Has "Lost Honour" Affected Your Respect For Saurfang?

[KrakHed]

Nope, I liked Garrosh more because of that. His Garadar appearances (BC and "Beyond the Dark Portal") were pretty impactful for his character and made his arc much more enjoyable.

Some people might be mad about Saurfang's personal issues, but I (and I assume others) would be willing to overlook this entirely, perhaps even embrace it, if sorting them out didn't involve the Alliance.

To me, the Alliance being there is largely irrelevant. What matters is how much of Saurfang's actions come from himself and what his motives are. If Saurfang's motives are provided by the Alliance, that's what it'd take to ruin him for me. I don't see that happening here. I feel he's going to reexamine his priorities on his own for now, maybe with one last important figure to talk to before he settles on his outlook and plan.

Anduin himself has never been what Saurfang was afraid of. He was worried about the non-Anduin influence in the Alliance, or who Anduin might be later. Not the Anduin of now. To anyone with eyes, Anduin is a liability to the Alliance. He's holding them back. He muzzles the dog. He tries to talk peace when he should be waging war.

Looking at Anduin from Saurfang's perspective, now in that cell, I'd be seeing someone who refuses to win. I wouldn't be worried about what Anduin wants or is doing. I'd be worried about how long Anduin is going to be allowed to continue his self-sabotage before someone shoves him the fuck out of the way. What Anduin wants isn't the important factor.

And that's where I think the Alliance story is actually headed. Tyrande and Malfurion won't stand down. Even if Sylvanas is pushed out quite soon, any attempt by Anduin to stop the war is probably going to get some loud voices telling him to fuck off. The Void Elves and Alleria are going to push for Silvermoon, Tyrande will demand Saurfang's head, and Genn isn't necessarily going to take Anduin's side.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Ladies and gentleman, the average Saurfang supporter. We're not even downplaying Anduin here, we're just justifying it.

Like it or not, the current Horde isn't the same as the old Horde. That's what the whole arc of Saurfang is about - and how many supporters within the ranks are gradually turning against Sylvanas.

It's, quite literally, a war between the old and new Horde.

Right?

“You strive for peace when it suits you, little lion”

What does that even fucking mean, Sylvanas? When has Anduin ever not vied for peace?

Pretty much. Sylvanas does not aim for peace, she aims for control.

[Ishimada]

Unchanged, however I am excited to see, in which way his story's gonna lead. Sorry, I am not in the "I hate Saurfang" train. You can't eat all the sweets at once, or your stomach could explode.

[Jibjub]

I liked Saurfang...

But he must be hanged.

If he didn't like what Sylvanas was doing, he should have challenged her to Mak'gora... where he could have earned is honorable death.

This is war. Finally we have a leader who is doing what it takes to end it!

[Aucald]

Therein lies the rub. Eitrigg is a character ideologically opposed to Sylvanas, who nevertheless did not defect. Instead he stands by his principles and still wages the war all the same. He goes on and on about honor, but instead of whining in a cell or hiding out in a hut while rejecting Horde assistance in favour of the human king, he helps bring in people who share his ideology into the Horde. It will never happen, but a story wherein Saurfang gets a stroke and it's Eitrigg and the Mag'har and even that Kratos orc unseat Sylvanas and continue the war Orgrim-style, would be more preferable, because at least then the change within the Horde would come internally rather than externally and we can at least assume that something was learned from the last time we went through all this.

I guess that hinges on whether or not one thinks of Saurfang as "external," and if so, "external" to what context? The Horde in general, the Horde specifically under Sylvanas' regime, or the ideal of the Horde as originally codified and set into place by Thrall. For example - who is to say that if Saurfang accepted Rokhan's offer of freedom the first time, if Nathanos wouldn't have attempted to kill them all on sight (likely with an accusation that they were traitors for aiding Saurfang)? I'm of the opinion that Eitrigg is likely to be a key part of Saurfang's coalition - as he has remained in good standing with the bulk of the Horde even under Sylvanas' regime, and his word can curry great favor without who might otherwise buy into Sylvanas' stance on Saurfang being a traitor.

[Unholyground]

I am just tired of factions in general and we need to break the faction walls down IMO. These expansions are a waste of time, a stop gap in the overall story for $$.

[Deleted]

Like it or not, the current Horde isn't the same as the old Horde. That's what the whole arc of Saurfang is about - and how many supporters within the ranks are gradually turning against Sylvanas.

Again with this myth - the only opposition she is facing thus far is one orc in Saurfang, one random troll grunt, and one ineffectual tauren. Anything argued for in addition to this is exaggeration or speculation. It may turn out that more over time will turn against her, but as it stands, the opposition or number of people "turning" are no more than a handful (all of whom are traitors, which would give Sylvanas all the justification she needs to execute them anyway if the need called for it). I just wish people would stop exaggerating this idea when the current facts do not support it.

[Super Dickmann]

I guess that hinges on whether or not one thinks of Saurfang as "external," and if so, "external" to what context? The Horde in general, the Horde specifically under Sylvanas' regime, or the ideal of the Horde as originally codified and set into place by Thrall. For example - who is to say that if Saurfang accepted Rokhan's offer of freedom the first time, if Nathanos wouldn't have attempted to kill them all on sight (likely with an accusation that they were traitors for aiding Saurfang)? I'm of the opinion that Eitrigg is likely to be a key part of Saurfang's coalition - as he has remained in good standing with the bulk of the Horde even under Sylvanas' regime, and his word can curry great favor without who might otherwise buy into Sylvanas' stance on Saurfang being a traitor.

That will not change things. The very fact that you have to refer to Sylvanas' Horde as a regime, despite how feeble any and all resistance to it has been up to this point and that the Horde has been achieving her agenda up to this point speaks of the core problem here. The Horde will avoid any and all consequences for any of this. There will be no reexamination past "The bad woman did it" and no lessons will be learned of any particular value. We've been through all this before. The Horde being good boys who were just tricked into carrying out one act of aggression after another against an angelic enemy who wouldn't hurt another creature on god's kingdom wore thin years ago. A problem that, of course, could have been entirely sidestepped were the Alliance a remotely plausible enemy, in the way they were in Cataclysm or are now in Darkshore. Sadly, the most nuanced version of the Alliance in this expansion has been the one pre-boikingforging Saurfang and Sylvanas imagined in A Good War.

[SinR]

After the Cinematic!

Anduin: Spymaster.
Shaw: Yes, Your Majesty?
Anduin: You are to make sure that Saurfang escapes out of Alliance Territory.
Shaw: WHAT? Have you gone mad? You would let a Prisoner of War ESCAPE? So he can go back to that... WITCH... and tell her our secrets, our plans, anything and EVERYTHING he sees on his way back to Orgrimmar?
Anduin: Mattias...
Shaw: I would rather bury my blade in his back mere steps from the gates of Orgrimmar than let him reveal ANYTHING to that witch.
Anduin: He won't be going back to her.
Shaw: And what makes you so certain he won't?
Anduin: Honor.
Shaw: *deep thoughts* I see. I will dispatch an SI:7 Agent to track him, with specific orders that if he goes anywhere NEAR Horde Territory to kill on sight.
Anduin: That will do, Spymaster.

[Isilarya]

That will not change things. The very fact that you have to refer to Sylvanas' Horde as a regime, despite how feeble any and all resistance to it has been up to this point and that the Horde has been achieving her agenda up to this point speaks of the core problem here. The Horde will avoid any and all consequences for any of this. There will be no reexamination past "The bad woman did it" and no lessons will be learned of any particular value. We've been through all this before. The Horde being good boys who were just tricked into carrying out one act of aggression after another against an angelic enemy who wouldn't hurt another creature on god's kingdom wore thin years ago. A problem that, of course, could have been entirely sidestepped were the Alliance a remotely plausible enemy, in the way they were in Cataclysm or are now in Darkshore.

Because we arent, and havent, been given a CHOICE. I wanted as a horde and Silvermoon representative wanted to rip her conniving fucking head off the minute Darkshore happened. You see no dissent because Blizzard doesnt give us the tools to LET YOU SEE IT. Do you realize if player agency was entirely a thing she wouldnt have made it off that beach with how Horde players reacted during that event. Yet you talk of consequences needing to be in place for following her mindlessly. They cant, not because of story, because of the absolute shitstorm that would ensue from being punished when we werent ever on that train in our minds from the get go.

[Wildberry]

Like it or not, the current Horde isn't the same as the old Horde. That's what the whole arc of Saurfang is about - and how many supporters within the ranks are gradually turning against Sylvanas.

It's, quite literally, a war between the old and new Horde.

And I vastly prefer the Old Horde. That doesn't mean I'm going to overlook collaborating with the Alliance.

To me, the Alliance being there is largely irrelevant. What matters is how much of Saurfang's actions come from himself and what his motives are. If Saurfang's motives are provided by the Alliance, that's what it'd take to ruin him for me. I don't see that happening here. I feel he's going to reexamine his priorities on his own for now, maybe with one last important figure to talk to before he settles on his outlook and plan.

Anduin himself has never been what Saurfang was afraid of. He was worried about the non-Anduin influence in the Alliance, or who Anduin might be later. Not the Anduin of now. To anyone with eyes, Anduin is a liability to the Alliance. He's holding them back. He muzzles the dog. He tries to talk peace when he should be waging war.

Looking at Anduin from Saurfang's perspective, now in that cell, I'd be seeing someone who refuses to win. I wouldn't be worried about what Anduin wants or is doing. I'd be worried about how long Anduin is going to be allowed to continue his self-sabotage before someone shoves him the fuck out of the way. What Anduin wants isn't the important factor.

And that's where I think the Alliance story is actually headed. Tyrande and Malfurion won't stand down. Even if Sylvanas is pushed out quite soon, any attempt by Anduin to stop the war is probably going to get some loud voices telling him to fuck off. The Void Elves and Alleria are going to push for Silvermoon, Tyrande will demand Saurfang's head, and Genn isn't necessarily going to take Anduin's side.

Saurfang might not be afraid of Anduin, but I don't think you're correct in assuming Saurfang views him as the laughingstock that everyone on the forums does. He did after all, in his own words, spare Anduin because he felt that Anduin was capable of stopping Sylvanas. In Saurfang's own judgment, Anduin was able to deal a blow against the Horde's Warchief that he himself was either unwilling or unable to do.

The fact remains that Saurfang leaves the Stockades after admitting to sparing Anduin in hopes that Anduin would be able to "stop" the Horde's Warchief, after Anduin says "I can't stop her... not alone."

That Saurfang is even willing to consider this is unpalatable. I know I've referenced Doomhammer on this subject before, but it's worth repeating. After finding out from his exiled friend that Blackhand was largely a puppet and Gul'dan's Shadow Council was actually running the show and had corrupted the Orcish race and bound their will to demons, does Doomhammer do what Saurfang did? Does he throw himself at the mercy of Llane and Lothar and conspire with them to stop Blackhand? No. He knows exactly what needs to be done, but he sits on the information and waits.

After Gul'dan gets put into a coma and Blackhand is dealing with the fallout from a failed assault on Stormwind, Doomhammer makes his move, challenges Blackhand and crushes his skull. He uses torture to glean the location of the Shadow Council, and kills them too. Then he burns Stormwind, and prepares to launch a new, larger war for complete control of the known world.

Compare that to Saurfang. I realize that Saurfang isn't capable of being Doomhammer. He has his own journey, his own struggles and so on. But there's really no excuse for this nonsense with the Alliance. In his own view, at the latter end of "A Good War" he assesses that this war "won't end in a stalemate." And yet despite all that, he's willing to not only let Anduin live (after judging him to be a threat), but begin a journey to depose Sylvanas with Anduin's blessing.

From the information and perspective Saurfang has to work with, deposing Sylvanas, or weakening the Horde in any way will likely have pretty severe consequences for the Horde he cares about.

With regard to the idea that the war is continuing, that's unlikely. It'd be nice, but I doubt it's in the cards. Tyrande and Malfurion are disobeying Anduin now. They'll likely have another wonderful moment like Tyrande herself had in the Krasarang Scenario with Varian. Considering they neutered Genn's dialogue for no reason on 8.1's PTR, I don't think we're going to see a militant Genn disobeying Anduin. If it were going to happen, why make the dialogue more conciliatory towards him?

[Super Dickmann]

Because we arent, and havent, been given a CHOICE. I wanted as a horde and Silvermoon representative wanted to rip her conniving fucking head off the minute Darkshore happened. You see no dissent because Blizzard doesnt give us the tools to LET YOU SEE IT. Do you realize if player agency was entirely a thing she wouldnt have made it off that beach with how Horde players reacted during that event. Yet you talk of consequences needing to be in place for following her mindlessly. They cant, not because of story, because of the absolute shitstorm that would ensue from being punished when we werent ever on that train in our minds from the get go.

I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by telling me this. I'm well aware. I've in fact pointed this out repeatedly before. For the narrative to take place, the Horde must be a windvane completely devoid of principle. The Horde that followed Sylvanas after Teldrassil and Lordaeron would have no breaking point, especially not one caused by the raising of one rando enemy and that same Horde didn't give one fuck about Saurfang. On the other hand, the Horde that would stand with Saurfang would never have taken part in the events listed above in the first place and Sylvanas would've been overthrown by now. For this character drama to take place, the entire collective of the Horde has to be taken behind the barn and shot, regardless of what stripe it is.

[Sithalos]

The Saurfang I know wouldn't have been captured in the first place.

[Dalheim]

My respect for him was never in doubt.

The fact that he said ''What I WANT, IS MY HORDE BACK!'', made me love him even more.

[KrakHed]

Therein lies the rub. Eitrigg is a character ideologically opposed to Sylvanas, who nevertheless did not defect. Instead he stands by his principles and still wages the war all the same. He goes on and on about honor, but instead of whining in a cell or hiding out in a hut while rejecting Horde assistance in favour of the human king, he helps bring in people who share his ideology into the Horde. It will never happen, but a story wherein Saurfang gets a stroke and it's Eitrigg and the Mag'har and even that Kratos orc unseat Sylvanas and continue the war Orgrim-style, would be more preferable, because at least then the change within the Horde would come internally rather than externally and we can at least assume that something was learned from the last time we went through all this.

@KrakHed

That does not dispel his mistakes. No more than unseating Sylvanas will magically make the Horde not complicit in everything that happened up to the point she was unseated, especially if she is unseated because of external intervention, as is the case now by default. "His" Horde was complicit and indeed enabling of allowing this to happen, but the narrative will not explore this for a moment. It will not explore the effect that the Horde's actions have had on the people of the Alliance. It will sweep these things under the rug as it did Jaina and Katherine randomly deciding Daelin was wrong apropo of nothing in a war that validated him. I shit on Saurfang a lot and on Anduin as well, but the defining moment my complete contempt for this entire plotline was cemented dates back to when Genn forgave the Forsaken. It's at that point that any moral narrative it means to go on with is lost, because it's completely one-sided. It's founded on pretending fundamentally incompatible people can live together in love and harmony if only one person were gone and all the history and suffering of people up to this point doesn't matter.

Saurfang turning down Horde assistance means nothing to me, since he made his stance clear. He's reached a breaking point, and he wants to dissociate from Sylvanas.

If he leaves the cell with Rokhan, he has to escape the cell with Rokhan and make it back to Nathanos. The goal was to take everyone back to Orgrimmar, where he'd fall back into Sylvanas's hands. Right now, he's not feeling the Mak'gora in him and has mixed feelings about multiple issues. Returning to Sylvanas is his line right now.

What Anduin offers him, that the Horde doesn't, is a way to leave his cell with absolutely zero strings attached. SI:7 arranges it so he doesn't even need to worry about guards. He's given no instructions, no directions, no nothing. All things considered, it makes sense to me. I'm not going to get jealous over it. It's a practical choice considering his issues.

One option returns him to Sylvanas, the other one leaves him free to act.

And yes, the Horde is complicit. Saurfang full well knows that he's complicit. That is the very root of Saurfang's inaction. I don't think the narrative will fail to acknowledge this, because I damned well think the narrative is acknowledging it. Saurfang is complicit as fuck. Tyrande calls him out as being complicit as fuck. Saurfang is avoiding taking action or a leadership position himself, because he feels complicit as fuck. He wants someone who isn't complicit to unseat Sylvanas, and that sure as hell isn't him.

I think this war will outlive Sylvanas. It may deescalate in areas, but Anduin himself is prophesied to fuck up and "serve the master" in some way. Likely unknowingly, through his idiotic actions. Though I can understand why no one believes he actually will be depicted as truly failing, because he really does look a lot like a Mary Sue so far.

But as low points set up highs, highs can set up lows. The Alliance is winning right now. Mere weeks away from righteous victory.

What happens if Anduin fucks this up?

[CasualFilth]

Saurfang is an idiot and a hypocrite. Can't lose my respect when it wasn't there to begin with.

[SoundOfGuns]

Nope? He praises himself and his honor all the time, dares to preach to others about morals and others and never face the consequences of what he did. If he would allow the Draenei to put him under trial, I would respect him. Otherwise it is more likely that he is a narcassist who uses his guilt as a mark of honor to prove his moral superiority. Which makes him worse than Sylvanas, who at least accepts that she is not a good person and never will be one again.

She doesn't tho. Where exactly does Sylvanas accept she is not a good person beyond going sarcastic? Sylvanas seems very clearly believing she is absolutely in the right. There is no "Im doing bad for the right reasons." she simply does this and the whole deal with "AZerItE WOulD bE a TERRibLE THreAT To ThE HOrde" is just such a lame excuse, and written in the book in a way that i really won't buy she actually believes that. She also has no conscious. Saurfang does. ...Pretending that Saurfang is worse than Sylvanas is... Well, the kind of argument a Sylvanas-Fan would make to make Saurfang look bad.

Saurfang to me is simply going through a crisis because he lost his honor for a moment and then snapping out of his undying loyalty to the Warchief that the Horde is depicted as having for no good reason. After all it rebelled against Garrosh and Sylvanas is arguably 10 times worse already and well be much worse then SoO-Garrosh very soon. Saurfang always went with the Horde, always defended it, always protected it and was always honorable. ALWAYS till to this one move. He did a lot more then attacking WoW's very own Damsel in Distress aka. Male Druid Peach in a reflex to protect his Warchief and while the Alliance was the enemy he was never a Warmonger and treated them with respect, which his son did learn so well that he wasn't even on bad terms with Bolvar. Calling him a coward or honorless, judging him as worse than the Bitchqueen over that move or over his disapproval for Sylvanas towards Anduin is entirely dismissive of everything else outside of these events...

Saurfang is an idiot and a hypocrite. Can't lose my respect when it wasn't there to begin with.

What a ...well elaborated and totally sound opinion im sure. ... If the character never had your respect you probably aren't really on the list of people who's attention matters anyway. Alliance player, butthurt or both i guess.

[Powerogue]

Slightly more, though still worrying about the possibility of him defecting. I mostly feel sad for the guy. Sylvanas has done nothing but push him away when all he ever wanted was to be a soldier and fight and die for the Horde.

She used him to further her goals, then threw him and everything he stood for away like an old tissue. "Honor means nothing to a corpse."

And I vastly prefer the Old Horde. That doesn't mean I'm going to overlook collaborating with the Alliance.

Yes, we all know you'd drink demon blood as long as the warchief told you to. I'm disturbed by the growing percentage that agree with your sentiment though. I get that this is a video game but people are seemingly A OK with turning the horde into the evil faction.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Again with this myth - the only opposition she is facing thus far is one orc in Saurfang, one random troll grunt, and one ineffectual tauren. Anything argued for in addition to this is exaggeration or speculation. It may turn out that more over time will turn against her, but as it stands, the opposition or number of people "turning" are no more than a handful (all of whom are traitors, which would give Sylvanas all the justification she needs to execute them anyway if the need called for it). I just wish people would stop exaggerating this idea when the current facts do not support it.

Garona, Thalyssra, Baine, Lor'themar, Saurfang are all proeminent figures that has outright disagreed, either now or in 8.1, with Sylvanas. Thalyssra even go as far as saying that she regrets joining the Horde and see too many similar tactics to those of the Legion in it.

At best, she has some loyalist - Nathanos, which is basically the Malkorok of Sylvanas - and of course the same good old Gallywix. Well, he's mostly a money loyalist.

Saurfang is not unlike Thrall, in the sense that he's neutral toward the Alliance and believe in Honor above all. You can personally like the new Horde, that's fine. That's also why the questline in 8.1 allows you to choose. The fact that there is disagreement is the core of what Blizzard wants to do with the Horde - they want the players within its ranks to be divided.

[Aucald]

That will not change things. The very fact that you have to refer to Sylvanas' Horde as a regime, despite how feeble any and all resistance to it has been up to this point and that the Horde has been achieving her agenda up to this point speaks of the core problem here. The Horde will avoid any and all consequences for any of this. There will be no reexamination past "The bad woman did it" and no lessons will be learned of any particular value. We've been through all this before. The Horde being good boys who were just tricked into carrying out one act of aggression after another against an angelic enemy who wouldn't hurt another creature on god's kingdom wore thin years ago. A problem that, of course, could have been entirely sidestepped were the Alliance a remotely plausible enemy, in the way they were in Cataclysm or are now in Darkshore. Sadly, the most nuanced version of the Alliance in this expansion has been the one pre-boikingforging Saurfang and Sylvanas imagined in A Good War.

Sylvanas' Horde is a regime - the position of Warchief is not immutable, nor is it eternal. The abdication of Thrall, the violent overthrow of Garrosh, and the death and replacement of Vol'jin make that readily apparent. I think what you and many other people are confusing is the nature of the story being told. You're not watching the aftermath of a coup already in progress, you're watching the first formative steps of one that will be taking place. Saurfang's story right now is essentially an in-game version of what "Shadows of the Horde" was for Vol'jin - one individual's struggle with where they should stand in their own world, coming to grips with what must be done, what must be sacrificed, and what allowances must be made in order to do what they feel is right. Anduin is Saurfang's version of Tyrathan Khort, a foil against which he must define himself, and a mirror against which he can see himself in a new perspective.

The theme here for the Horde is the question of loyalty vs honor, or perhaps loyalty vs. duty if you prefer to avoid the overly-stigmatized term of "honor." The plot for the Horde will arrive at its peak when the Horde as a whole has to answer the question posed - do we follow the orders of our Warchief, or do we do what is right in the greater sense?