Anduin rallies people to his cause; Sylvanas pushes them away.

[Rafoel]

Sylvanas actually creates valid strategies and plans - the losses of the Horde come from shitty writing and "necessity" of Alliance having victories despite only doing whats "honorable". Battle for Undercity is best example - Sylvanas had everything planned, with plan B and C following it, Alliance tactics was just charging in - 3 times they fell straight into Sylvanas trap, 3 times they were saved by Deus ex Machina.

Similarly with Derek - what Sylvanas is trying to do is actually excellent plan. I half seriously expect this cuck Baine to ruin whole plan by telling his friend Anduin what Derek's true purpose is. Still, either that, or this plan will fail too with absurd coincidence and Alliance luck.

[Arrashi]

I wouldn't call pheromone control into "Must...serve....boi...king..." rallying.

Also he sure as hell rallied night elves.

[Deleted]

One can hope the Alliance and Horde splinter into two separate factions so we then have four factions.

Alliance: Stormwind Humans, Bronzebeard Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Gnomes & Lightforged.

Wardens: Night Elves, Worgen, Kul'tirans & Draenei

Horde: Orcs, Darkspears, Mag'har, Tauren, Highmountain & Goblins.

Sylvanas' Horde: Undead, Blood Elves, Nightborne & Zandalari.

Zandalari with Sylvanas is too far.Trade Goblins with Zandalari.

[Amaterasu65]

One can hope the Alliance and Horde splinter into two separate factions so we then have four factions.

Alliance: Stormwind Humans, Bronzebeard Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Gnomes & Lightforged.

Wardens: Night Elves, Worgen, Kul'tirans & Draenei

Horde: Orcs, Darkspears, Mag'har, Tauren, Highmountain & Goblins.

Sylvanas' Horde: Undead, Blood Elves, Nightborne & Zandalari.

KulTirans will go with Anduin cause Jaina. Velen is also an Anduin follower.

Goblins will go with Sylvanas cause she allows their leader to do what he wants.

The Zandalari will go with Orcs and Tauren cause they fit their sense of honor. Talanji is sceptical about Sylvanas' methods.

[ausoin]

There is nothing to support the notion that the Horde was stretched too thin since SoO. Even the majority of the Orcs turned against Garrosh. In fact, most of the Orcs loyal to Garrosh in the raid turned out to be Dragonmaw and Mag'har. I.e. the Orcs that joined long after the formation of the New Horde. The core of Orc-kind did not follow him and that core was already doing fine against the Alliance before the addition of the Orcs like the Dragonmaw.

The Horde and the Alliance both suffered catastrophic losses against the Legion according to both sides. And the most loyal Garrosh soldiers was the entirety of the kor'kron the most elite Horde organizations like the 7th legion. Blizzard did say that after the SoO the Horde wasn't a superpower anymore, of course, Legion happened and the Alliance isn't also. But yeah SoO had an impact on the Horde overall power.

Meanwhile, Alliance lost their largest fortress on the planet to the Iron Horde, they lost the entirety of Taylor's expedition, they lost more than half of its forces at Lordaeron. Hell, by the parameters of faction strength established by Blizzard in A Good War, the Alliance shouldn't have been able to even successfully land in Tirisfal. The only reason why the entire Alliance army isn't currently feeding the region's plagued fish is its monumental plot armor

.

Plot armor? Are you joking? How about the Horde plot armor that the Alliance didn't bring a single gas mask or any counter measure to be used against the blight? How about the plot armor that the Horde are invading Kul Tiras with fleets they said they don't have any? How about the plot armor that a buffed Tyrande and Malfurion dont wipe out everything in their path in 2 seconds instead of having a stalemate with freaking Nathanos and far fewer enemy forces?

Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande
Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable
on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would
be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began

And Horde is still ahead of the Alliance in terms of allied races. Lightforged Draenei had been hunted by the Legion for millennia and had to constantly hide from them. Void Elves are a bunch of rejects from Silvermoon. Dark Irons had already been in the Alliance and as such they aren't actually an addition in BfA. Kul Tirans are the only bigger force and they are roughly equivalent to the Zandalari.

Lightforged Draenei= Maghar both elite forces nearly wiped out, no clear advantage there.
Dark irons= NIghtborne both bring two cities for their factions, Shadowforge with its massive capacity to make war golems and the general industry and Suramar with its arcane knowledge, so no advantage there.
Void elves= Highmountain Tauren,one is of lower numbers but extremely efficient and resorscfull, the other brute strength and higher numbers so again equal.
And finally the Kul Tiran and Zandalari one more powerfull then the other before 8.1. Now one is a dying empire with just 1/3 zones in their control, and even that is in a sorry state, and the fleet in ruins.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas actually creates valid strategies and plans - the losses of the Horde come from shitty writing and "necessity" of Alliance having victories despite only doing whats "honorable". Battle for Undercity is best example - Sylvanas had everything planned, with plan B and C following it, Alliance tactics was just charging in - 3 times they fell straight into Sylvanas trap, 3 times they were saved by Deus ex Machina.

Similarly with Derek - what Sylvanas is trying to do is actually excellent plan. I half seriously expect this cuck Baine to ruin whole plan by telling his friend Anduin what Derek's true purpose is. Still, either that, or this plan will fail too with absurd coincidence and Alliance luck.

Shitty writing and necessitys? How about not bringing any countermesures when attacking the most known blight production area? The Alliance leaders are made to look like dumbasses just for the sake of Sylvanas charachter. And the Horde losses comes from shitty writing? Please..

[Mehrunes]

Shaw attacked the horde? The goblins pushed everyone out of Silithus, an act that is easily taken as aggressive. Then, SI:7 set up operations. Shaw retaliated against the goblins.

Goblins pushed out everyone out of the Horde's camp. Which is Horde's right in their own camps.

Sylvanas actually creates valid strategies and plans - the losses of the Horde come from shitty writing and "necessity" of Alliance having victories despite only doing whats "honorable". Battle for Undercity is best example - Sylvanas had everything planned, with plan B and C following it, Alliance tactics was just charging in - 3 times they fell straight into Sylvanas trap, 3 times they were saved by Deus ex Machina.

Well, no. The second time they were saved by absolutely nothing. When Anduin and his forces charged like morons in the southern side of the city right into Nathanos' and Lor'themar's forces. They were met with Blight tanks. Just after Blight fucked them up in their assault on the main gate.

What did the Alliance do? Alleria warped in with some Void Elves and Gnomes and said some bullshit about how they evened the odds. Except they warped in on the side with Anduin, so they offered nothing against the Blight. The Alliance survived (after already suffering monumental losses) the previous Blight attack only because Jaina arrived out of nowhere and froze it.

Here that was not an option, cuz Alliance would also get frozen. It's just Alleria's arrival makes the Horde not deploy the Blight for no reason whatsoever. It's nothing more than pure, unfiltered plot armor.

The Horde and the Alliance both suffered catastrophic losses against the Legion according to both sides. And the most loyal Garrosh soldiers was the entirety of the kor'kron the most elite Horde organizations like the 7th legion. Blizzard did say that after the SaO the Horde wasn't a superpower anymore, of course, Legion happened and the Alliance isn't also. But yeah SaO had an impact on the Horde overall power.

Yes, they lost the Kor'kron. And? The Kor'kron in SoO were almost exclusively Mag'har. As such what you said doesn't address what I said whatsoever.

Plot armor? Are you joking? How about the Horde plot armor that the Alliance didn't bring a single gas mask or any counter measure to be used against the blight? How about the plot armor that the Horde are invading Kul Tiras with fleets they said they don't have any? How about the plot armor that a buffed Tyrande and Malfurion dont wipe out everything in their path in 2 seconds instead of having a stalemate with freaking Nathanos and far fewer enemy forces?

Probably because gas masks aren't a counter measure against the Blight? They are a counter measure against just the vapor it leaves, not against the actual Blight. The strongest strains of Blight melted stone in Southshore, you aren't going to protect yourself from that with a mask. And the Horde never said they don't have a fleet, they said they lost a significant part of it in the fight against the Legion. Other than that, as said in A Good War, their fleet was still strong enough to potentially destroy the Alliance fleet even in an attack on Stormwind Harbor, where Alliance would have support from the ground.

And how about Tyrande never in the history of Warcraft showing some gigantic offensive combat affinity? She only has some defensive feats like creating strong barriers, but nothing in particular on the offense. And even her shields happen when Elune babysits her. When she doesn't Tyrande gets defeated by random Orc archers or a river. And Malfurion is currently recuperating from his wounds. He still kills a ton of Horde soldiers.

Lightforged Draenei= Maghar both elite forces nearly wiped out, no clear advantage there.
Dark irons= NIghtborne both bring two cities for their factions, Shadowforge with its massive capacity to make war golems and the general industry and Suramar with its arcane knowledge, so no advantage there.
Void elves= Highmountain Tauren,one is of lower numbers but extremely efficient and resorscfull, the other brute strength and higher numbers so again equal.
And finally the Kul Tiran and Zandalari one more powerfull then the other before 8.1. Now one is a dying empire with just 1/3 zones in their control, and even that is in a sorry state, and the fleet in ruins.

Mag'har are the remaining forces of an empire that spanned a continent. Lightforged Draenei started as a bunch of Draenei left behind and it went only downhill for them since then. For 25k years. The moment they stopped hiding at the start of 7.3 they were immediately shot down out of the sky. Comparing the two is asinine.

You completely (and likely deliberately) ignored the point about Dark Irons. They are Alliance since Cata. They aren't a new addition in BfA. They are part of the forces the Alliance entered BfA with. And the previous time Alliance was fighting a war against the Alliance with the Dark Irons supporting them, the Alliance was still losing. Nightborne on the other hand are an actually new addition.

Your attempts at dismissing clear number advantage of the Highmountain Tauren over the Void Elves are nothing more than mental gymnastics.

Except Kul Tirans are brought into the Alliance specifically to balance out the Zandalari. Both factions barely control their home zone at the start of the expansion. Both deal with the problems in the other two during the leveling quests. They only got an advantage only in 8.1 after Alliance attacked them shortly after they dealt with an Old God. The next two raids are about Naga attacks against the Kul'Tirans and Kul Tiras will bear the brunt of their forces, equalizing the two again.

[Spichora]

I dont really understand when people are saying that Alliance is fighting on two fronts and that is the reason why Alliance forced are streched thin. Take a look at Horde itself. Zuldazar needs to be reinforced, they are running war campaign and fighting in Arathi. In addition they have dispatched big force in Darkshore with Nathanos to raise dead Night Elves.

Since MoP I believed that Alliance had bigger force then Horde. Thats just sloppy writing. Unending number of forces is just not attractive.

And I hope Anduin is burning his fallen soldiers.

[ausoin]

Yes, they lost the Kor'kron. And? The Kor'kron in SoO were almost exclusively Mag'har. As such what you said doesn't address what I said whatsoever.

The Kor kron were completely defunct afterwards the battle, a loss of an entire elite organization is a loss not matter how much you sugar coat it. And you left out the fact that Blizzard said the HOrde wasn't as supwerpower anymore.

Probably because gas masks aren't a counter measure against the Blight? They are a counter measure against just the vapor it leaves, not against the actual Blight. The strongest strains of Blight melted stone in Southshore, you aren't going to protect yourself from that with a mask. And the Horde never said they don't have a fleet, they said they lost a significant part of it in the fight against the Legion. Other than that, as said in A Good War, their fleet was still strong enough to potentially destroy the Alliance fleet even in an attack on Stormwind Harbor, where Alliance would have support from the ground.

The forsaken are with gas masks spreading the blight amongst the Alliance forces, and it's not just the gas masks power of the shamans like the wind also works as Thrall cleared out the blight in Undercity. And you are completly immune with the gas mask during the scenario.

And how about Tyrande never in the history of Warcraft showing some gigantic offensive combat affinity? She only has some defensive feats like creating strong barriers, but nothing in particular on the offense. And even her shields happen when Elune babysits her. When she doesn't Tyrande gets defeated by random Orc archers or a river. And Malfurion is currently recuperating from his wounds. He still kills a ton of Horde soldiers.

Tyrande in Darkshore wiped out the entire Forsaken outpost and the Horde forces attacking the NE during the ritual.

Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande
Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable
on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would
be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began

Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande
Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable
on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would
be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began

Malfurion Stormrage and Tyrande
Whisperwind. The leaders of the night elves were powerful, dangerous, and perhaps even unbeatable
on the field of battle. No matter how surprised the kaldorei would be by this attack, those two would
be a terror for the Horde once the fighting began

Mag'har are the remaining forces of an empire that spanned a continent. Lightforged Draenei started as a bunch of Draenei left behind and it went only downhill for them since then. For 25k years. The moment they stopped hiding at the start of 7.3 they were immediately shot down out of the sky. Comparing the two is asinine.

An empire that was completely crushed in almost every single battle and the remains of it turned to the fel. Dranei were a guerilla force compared to the Legion only idiots would face them head on without any support, guerrilla warfare is the only way to go. Surviving for 25k years all the while harassing the Legion is a big feat.

You completely (and likely deliberately) ignored the point about Dark Irons. They are Alliance since Cata. They aren't a new addition in BfA. They are part of the forces the Alliance entered BfA with. And the previous time Alliance was fighting a war against the Alliance with the Dark Irons supporting them, the Alliance was still losing. Nightborne, on the other hand, is an actually new addition.

Not all of the Dark Iron joined the Alliance only after they joined did Moira went to the Shadowforge.

Your attempts at dismissing clear number advantage of the Highmountain Tauren over the Void Elves are nothing more than mental gymnastics.

Lol, what? The void elves are much more resourceful, you know they are the reasons the Horde couldn't have used the Tide scepter because their magic was used in hiding their break in in the vault, and the transformation of Zandalari laser dinosaurs one of the most powerfull units in the Zandalari arsenal, and the ability to transform into other races like the blood trolls to assinate key targets and other advantages.

Except Kul Tirans are brought into the Alliance specifically to balance out the Zandalari. Both factions barely control their home zone at the start of the expansion. Both deal with the problems in the other two during the leveling quests. They only got an advantage only in 8.1 after Alliance attacked them shortly after they dealt with an Old God. The next two raids are about Naga attacks against the Kul'Tirans and Kul Tiras will bear the brunt of their forces, equalizing the two again.

Now whose doing the mental gymnastics, where did it say the Kul Tiras will suffer the brunt of the naga forces? Naga is attacking both sides. fact is Kul Tiras is stronger than ever right now while Zandalar had one disaster after another, even Talnji feared the Horde will abonded them.

Also naga balances out the Kul Tirans and the Zandalari? PLOT ARMOR OMG!!!!

[Kyphael]

KulTirans will go with Anduin cause Jaina. Velen is also an Anduin follower.

Goblins will go with Sylvanas cause she allows their leader to do what he wants.

The Zandalari will go with Orcs and Tauren cause they fit their sense of honor. Talanji is sceptical about Sylvanas' methods.

Jaina might see Anduin as a weak king and decide to side with the more vengeful faction for results.

Yeah, could definitely switch Goblins and Zandalari around.

Velen's crisis of faith leaves the door open to do different things with his character, though I'll admit I mostly put Draenei in with Wardens because I thought Lightforged would favor Stormwind's light-oriented following more and Wardens needed a fourth race. lol

[Amaterasu65]

Jaina might see Anduin as a weak king and decide to side with the more vengeful faction for results.

Yeah, could definitely switch Goblins and Zandalari around.

Velen's crisis of faith leaves the door open to do different things with his character, though I'll admit I mostly put Draenei in with Wardens because I thought Lightforged would favor Stormwind's light-oriented following more and Wardens needed a fourth race. lol

Draenei could ally with Night Elves since the Draenei had helped a group of priests in their leveling zone. Their first communication with a member of the Alliance was probably the NE.

Jaina and Anduin's relationship is not just a political one. He literally sees her as family and calls her auntie (lol).

[Ramz]

One can hope the Alliance and Horde splinter into two separate factions so we then have four factions.

Alliance: Stormwind Humans, Bronzebeard Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Gnomes & Lightforged.

Wardens: Night Elves, Worgen, Kul'tirans & Draenei

Horde: Orcs, Darkspears, Mag'har, Tauren, Highmountain & Goblins.

Sylvanas' Horde: Undead, Blood Elves, Nightborne & Zandalari.

No way Zandalari are total bros with Darkspears now, Talanji has a thing for Rokhan too.

[Kyphael]

No way Zandalari are total bros with Darkspears now, Talanji has a thing for Rokhan too.

She does? Huh. Must have missed that, then again I haven't finished all the Horde stories yet.

[Broken Fox]

Sylvanas was finally successful is breaking the faith between the alliance members. The splinters will start to tear them apart.

Tactical genius!

[Ramz]

She does? Huh. Must have missed that, then again I haven't finished all the Horde stories yet.

She showed concern over him in Nazmir, and assisted him in echo isles. She even called him "My dear Rokhan". He is very often beside her, and once you deliver urn to Atal'Dazar she admits she always admired Darkspears.

[Kyphael]

She showed concern over him in Nazmir, and assisted him in echo isles. She even called him "My dear Rokhan". He is very often beside her, and once you deliver urn to Atal'Dazar she admits she always admired Darkspears.

Ah, I do recall her interact with him in Nazmir. I guess we'll find out if a Darkspear/Zandalari hybrid has a hunch or not.

[Tetris Wizard]

My ultimate hope for BfA is that at the end, there will be no High King or Warchief.
Every race will have its own leader, but there won't be some all powerful person lording over the entire Alliance or Horde.