caused the same. While I have no doubt that the Japanese didn't think of Hirohito as an evil dude, I do think people don't like to be plunged into more war that can endanger their lives. Specially when looking back and see the devastation it brought.
And now the Horde's losing in every front according to both Nathanos and Halford.

[KaPe]

It's war, honor is a beyond retarded concept when the life of your people or your "national" interests are at stake.
If you're a citizen of Orgrimmar you couldn't care the less about a tree. You want your warchief to get the job done and avoid being killed by the opposing faction.

Unless what we want is a Thrall on both side and the franchise renamed "peacecraft"

You do realize that "honor" does exist in real wars, right? Otherwise, people would never take prisoners and shoot them on sight, never accept any surrender, never spare civilians and so on. Failure to uphold any standards ensures the other side will eventually do the exact same thing, which results in much higher losses than would otherwise happen. You destroyed the enemy, but also lost the majority of your civilian population in the process, because the enemy eventually stooped to your level. It's only "retarded concept" when one side abandons it's completely and the other never adjusts. Which shouldn't happen unless they get completely annihilated without any chance to react.

Remember when Jaina was about to flood Orgrimmar but was talked out of it by Thrall and Kalecgos? If both sides were to abandon honor completely, she would do it without hesitation - and Khadgar would probably be right next to her, helping out. Naturally, it won't happen in the actual game, since it would completely mess up with the story, but that's the point you're going to reach by declaring honor as a "retarded concept".

I realize that people on the Internet often think that "honor" is some pathetic weakness that can be easily exploited - and thus Sylvanas is supposedly amazing tactician by doing so, but it has consequences. If Night Elves weren't the punching bags of WoW, Night Warrior would be just the first step of seeing what happens once the "honorable" faction get pushed too far and some people start demanding drastic measures. There's Void Elves and their animation of dead raptors as some sort of void puppets. Shaw with Blood Trolls. Eventually, you'd have Worgen ripping Horde civilians to shreds under cover of the night and probably burning everything, so there's no corpses to raise.

What you call "peacecraft" is "avoiding total war", which would have extreme costs for both sides. It's basically the MAD principle, except with magic instead of nukes.

[Thundering]

Does lost Honor confirm that the Alliance is weak? Since Anduin clearly states he can not stop Sylvanas.

[Deleted]

Because there's a big difference between an extreme action against a legitimate enemy military target and repeatedly betraying your own people - one is considered simply unforgiveable (in practically any culture) while the other is merely controversial.

Bullshit. People are still talking about Garrosh' manabombing Theramore like it was a warcrime. Except he let civilians leave before bombing the place.

Now Sylvanas burns an entire tree full of civilians and suddenly it's okay, because it was a military target. And Sylvanas goes scot free? You people are very selective in who you blame for warcrimes. It's mental gymnastics.

[Hubbl3]

snip

Yet taking out a high raking general or at least making him a prisoner of war goes not against honor in any war. Saurfang's concept of honor is stupid.

[Azalis1701]

Honest question here. Is getting help from the enemy of your country/nation/leaders to remake your nation in your image treason? By the literal definition it would be, since you are receiving aid from the legally declared enemy of your people. But is it really? Without advocating for or against his politics, was Lenin a traitor to Russia? He received aid from the Germans to overthrow the crown and become the new ruler but does that make him a traitor to Russia? Or does acting for what he thought was needed for the nation excuse it?

[steelballfc]

Saurfang sure is a piece of work

the short story shows that he and Sylvanas fully discussed the attack on Teldrassil/upcoming conflict beforehand and he agreed with her arguments, agreed to attack and was prepared for the consequences


he was & is totally fine with Horde potentially subjugating Alliance, sacking Stormwind (as long as it does not cost too much Horde lives), Alliance soldiers deaths etc. .. his only concerns are "honorable war" whatever that is and "get muh Horde back" .. not peace or Alliance lives .. yet he turns to that same Alliance


honestly Anduin should nuke him with his SP powers

someone give this life-binder a cookie

[Gorsameth]

Yet taking out a high raking general or at least making him a prisoner of war goes not against honor in any war. Saurfang's concept of honor is stupid.

Saurfang stabbed (threw) Malfurion in the back while he was in a 1v1 duel.
Yes, some people will see that as dishonorable.

[Deleted]

Bullshit. People are still talking about Garrosh' manabombing Theramore like it was a warcrime. Except he let civilians leave before bombing the place.

Now Sylvanas burns an entire tree full of civilians and suddenly it's okay, because it was a military target. And Sylvanas goes scot free? You people are very selective in who you blame for warcrimes. It's mental gymnastics.

Talking of mental gymnastics, I notice you conveniently completely ignore the case against Saurfang and try to strawman me with the irrelevant mention of Theramore. It's OK, the truth hurts when you can't argue against it.

- - - Updated - - -

Saurfang stabbed (threw) Malfurion in the back while he was in a 1v1 duel.
Yes, some people will see that as dishonorable.

And what about knowingly and consciously putting more Horde lives in danger for the sake of his own selfish ease of conscience, that's totally honourable is it? Just ask all the orcs and elve's and trolls who get slaughtered by Malfurion in Darkshore in 8.2, I'm sure they will be totally OK knowing they died appeasing thier commander's guilty conscience - that's totally more honourable.

[steelballfc]

I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".

my new signature