New Interview: Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate?

[The7]

Problem is, she is still better than the alternative.

There isn't many people that Sylvanas is better than. But who are you referencing?

[Verdugo]

There isn't many people that Sylvanas is better than. But who are you referencing?

Most of the current Horde leadership, Saurfang, and especialy Anduin.

[Zulkhan]

An interview is canon by default

Not really. It can't be considered a canon source without proper context and explanation, since everything's way too up to personal interpretation whether canon material needs to be objectively canon.

[Deleted]

Most of the current Horde leadership, Saurfang, and especialy Anduin.

Personally I think Anduin is in all ways better than Sylvanas lol

[Verdugo]

Personally I think Anduin is in all ways better than Sylvanas lol

And thats fine, you shouldnt be ashamed of playing Alliance.

[Stormdash]

"The canon" of a body of fictional work is the produced work itself. For WoW, that means what happens in the game, and in licensed novels/short stories/comics that are written as game tie-ins.

Insights like from an input only have any value of informing canon if they are clearing up an ambiguity, but they are not in and of themselves sources of canonical authority. For now, this interview isn't worth anything more than, say, the mistake about Falstad Wildhammer. To paraphrase EA, if it's in the game, it's in the canon. If it's not, it's not.

[Qualia]

Not really. It can't be considered a canon source without proper context and explanation, since everything's way too up to personal interpretation whether canon material needs to be objectively canon.

That has generally never been the case to any other interview - and I'm not talking to just Blizzard-related interview - unless specifically stated or implied so by the authors, though. Why would (or should) it apply here when Blizzard / Afrasiabi was being serious? I mean, it's not like he dropped an one liner like "Maybe Sylvanas was behind it? LOL", he specifically said that he has been working on her story since 2006 (that is 2 years before WoTLK release), and the Wrathgate and the Blight were under her orders (noted that he didn't mention anything about the betrayals of Putress / Varimathras), thus the current depictions of Sylvanas in story is in character.

Personal interpretation doesn't matter, anyway. What was answered are considered canon, our personal interpretations of it aren't. So for example, in this case, the only thing that is canon was "the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken <...> were all under Sylvanas' orders"; Any other stuffs - like speculations of the extent she was involved in that incident, or what those orders were, are just our speculations and not canon by any means unless we get a confirmation from Blizzard.

[Zulkhan]

That has generally never been the case to any other interview - and I'm not talking to just Blizzard-related interview - unless specifically stated or implied so by the authors, though. Why would (or should) it apply here when Blizzard / Afrasiabi was being serious? I mean, it's not like he dropped an one liner like "Maybe Sylvanas was behind it? LOL", he specifically said that he has been working on her story since 2006 (that is 2 years before WoTLK release), and the Wrathgate and the Blight were under her orders (noted that he didn't mention anything about the betrayals of Putress / Varimathras), thus the current depictions of Sylvanas in story is in character.

Personal interpretation doesn't matter, anyway. What was answered are considered canon, our personal interpretations of it aren't. So for example, in this case, the only thing that is canon was "the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken <...> were all under Sylvanas' orders"; Any other stuffs - like speculations of the extent she was involved in that incident, or what those orders were, are just our speculations and not canon by any means unless we get a confirmation from Blizzard.

Your reasoning is incredibly pretentious. The Wrath Gate incident was not a straightfoward event, it had many people involved, included a demon who specifically answered to Sargeras. We can't take a statement like that as "canon" with no context whatsoever. Our interpretations aren't canon? Indeed, but that's literally all we have, because the utterly vague nature of Afrasiabi's statement (he didn't mention the betrayals of Putress and Varimathras but it's Putress who executed the Wrath Gate Sylvanas supposedly "ordered", even though he was indeed a betrayer) lacks context and proper explanation. I'll consider "Sylvanas ordered the Wrath Gate" canon when either the game or official material will deliver a proper explanation in its proper contenxt. Until then, Afrasiabi's statement is absolutely and effectively worthless.

[The7]

Personally I think Anduin is in all ways better than Sylvanas lol

Since he doesn't have a vagina, some people may disagree with your sentiment...

[Deleted]

Your reasoning is incredibly pretentious. The Wrath Gate incident was not a straightfoward event, it had many people involved, included a demon who specifically answered to Sargeras. We can't take a statement like that as "canon" with no context whatsoever. Our interpretations aren't canon? Indeed, but that's literally all we have, because the utterly vague nature of Afrasiabi's statement (he didn't mention the betrayals of Putress and Varimathras but it's Putress who executed the Wrath Gate Sylvanas supposedly "ordered", even though he was indeed a betrayer) lacks context and proper explanation. I'll consider "Sylvanas ordered the Wrath Gate" canon when either the game or official material will deliver a proper explanation in its proper contenxt. Until then, Afrasiabi's statement is absolutely and effectively worthless.

This x100

/10char

[Magnagarde]

Afrasiabi basically retconned it and/or gave additional information previously unknown. Gave it a new dimension. If we take his latest statement into account, it basically means that she did order Wrathgate to happen, but she didn't count on getting betrayed and Undercity getting taken over.

If he ever clarifies that he didn't retcon it with that statement, then I assume he'll say that he meant that she was the one who made the Forsaken produce the blight in the first place.

[Deleted]

Wrathgate wasn't just an incidental attack on the Lich King. Both factions built forts there, they were planning to make their move against the Lich King there. The move against the Lich King. I'm not buying for one moment that Sylvanas wasn't informed about that, when her own Forsaken were the driving force in the Horde army from Howling Fjord into the Dragonblight (the orcs leading the charge from the other side, Borean Tundra). Both of those armies converged there. The Forsaken made clear that their Blight had to be ready for this attack.
I personally think that Sylvanas was in on it all and simply didn't care if it would kill everyone, because.. well, what I already said in this thread.
But what could also have happened was that while the Blight was supposed to be the Forsaken superweapon to be used in this attack, Sylvanas did not order the exact moment it was supposed to be used, simply because noone knew how exactly the fight would play out and at what point the Lich King would show up, if at all. So... my guess would be Sylvanas's orders were more: Kill the Lich King at any cost. Make him taste defeat at the hands of the Forsaken. ... and Putress chose the exact moment and made sure to additionally cause as much havoc as he could among both armies, Alliance and Horde alike (because that would benefit the Legion and he was allied with Varimathras).
This would still mean Sylvanas was partially at fault, but she didn't expressly order it deployed upon Horde and Alliance. She didn't really order the Blight be deployed into her own troops at Lordaeron either. It just... happened. Why, if now she is a lot worse than in WotLK times, should she have given an order that is worse back then?

[Bigby]

How does this change much? Sylvanas had been developing the Blight for this explicit purpose most of all - to take out Arthas. It would absolutely be in-character of her to order it's deployment in the first pitched battle that Arthas is out in the open, even if there was a good chance of friendly fire. Why else would she send them to Northrend?

It was Putress overtly/actively trying to kill everybody and staging a rebellion she, obviously, didn't order.

Fucking LOL at all the Sylvanas fanboys losing their minds in this thread.

Yeah, but don't forget it's only silly, immature Alliance players who 'whine'.

[Qualia]

Your reasoning is incredibly pretentious. The Wrath Gate incident was not a straightfoward event, it had many people involved, included a demon who specifically answered to Sargeras. We can't take a statement like that as "canon" with no context whatsoever. Our interpretations aren't canon? Indeed, but that's literally all we have, because the utterly vague nature of Afrasiabi's statement (he didn't mention the betrayals of Putress and Varimathras but it's Putress who executed the Wrath Gate Sylvanas supposedly "ordered", even though he was indeed a betrayer) lacks context and proper explanation. I'll consider "Sylvanas ordered the Wrath Gate" canon when either the game or official material will deliver a proper explanation in its proper contenxt. Until then, Afrasiabi's statement is absolutely and effectively worthless.

That's not how it works. You, or I for that matter, don't get to decide what is and what isn't canon. It doesn't matter if something is stated without any explanation, be it in-game or somewhere else - otherwise, what else are you going to refute next? We have a lot of canonical statements without any explanation. How about Kosak's statement that a lot of the Old Gods are dead, and the Titans killed a lot of them? Or the bit about Lei Shen at his peak would destroy Arthas in a 1v1 fight? Or that demons are singular beings? There weren't any further explanation for those, and all of them - together with many others - are still treated as canon. Being clearly and thoroughly explained has never ever been a requirement for something to be canon.

I wouldn't argue against your opinion that "Afrasiabi's statement is absolutely and effectively worthless" since it's just your opinion, and isn't without any basis (although I'm not completely agree with that). However, let me quote the Word of God article as they can articulate it much better than I can:
"A number of people reject the notion of Word of God being equal to canon, considering something to be canon only if it appeared in the original source material. If the creator had wanted a certain fact to be canon, the thinking goes, they should have included it in the work to begin with. <...> It's important to remember that if you disagree with the Word of God, there's nothing wrong with writing fan fiction that contradicts it, just don't try to foist your preferred Fanon on fans who acknowledge the official canon or on the actual creator of the work."
Regardless how you, I, or anyone else feel about Afrasiabi's answer, it's canon by definition. You can hate it, but I'm sorry to say that you don't get to decide which is canon and which isn't. If you have any issue and want it to be non-canon, you are free to bring it up to Blizzard - people had done so in the past, and Blizzard had accepted and / or rectified their mistakes (if there was indeed any mistake). Until then, let's not spread misinformation that an official statement from Blizzard, released in something meant to give fans more insight and information about the story, is non-canon.

[Tripzzz]

This was done specifically so Saurfang is more justified when he chops off her head with a saronite axe.

[Verdugo]

This was done specifically so Saurfang is more justified when he chops off her head with a saronite axe.

Would perfectly fit his hypocritical character.

[Coconut]

Wrathgate wasn't just an incidental attack on the Lich King. Both factions built forts there, they were planning to make their move against the Lich King there. The move against the Lich King. I'm not buying for one moment that Sylvanas wasn't informed about that, when her own Forsaken were the driving force in the Horde army from Howling Fjord into the Dragonblight (the orcs leading the charge from the other side, Borean Tundra). Both of those armies converged there. The Forsaken made clear that their Blight had to be ready for this attack.

I personally think that Sylvanas was in on it all and simply didn't care if it would kill everyone, because.. well, what I already said in this thread.
But what could also have happened was that while the Blight was supposed to be the Forsaken superweapon to be used in this attack, Sylvanas did not order the exact moment it was supposed to be used, simply because noone knew how exactly the fight would play out and at what point the Lich King would show up, if at all. So... my guess would be Sylvanas's orders were more: Kill the Lich King at any cost. Make him taste defeat at the hands of the Forsaken. ... and Putress chose the exact moment and made sure to additionally cause as much havoc as he could among both armies, Alliance and Horde alike (because that would benefit the Legion and he was allied with Varimathras).

This would still mean Sylvanas was partially at fault, but she didn't expressly order it deployed upon Horde and Alliance. She didn't really order the Blight be deployed into her own troops at Lordaeron either. It just... happened. Why, if now she is a lot worse than in WotLK times, should she have given an order that is worse back then?

We know that Sylvanas was in on developing the blight, and it makes sense character-wise that she would have been fine with sacrificing the Horde and Alliance armies in order to kill him. It also makes sense that she would keep it as secret as possible in order to prevent someone stopping her from using it or losing the surprise element.

However, the way the Wrathgate played out doesn't make sense if the main goal truly was killing Arthas (and it would have been for Sylvanas, since she was going to kill herself afterwards anyway - unless all of this is retconned too). We saw that a single barrel of blight severely weakened Arthas, the only reason he survived was because he managed to retreat to the citadel and the corridor was free of blight when the gates closed behind him. If they had focused their fire on Arthas and on the Wrathgate itself (to make sure the blight would have spread inside the corridor by the time he retreated), they might well have killed him right there.

Instead, the first shot went somewhere towards the bottom of the stairs, well away from Arthas, and meant no doubt to cut off the Alliance and Horde soldiers from retreating. Several other barrels were then wasted on the living instead of raining down on the Lich King. You can see clearly at this point in the video that the one barrel aimed at Arthas didn't even touch him, it merely fell somewhere in the vicinity. Would he have been able to get up if a barrel had actually struck him? And, again, if Putress was going to cut anyone off, why not cut off Arthas? That he bothered to fire at the living at all clearly shows that he wasn't following Sylvanas's orders.

The only scenario that can somewhat work is that she knew Putress and Varimathras were going to betray the living after killing the Lich King, and simply didn't care because she didn't plan to stick around. But she didn't know exactly how this betrayal would play out, and certainly didn't anticipate that Putress would jeopardize the Lich King kill by firing at humans and orcs at the same time.

[Deleted]

We know that Sylvanas was in on developing the blight, and it makes sense character-wise that she would have been fine with sacrificing the Horde and Alliance armies in order to kill him. It also makes sense that she would keep it as secret as possible in order to prevent someone stopping her from using it or losing the surprise element.

However, the way the Wrathgate played out doesn't make sense if the main goal truly was killing Arthas (and it would have been for Sylvanas, since she was going to kill herself afterwards anyway - unless all of this is retconned too). We saw that a single barrel of blight severely weakened Arthas, the only reason he survived was because he managed to retreat to the citadel and the corridor was free of blight when the gates closed behind him. If they had focused their fire on Arthas and on the Wrathgate itself (to make sure the blight would have spread inside the corridor by the time he retreated), they might well have killed him right there.

Instead, the first shot went somewhere towards the bottom of the stairs, well away from Arthas, and meant no doubt to cut off the Alliance and Horde soldiers from retreating. Several other barrels were then wasted on the living instead of raining down on the Lich King. You can see clearly at this point in the video that the one barrel aimed at Arthas didn't even touch him, it merely fell somewhere in the vicinity. Would he have been able to get up if a barrel had actually struck him? And, again, if Putress was going to cut anyone off, why not cut off Arthas? That he bothered to fire at the living at all clearly shows that he wasn't following Sylvanas's orders.

The only scenario that can somewhat work is that she knew Putress and Varimathras were going to betray the living after killing the Lich King, and simply didn't care because she didn't plan to stick around. But she didn't know exactly how this betrayal would play out, and certainly didn't anticipate that Putress would jeopardize the Lich King kill by firing at humans and orcs at the same time.

I think what we need to look at is that Putress (under Sylvanas's order) even in the cinematic waited until the Alliance and Horde had made their move and failed miserably. They held against the troops but the moment Arthas actually appeared Dranosh got killed at once and neither Putress nor Sylvanas would have cared if Bolvar still stood probably. So after Dranosh's death Putress sprang into action, as planned, and then deviated from the plan juuust a little. Had Sylvanas been there herself, most of the Blight would have landed on Arthas, of that I'm sure. But Putress simply covered all of the ground in Blight, to kill everyone there, Scourge and Living alike, as he says.
I think this is where we can say that while Sylvanas ordered the Plague and also its use at the Wrathgate (which was supposed to be the deciding battle of Horde and Alliance against the Scourge from the beginning of the campaign on, Forsaken coming from the Howling Fjord and finishing their super-weapon on the way, Alliance and the other Horde forces coming from the Borean Tundra), Putress took the chance to also set in motion his and Varimathras's plans. And I don't think this is a retcon and none of Afrasiabi's words said anything more than that. Wrathgate was carried out under Sylvanas' order and mostly according to her plan, which had been clear (had anyone cared to look) from the beginning of Vanilla onwards.

Now the next thing is, how aware was Sylvanas of the plans Varimathras and Putress had. Not even Alex Afrasiabi's words in the latest interview give any hint to that, that is still only speculation. My speculation here is that Sylvanas was quite aware of their plans and used them. Had Arthas died at the Wrathgate like she wanted, she wouldn't have had to care about Putress and Varimathras, because she never wanted to outlive Arthas by much anyway. But she must have had a backup plan, at least that's what I'd like to think, in case Arthas got away. And in my opinion that backup plan included framing Putress and Varimathras for the Wrathgate and walk away afterwards for another shot at Arthas. So she let them proceed with their plans to have someone to put the blame on if Arthas lived.

Why do I see it that way? Because it makes sense if we think Sylvanas is intelligent and I don't care if an evil character in a game is evil, as long as she/he is intelligent about it, I like it. And really we can't actually say many of the WoW characters are intelligent or at least none of them are insightful and planning anything ahead for more than a few months. And if I have a chance of thinking at least about one character as smart, I'm ok with it. So if I get to choose between thinking about Sylvanas as a poor victim, a little dumb and naive, but not wholly evil, or as an intelligent, ruthless and evil character I'll take the latter any day of the week. In a game, I can cheer for that. For the former not so much.

[Deleted]

Another reason for us to kill that fake warchief.

[Arbs]

Sylvanas is a crazy B and has always been a crazy B. But people have this head canon & so attached to her that people think she has this redeeming value or something & actually cares about nobody other than herself. She will use anyone or anything to get what she wants. She treads the line until she is the one making the calls.

Sadly people want or believe Sylvanas will become the Kerrigan of Warcraft & be the one to save us all from the Void Lords. Now that would be lazy writing if that happens.

I wouldn't consider this a major retcon & really just a minor thing, like were fools to believe Sylvanas wouldn't lie to us or use the opportunity to get back at Arthas & Putress decided let's kick it up a notch & get back at the living aswell or Varimathras could be like this is the perfect time to strike.