Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[Harbour]

You can ask the orc that was burried alive what he thinks about Saurfang and how he spared Malfurion.

And is that why you call Saurfang a traitor? It seems you have no problem with dozens orcs killed by the blight Sylvanas used in Lordaeron, so i guess she is traitor too.
The fact is most of Sylvanas decisions harmed the Horde on bigger scale than anything Saurfang did (or didn't since you brought Malfurion matter (Btw, its Sylvanas to blame on for Malfurion's survival. Whether she trust in Saurfang or not, she was the one who refused to kill Malf)).

[Deleted]

Why are people calling Saurfang a traitor? Sylvanas has been betraying the Horde time and time again, what Saurfang has done is child's play compared to the many betrayals of Sylvanas.

[steelballfc]

And is that why you call Saurfang a traitor? It seems you have no problem with dozens orcs killed by the blight Sylvanas used in Lordaeron, so i guess she is traitor too.
The fact is most of Sylvanas decisions harmed the Horde on bigger scale than anything Saurfang did (or didn't since you brought Malfurion matter (Btw, its Sylvanas to blame on for Malfurion's survival. Whether she trust in Saurfang or not, she was the one who refused to kill Malf)).

- he refused direct order from his Warchife that he Oath to listen.
- he let the king of the enemy live, and could have ended the war.

[Daevelian]

Spoken like a true troll, bravo sir. What a pity that all of these Alliance posters votes for Saurfang are still making no difference

Oh my, you picked that up pretty quick! I like you.

On a more serious note, a poll like this should probably be done somewhere a bit more exposed, the Sylvanas fan club subforum... err, Lore forum, tends to be pretty heavily biased in her favour and has been for a number of years now.

[Super Dickmann]

And is that why you call Saurfang a traitor? It seems you have no problem with dozens orcs killed by the blight Sylvanas used in Lordaeron, so i guess she is traitor too.
The fact is most of Sylvanas decisions harmed the Horde on bigger scale than anything Saurfang did (or didn't since you brought Malfurion matter (Btw, its Sylvanas to blame on for Malfurion's survival. Whether she trust in Saurfang or not, she was the one who refused to kill Malf)).

Using artillery in war =/= Defying a direct order from your Warchief to kill an enemy asset that's killed hundreds of your soldiers up to this point and will go on to kill hundreds more.

Sylvanas unironically did nothing wrong in the tactical sense of using the Blight there, especially since without the Jaina ex machina, it would have secured victory. The soldiers out of there admit to you as you reach them that they were out of position and were wrong to be there and had the Blight not been launched, they would've been killed anyway, just with swords instead of plague, as if it makes any difference.

As for the second part, I'm not going to stop you from arguing that point, but "Sylvanas should have known Saurfang would commit treason if left to his own devices" really isn't the argument you think it is. Sylvanas is retarded for not just shooting Malf herself and avoiding this situation, but that doesn't make Saurfang any less a traitor for disobeying the order and given what he's pulled in that war, Sylvanas had no reason to believe killing the enemy leader was beyond him.

[Deleted]

Oh my, you picked that up pretty quick! I like you.

On a more serious note, a poll like this should probably be done somewhere a bit more exposed, the Sylvanas fan club subforum... err, Lore forum, tends to be pretty heavily biased in her favour and has been for a number of years now.

An identical poll was run on the WoW forums, thereby giving you your "more exposed" criteria, where only Horde mains were counted and found an overwhelming majority in support of Sylvanas. The fact that it took a majority of Alliance votes in an exact copy of this poll a week ago to give Saurfang even a slight edge just shows how different the results would have been if they did not count and skew the figures. Even more telling is how now even that same support from the Alliance fanbase is not making a difference after this cinematic. Wherever you look, be it on here or any other forum, the facts remains she has a massive fanbase more than practically of any other current character.

[Daevelian]

An identical poll was run on the WoW forums, thereby giving you your "more exposed" criteria, where only Horde mains were counted and found an overwhelming majority in support of Sylvanas. The fact that it took a majority of Alliance votes in an exact copy of this poll a week ago to give Saurfang even a slight edge just shows how different the results would have been if they did not count and skew the figures. Even more telling is how now even that same support from the Alliance fanbase is not making a difference after this cinematic. Wherever you look, be it on here or any other forum, the facts remains she has a massive fanbase more than practically of any other current character.

You mean the one on the official Sylvanas fan club forum? (story forum). That is a dark place full of Sylvanas worshippers, they make this forum look gay for Anduin.

I wouldn't consider any polls coming from that place any more exposed or any less biased than the one here.

[Deleted]

Don't particularly like either of them but Sylvanas seems to have her head screwed on more than Saurfang.

Saurfang can get on his high horse and preach about honor, but he's the member of a horde where not everyone shares his orcish view of death as being alright if it's honorable. There's plenty of soldiers who are now in a war that HE organized and gave the go-ahead to, and he's letting them die because he's decided it's not fitting to his moral ideals.

It's selfish hypocrisy to go and sit it out, let alone conspire with the enemy and sabotage the war effort with things like his refusal to deal with Malfurion, someone he'd apparently have been fine killing if he was looking in the right direction and someone who's now killing random horde mooks who are just doing as Saurfang originally ordered them to, invading elf land.

He shows a lack of responsibility that is detestable from a wartime leader. He got the horde into this mess, Sylvanas wouldn't have started it without his backing, as made evident in the novel - running away from it because war rarely goes as planned and this one sure as hell hasn't, isn't exactly honorable conduct to say the least.

[Steelcryo]

The number of people saying Saurfangs a traitor and putting Sylvanas on a pedestal as if she's the best warchief that's doing all this for the horde is funny.

Both of them have fucked up hard. Saurfang could have killed malfurion and taken away one of the Alliances strongest champions and later could have killed the king that would've put a serious dent in the Alliance moral. Although it wouldn't end the war like a lot of people are saying. You really think Greymane would just go "Oh well they killed Anduin, they win, lets pack up and go home"?

Sylvanas on the other hand had the perfect strangle hold on the Alliance to stop the war before it even began but she decided fuck it, I wanna be petty and throw away the biggest advantage we'll ever have so lets burn the tree and all the innocent people in it for funsies. Not to mention the amount of her own forces she's killed with the blight.

So they've both fucked up big time but frankly I'd still pick Saurfang to lead the Horde because he seems to want to actually end the war and save as many lives (on both sides) as he can. Sylvanas on the other hand just constantly seems like she has ulterior motives other than just securing the Hordes safety.

That all being said, at the end of the day it's a story and I'm interested in seeing what Sylvanas does next and where the story goes. I don't want her to be removed as leader just yet because things are getting interesting. Also on that point of it being a story, people need to calm the fuck down and stop taking it so seriously. Just because you don't like where the story is going or what has happened so far, doesn't mean everyone else didn't enjoy it.

There's a lot of claims of saltiness going on in this thread and honestly if anyone is getting salty over the story of a game, maybe it's time to step away from the computer for a little while. It's a story, that's not even complete yet, maybe chill out and wait and see where it goes before you get up in arms about it. It's like reading a book and getting upset it didn't end the way you wanted when you're only half way through. I'm not saying you can't complain you didn't like it, just that wait until it's complete before you start frothing at the mouth about it.

[Deleted]

How is it less a threat? The Alliance is waging war and killing Horde members.

Tell that to the families and friends of the 5 Horde members killed by Malfurion.

How is it less of a threat? it Is not now. But Saurfang Knows who Started war with genocide. A war the Horde have a small chacne to survive.A war that even if they win, will kill so many soldiers, throwin their lifes away. He knows this will at BEST be the winner of a world that burned to the grown.

And tell that to the family of the 5 people malfurian killed? yea now, he is angry, But he did not respond in true force then the orcs invaded ashenvale in Vanila or in Cata. he stood with them in firelands, hordes and alliance. he had always been neutral. He let a man Go for who always had seen the bigger picture. but not just for his life, but for Saurfangs own soul, the spark of honor. Honor is what is the different between the Iron Horde and the current Horde. saurfang knows this. Had he killed him, that would be it.
here is a shocking news. Saurfang is an Orc. He interfered in a What only seemed like a duel. A Mak'gora a duel of honor. By interfering he lost everything he stood for, had he killed him after that, there would be redemptions in saurfangs own eyes.

[Zora-Prime]

How is it less of a threat? it Is not now. But Saurfang Knows who Started war with genocide.

Didn't Genn Greymane start the conflict in Stormheim?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[Deleted]

This desperate damage control for Saurfang sustains me. Saurfang didn't spare Malfurion out of a high minded ideal or some moral compass. Not after he was the one to greenlight the invasion of Darkshore and Ashenvale with a smile on his face, while hiring hundreds of rogues to attack an enemy who was unaware in a preemptive war. He did it because he felt good about it. Knowing that Malf would go on to kill more Horde soldiers and had already killed hundreds and almost singlehandedly stopped the invasion he wanted, Saurfang let him go and was smug about it. Rather less smug after it got the tree torched, but still. We can see the results of his excellent decision making in the new cinematic.

So lets start this he did not say yes to the war with a smile on his face. He did not hire those assasins, that seems by all evidence to be on sylvanas end. He could see the Plan of, strike hard, capture a city and make it so they can't stricke back. Not genocide. "Hiring hundreds of rogues to attack an enemy who was unaware in a preemptive war." seems to not be part of the main plan, as if you did the horde end of the side, you only killed guards, not civilians, it was to make it so the night elf surrended.

he did it yes to feel good about sparring malfuian, but also, Let me teach you something, He is an Orc. And a term of the day [ Mak'gora ] in orcishing that means a duel of honor. he interefed in what seemd to be a duel, by attacking from behind. he lost everything he stood for, had saurfang killed malfurian, there would be no redemption, no chance to ever regain his honor.

[Deleted]

You mean the one on the official Sylvanas fan club forum? (story forum). That is a dark place full of Sylvanas worshippers, they make this forum look gay for Anduin.

I wouldn't consider any polls coming from that place any more exposed or any less biased than the one here.

Actually it's an Alliance circle-jerk forum where practically every other thread is a "I hate Sylvanas" shitstorm started by the same usual suspects, but you see only what you want to see. As I've pointed out multiple times on other threads - no poll is perfect, but one that can rule out any trolling and irrelevant Alliance votes (i.e. WoW Forums where you can actually see their characters) is a damn site more accurate than one that cannot (i.e. here on MMOC). But that's by the by and going off-topic.

[KaPe]

Didn't Genn Greymane start the conflict in Stormheim?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Funny, I seem to recall Sylvanas invading his homeland, blighting it and killing his son. Or Horde attacking at Ashran without any provocation. Or her not really raising nearly as much fuss over this incident as you think she did, because she knows she was up to shady shit and it would be known if she brought up Genn.

he did it yes to feel good about sparring malfuian, but also, Let me teach you something, He is an Orc. And a term of the day [ Mak'gora ] in orcishing that means a duel of honor. he interefed in what seemd to be a duel, by attacking from behind. he lost everything he stood for, had saurfang killed malfurian, there would be no redemption, no chance to ever regain his honor.

Let's not forget that even if he decided to kill Malfurion - and he very well might have thought about it, after his initial doubts - Tyrande interfered before he could do anything. People act like Saurfang completely ignored Warchief orders and personally let him go, conveniently forgetting about that small fact.

And then, of course, they'll complain about how 4 Horde soldiers died because of that horribly act - as if Tyrande wouldn't go berserk on the spot and killed a fuckton more if Malfurion was killed... well, not even killed, "executed while defenseless".

[Xilurm]

Why can't Thrall just jump in and bash her head in and retake his Warchief title? What is he even doing anyway, pretty lame that almost his entire life was about leading the Horde and now it seems he doesn't give a shit...

As for the question, well I don't wanna anger the Sylvanas fanbois by siding with Saurfang so fuck them both.

[Zora-Prime]

Funny, I seem to recall Sylvanas invading his homeland, blighting it and killing his son. Or Horde attacking at Ashran without any provocation. Or her not really raising nearly as much fuss over this incident as you think she did, because she knows she was up to shady shit and it would be known if she brought up Genn.

Gilneas was under Garrosh's orders. (minus the plague thing)
Ashran has little to do with Sylvanas.

As for your last statement, not entirely sure what you mean here... are you implying that not being able to obtain more Valkyr is not a big deal?

[Kralljin]

I go merc and choose the side which offers the better reward, final result is already written anyway so who cares.

[KaPe]

Gilneas was under Garrosh's orders. (minus the plague thing)
Ashran has little to do with Sylvanas.

As for your last statement, not entirely sure what you mean here... are you implying that not being able to obtain more Valkyr is not a big deal?

No, it means that she was conspiring with Helya and nearly costed us a valuable ally in Stormheim, all for the benefit of Forsaken and only them. Let's also not forget that Helya wanted to keep you imprisoned in her realm and Sylvanas was like "oh, you're here? well, I don't care, I have stuff to do."

So that's two valuable assets she ignored because of her own goals - each of those could have costed us a victory back in Legion. Obviously a Horde champion survived on their own, but still. Either way, loudly screaming "but Genn!!!" could point out some inconvenient facts for her, which is why it's not an official reason.

[Zora-Prime]

No, it means that she was conspiring with Helya and nearly costed us a valuable ally in Stormheim, all for the benefit of Forsaken and only them. Let's also not forget that Helya wanted to keep you imprisoned in her realm and Sylvanas was like "oh, you're here? well, I don't care, I have stuff to do."

So that's two valuable assets she ignored because of her own goals - each of those could have costed us a victory back in Legion. Obviously a Horde champion survived on their own, but still. Either way, loudly screaming "but Genn!!!" could point out some inconvenient facts for her, which is why it's not an official reason.

Gotcha!
Then again taking away the ability to create more forsaken (thus ensuring they die out eventually), wouldn't sit well with me if I was the leader of said forsaken.
It might make want to burn a certain tree, where a lot of dog people tend to live.

[Doffen]

Funny, I seem to recall Sylvanas invading his homeland, blighting it and killing his son.

The what-about-Stormheim card will be brought up into the end of this world so better get used to it. Genn acting on a personal level seems to fly by some people. "Oh Sylvanas was in Gilneas and did some stuff, we just forgot". Awesome questline for the Horde btw. Sylvanas in her prime.

Voted Kerr....sorry, Sylvanas. Saurfang the Cleaver is cool, but not cool enough as the Banshee Queen.