What happened to #NoChanges?

[Deleted]

Not really. You are making a bold claim. Simple as that.

Classic is DOOMED.

[Darkimpact]

Many private server players weren't really planning to play Classic and used #NoChanges more like a threat and a legitimate excuse to stay on private servers which was what they wanted to do in the first place. These people hate Blizzard with a passion and don't want anything to do with them. They want a Blizzard endorsed Nostalrius private server, nothing else will be good enough.

This is completely false. I dont know a single private server player who said they wont try Classic at this point from 5 guilds I raided with in the last 3 years.

NoChanges is a line people stand on the push Blizz as close to Vanilla as possible. No one cares about minor lighting or whatever, sharding, LFR, the current talent system, heirlooms, transmog, these are the thing people dont want to see. No one rational is crying about fixed bugs and how the grass looks. People want stable servers with no risk of shutdown with as few changes as possible, that's it. Saltlord retail people just like to strawman communities they decide are at odds with them over stupid tribalism. Go cheer on x football team, vote for x colored politicians, drink x beer only, keep it out of WoW.

[Eleccybubb]

This is completely false. I dont know a single private server player who said they wont try Classic at this point from 5 guilds I raided with in the last 3 years.

NoChanges is a line people stand on the push Blizz as close to Vanilla as possible. No one cares about minor lighting or whatever, sharding, LFR, the current talent system, heirlooms, transmog, these are the thing people dont want to see. No one rational is crying about fixed bugs and how th grass looks. People just like to strawman all day.

Exactly. Minor changes like the lighting and colourblind mode are great.

However things like LFR or using the original 2004/5 client are not.

[barrsftw]

So just to be clear....adding "in general" to something means "i cant prove this, but take it as fact and not just an opinion. buit you cant ask for any proof, because i clearly said "in general""

I wasn't stating anything as fact. If you took it that way, oops. Do you have proof that I stated it as fact? (See what I did there?) I stated what I know from my personal experiences and friends.. and I pretty clearly noted that in my comment by referencing why I felt that way.

I suggest you go read the OP (lol). At one point you at least claimed to welcome open discussion. The fact that every reply you have in this thread is negative and/or attacking someone with a different viewpoint determined that was a lie.

[Craaazyyy]

Those people were never going to be social or participate in more social aspects of the game to begin with.

thats not true at all

- - - Updated - - -

Uhm... their server tech has improved greatly over the years and things like sharding is why Legion and BFA had a smooth (ish) launch.

I think sharding just for the start of Classic is a necessary evil. It's either that or be stuck in dc limbo/lagfest forever.

Sharding won't be tied in with CRZ either for Classic. It will be separate instances of the zones on the same server just until the initial influx dies down a little.

On topic. As for "no changes". You were always going to get minor ones. Deal with it people. You were not going to be running Vanilla WoW on your Windows 98 PC with 512MB of RAM and your Geforce 4 card.

The current changes to it are fine. It's colourblind mode, the modern client and a few minor and barely noticeable lighting and animation tweaks.

they improved, but not the way they should've.. they still cant handle even 40 people in the same area without lagging, with 100+ its a shitshow

even pservers are able to withstand large groups of people nowadays

[Projectmars]

thats not true at all

Sure it is, there's tons of solo players out there that would rather not bother with interacting with others. LFG is a good tool for those kinds of people.

[HuxNeva]

With no sharding we meet those people who are on your server. In the end you need help from them and you might help them. Toxic jerkbags were shunned, good people came together. Good tanks were renowed.

yes I know sharding is not the same as CRZ, but with sharding I might miss out on X amount of people that runs around in the zone im in.

It feels more of a community from the get to(lvl 1) when you know that everyone you meet are on your server, for better or worse.

I don't think you understand.
With sharding everyone you meet is still from your server. There will never be people of other servers in your shards (that is CRZ, which will not be in Classic)
Without sharding the people you wouldn't meet because of it you still don't meet, but instead of being able to play just like you they would just be stuck in the very large and special 'queue shard' where they can't play at all.

[Ujimasa Hojo]

I wonder if quests involving killing characters who end up revealed as surviving in Cataclysm would be adjusted.

[Craaazyyy]

Sure it is, there's tons of solo players out there that would rather not bother with interacting with others. LFG is a good tool for those kinds of people.

people would be forced to communicate, many of them would actually communicate.. they would have to

and many of them being pretty much forced to communicate would end up loving it.. i know so many players that also used to be social in wow, but with all the changes to the game they stopped being social even tho they're still playing the game

[Projectmars]

people would be forced to communicate, many of them would actually communicate.. they would have to

and many of them being pretty much forced to communicate would end up loving it.. i know so many players that also used to be social in wow, but with all the changes to the game they stopped being social even tho they're still playing the game

You know the old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

A good portion of those people would likely rather quit then be forced to communicate, imo, since they wouldn't be able to do as much as they would like anymore. And I'm sure quite a few of those players that used to be social in WoW would probably join them if those changes that allowed them to not be as social were to be removed.

[Craaazyyy]

You know the old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

A good portion of those people would likely rather quit then be forced to communicate, imo, since they wouldn't be able to do as much as they would like anymore. And I'm sure quite a few of those players that used to be social in WoW would probably join them if those changes that allowed them to not be as social were to be removed.

with the 2nd part of your post you literally proved that im right

thanks, mate

also somehow people didnt quit back in the days when the game was actually growing.. they quit later on when the game became anti-social(obviously wasnt the only reason they quit, cuz it being anti-social isnt even the worst part about it imo)

[Projectmars]

with the 2nd part of your post you literally proved that im right

thanks, mate

also somehow people didnt quit back in the days when the game was actually growing.. they quit later on when the game became anti-social(obviously wasnt the only reason they quit, cuz it being anti-social isnt even the worst part about it imo)

Proved you right that people would quit over being forced to be more social? ok.

[Craaazyyy]

Proved you right that people would quit over being forced to be more social? ok.

the part where you said that people would quit over it even tho they used to be social b4 Blizzard made the game anti-social

but i doubt a lot of people would quit

but again it depends.. it definitely would be better for the game, but the game is fucked beyond just that.. so changing just that wouldnt really help a lot

[Boss Lady]

From very early on, there has been an extremely vocal group of players, on this forum and others, screaming that #NoChanges or they will leave. Various claims have been made, saying that if ANY changes are made:

- No one will play and the game will fail
- It wont be 'classic', but rather a new game
- New players wont be interested and will just play retail
- Vanilla players will reject it and stay on private servers

Plus many more obviously.

From day 1, outside of throwing the odd #NoChanges in a sarcastic and ironic way, i have said that Blizzard will make numerous changes to how vanilla was, but will drip feed them to the community, and present them in a way that the community will accept and even embrace them. "No way man, we will see it coming and reject the changes! #NoChanges!"

The changes are happening, some might be considered smaller (changes to animations, lighting, and graphics in general), some much larger (sharding confirmed for Classic). Now that it is obvious that Blizzard are making many changes from Vanilla into Classic, is the community pretty much just accepting it? Where do you sit with the change;

- Ignore them (no, those changes are not CONFIRMED, just a rumor)
- Justify them (Yeah but they HAD to make those changes and its only for launch!)
- Accept them (It wont ruin the game for me, so i dont mind)
- Embrace them (I think the changes are mostly for the good of the game)

But thats just my opinion, i would LOVE to hear your thoughts on the matter in the comments down below.
LETS JUST JUMP INTO IT.

My thoughts are this. People who were really truly champions for the inclusion of Classic/Vanilla as optional version to come from the souce (Blizzard) really enjoyed the popular private server that shall not be named (Nostralius). That server did in fact make some changes that were a departure from what a purist would view as solely vanilla. A working 'charge' spell comes to mind. So I think the REAL community (those that have been asking for this for a loooooong time). Are okay with some changes and are rational enough to know that some changes are appropriate and necessary.

My second thought is this. The more changes you make to the game, the less "vanilla" it is. Without going into my personal thoughts or feelings about what is or isn't vanilla, I will say this. The less vanilla it is, the easier it will be for the community to reject it as NOT what they asked for... IF classic servers are a failure.

Blizzard: "See we were right all along."
Blizzard: "You think you do, but you don't."

Community: "This was NOT what we asked for."

And truthfully, the community would be right.

There is a level of brokenness, incompleteness, or thoughtlessness that MUST be accepted and tolerated (from a design/development perspective) for the game to resemble vanilla. Technical hurdles can be addressed for sure, as long as the community can't really tell the difference.

That being said, I think the struggle this community is going to have (particularly early on) is the number of people who will be playing who aren't/weren't actual fans of vanilla or private servers. Who are both intentionally and inadvertently going to ruin the experience for others.

My prediction is that it will be THOSE people, who will design mods, that seeks to mirror existing QoL changes that exist in retail that will fundamentally change the experience for everyone.

[kamuimac]

Those people were never going to be social or participate in more social aspects of the game to begin with. Not that raiding participation prior to LFR, and currently when ignoring LFR participation rates is 15% or less of the WoW population. 50% of players in game since LFR came out do it.

this doesnt mean those people wont play classic.

they will .

most of them will just do it differently

they will spend most of time playing it on leveling all classes to max level instead wasting time on gearing up toons .

i know i will play classic like that . when i will be really bored with modern wow i will spend one or 2 evenings every couple of weeks on leveling my toons then .

it means it will probaby take me 2-3 years to get 1 toon to max level but i will get there eventually just because leveling 46th alt on retail wont be any more interesting then that

[The Stormbringer]

both are a shitshow.. especially if sharding is implemented permanently in every zone

Blizzard: We will be implementing temporary sharding in starting zones at launch to alleviate crowding and allow people to progress on to later content.
Crazy People: OMFG! Blizzard is putting sharding into the whole game FOREVER! RUINEDDDDD!!!!!11

[Boss Lady]

social

social

It always cracks me up when people talk about the social aspect of the game, as if it was a positive experience. Worse is that they ignorantly assume that either:
(a) Blizzard fundamentally changed something that encouraged such "anti-social" behavior
(b) that a "new" breed or generation of player showed up and wrecked the experience for everyone

Let's address (a). If your natural inclination/tendency is to be "less social" if given the opportunity, then the social aspect of the game you refer to is a facade. People who wish to remain social will do so, which is why guilds, and endgame still exists. The fact that the majority of the community flocked to something that required less social interaction speaks volumes of the types of personalities that an mmo resonates with.

In regards to (b) this couldn't be further from the truth. The fact that WoW had such a relatively short run, and steady decline means that new blood isn't or wasn't being added to the game. This community actually REALLY sucks at times, and has been notoriously aggressive to "noobs" the few that were interested were quickly turned away.

Being that I am now in my early 30s, having started playing this game at the end of high school I have been able to see this community from start to finish. I teach at the high school level now and my husband teaches at the college level, and we both still play WoW. Through college the game remained strong, and the first few years of teaching I was able to relate to many of the students because of our shared interests (WoW). I was "cool" being not only a female who played video games, but one that played WoW (bear in mind I had no real delusions of my "popularity"). There came a period of time shortly after WotLK where it stopped being "cool" that I played WoW. It became, "Oh I remember that game... you still play it? Lame!" The "new" entitled generation did not ruin the game... they aren't playing it at all.

The majority of people playing the game, are those that have been here for a LONG time, those of us too attached to our characters and accomplishments to the sensible thing... and walk away. Blizzard saw the writing on the wall. The game was not attracting new blood, and in order to stay relevant, it needed to change WITH the people playing it. I am NOT the same person I was in high school, and had the game NOT changed, I wouldn't be playing it today. At nearly 33 I am the person, (a veteran) that changed the face of WoW. The game would not have lasted as long as it has, if it didn't change. You're welcome!

Nevermind the fact your entire view of the social aspect of WoW, nay all MMOs is a bright shade of pink. These types of games never were social, at least not in any healthy sense of the word. The game has always bred a level of codependency and narcissism. I don't know a single person who has actually raided at any sort of competitive level, that doesn't have stories of people acting like the most deplorable pieces of shit on the planet.

Case in point, Mr. "More dots" (the loud guy leading the Onyxia fight) that video/sound clip wouldn't have been nearly as funny as it was, if it didn't strike a chord with people who have raided with such a "leader". The willingness of people to put up with poor behavior all in the pursuit of "phat lootz" speaks to the codependency issues of this social mecca you remember so fondly. The willingness to treat people like that speaks to the narcissism.

[Craaazyyy]

It always cracks me up when people talk about the social aspect of the game, as if it was a positive experience. Worse is that they ignorantly assume that either:
(a) Blizzard fundamentally changed something that encouraged such "anti-social" behavior
(b) that a "new" breed or generation of player showed up and wrecked the experience for everyone

Let's address (a). If your natural inclination/tendency is to be "less social" if given the opportunity, then the social aspect of the game you refer to is a facade. People who wish to remain social will do so, which is why guilds, and endgame still exists. The fact that the majority of the community flocked to something that required less social interaction speaks volumes of the types of personalities that an mmo resonates with.

In regards to (b) this couldn't be further from the truth. The fact that WoW had such a relatively short run, and steady decline means that new blood isn't or wasn't being added to the game. This community actually REALLY sucks at times, and has been notoriously aggressive to "noobs" the few that were interested were quickly turned away. Being that I am now in my early 30s, having started playing this game at the end of high school I have been able to see this community from start to finish. I teach at the high school level now and my husband teaches at the college level, and we both still play WoW. Through college the game remained strong, and the first few years of teaching I was able to relate to many of the students because of our shared interests (WoW). I was "cool" being not only a female who played video games, but one that played WoW (bear in mind I had no real delusions of my "popularity"). There came a period of time shortly after WotLK where it stopped being "cool" that I played WoW. It became, "Oh I remember that game... you still play it? Lame!" The "new" entitled generation did not ruin the game... they aren't playing it at all. The majority of people playing the game, are those that have been here for a LONG time, those of us too attached to our characters and accomplishments to the sensible thing... and walk away. Blizzard saw the writing on the wall. The game was not attracting new blood, and in order to stay relevant, it needed to change WITH the people playing it. I am NOT the same person I was in high school, and had the game NOT changed, I wouldn't be playing it today. At nearly 33 I am the person, (a veteran) that changed the face of WoW. The game would not have lasted as long as it has, if it didn't change. You're welcome!

Nevermind the fact your entire view of the social aspect of WoW, nay all MMOs is a bright shade of pink. These types of games never were social, at least not in any healthy shape of the word. The game has always bred a level of codependency and narcissism. I don't a single person who has actually raided at any sort of competitive level, that doesn't have stories of people acting like the most deplorable pieces of shit on the planet.

Case in point, Mr. "More dots" that video/sound clip wouldn't have been nearly as funny as it was, if it didn't strike a chord with people who have raided with such a "leader". The willingness of people to put up with poor behavior all in the pursuit of "phat lootz" speaks to the codependency issues of this social mecca you remember so fondly. The willingness to treat people like that speaks to the narcissism.

literally a pile of shit addressing something i didnt even mean.. especially that point b

its not players who ruined experience for others its blizzard who started catering to these players for no reason

also just because for you being social means being bullied, because you cant stand negativity - its your problem, not mine or anyone elses

also i bet you never really played the game to begin with if you think that the game had to change so drastically to stay afloat

all the changes actually alienated the current(at the time) playerbase and most of them obviously quit(either completely or they just try each expansion for a month and then quit, cuz the game is being ruined more and more). Also i mentioned that the game being anti-social isnt even the main reason people quit, but whatever..

also if you believe that the majority of current playerbase are oldschool, then you're delusional

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard: We will be implementing temporary sharding in starting zones at launch to alleviate crowding and allow people to progress on to later content.
Crazy People: OMFG! Blizzard is putting sharding into the whole game FOREVER! RUINEDDDDD!!!!!11

yeah, imagine in 2018 believing into what blizzard are saying

[Jikate-Stormrage]

I’m all for #nochanges. But let me explain my definition.

#nochanges is a goal I wish the developers to keep in mind with every action they take. The current incarnation of WOW for me is a far cry to what the original was; or as I believe the intent was.

I don’t want their “new and flashy” ideas permeating my classic experience.

If sharping in the first few days/weeks results in fewer, more stable servers after timely removal... I’m ok with that. It enhances the community when it doesn’t lead to mergers after removal due to the games population stabalizing.

If they left in options to increase water shading or fidelity, but there is an option to shut it off then I am alright with that. Those are client side options. Meaning only you will see the better shades. No one else will be forced into it. Even from a competitive stand point, what you see on your screen is not what I see on mine. People used to have polar bear skins in classic. They were illegal, but no one else saw you as a polar bear.

Any other QOL changes I would be against. Classic wasn’t about QOL in your daily gameplay. Communities should by and large be left alone to govern themselves (outside of normal expected Blizzard actions for 3rd party hacks etc).

All said, I want the return of vanilla because I loved it, even it’s downsides. I don’t have rose tinted goggles, I know the game wasn’t perfect. But the social requirements inherent in the systems were far closer to perfect than I feel in the retail version. And I have only recently quit retail due to lack of trust in the current development stages (when you have to kick class development down the road because you have to try and fix a system fuck up that was easily foreseeable... yeah, some people will lose their trust in you).

I do not speak for anyone else, just myself. I’m excited about a vanilla release that may eventually get stale, but it sure beats wondering what part of a game I used to love will be cut next patch/expansion in the name of “ease of gameplay”. I’m not the masses that Blizzard develops for anymore. It used to be you found your own enjoyment off the rails. Some people never walked into a raid or bg and enjoyed the hell out of vanilla. Now, Blizzards target demographic is akin to sitting on the sidewalk as the Blizzard parade drives down Main Street throwing “content” and “rewards” out as they drive by. You either like the candy you get or wait for the next parade. Only to find out the next parade only delivers the same cheap candy only this time it doesn’t even have a wrapper on. Doesn’t matter where you sit, doesn’t matter if you are there all day or only 2 minutes. You get the same candy bounced off your face.

[evogsr]

(a) Blizzard fundamentally changed something that encouraged such "anti-social" behavior

Let's address (a). If your natural inclination/tendency is to be "less social" if given the opportunity, then the social aspect of the game you refer to is a facade. People who wish to remain social will do so, which is why guilds, and endgame still exists. The fact that the majority of the community flocked to something that required less social interaction speaks volumes of the types of personalities that an mmo resonates with.

Your thesis of A is incorrect. The expansion of it only has loose correlation in the way you explained it, IE. not well.

Blizzard did indeed fundamentally change aspects of the game which took away and chipped at the need to communicate or be social all together. It doesn't matter if players naturally are or want to be social.

From 1.12 and onward, servers and communities completely faded from what they had been previous to 1.12 which was the first nail. This systematic dismantling continued all the way up to what we have now with the culmination of CRZ/sharding technologies. Various aspects of the game, in lobby style format, that require absolutely no interaction from player to player to 1) meet up and 2) do the thing that they joined the lobby to do. This has been painted on-top of every single system apart from only the most competitive aspects of the game, IE. mythic groups, heroic+ raiding, rbgs/arenas.

Speaking about myself. I'm extremely social, both in real life and in multiplayer games I play. In present day, I not only don't have to communicate to accomplish anything casual (anything below mythics/rbg) that I might seek to do - across the board no exceptions, but there is no incentive from purely a social aspect to do so. I'm not some one off. This is the general experience for every player now. Unless I particularly and oddly really enjoy the XYZ of whatever it is that I'm doing with another player who randomly joined into my group from a menu, high odds that I'm never going to see or play with that person again. Why bother? For the sake of being social to prove your ideas on social interaction correct? Spare me.

It's no cohencidence that one can go play on a Vanilla private server (for example) and quickly realize that the game systems did facilitate and encourage social behavior - at the very least for the purpose of getting anything worthwhile done. Fast forward today, completely different systems, completely different player interaction (largely faceless and non-existent).