Does the mainstream suck?

[NED funded]

You have to be really pretentious to think that mainstream stuff sucks. I kinda of agree tho, a lot of the stuff that I see is popular seems more popular because of a good marketing strategy as opposed to it being actually really THAT good.

while indie and out-of-country ('un-American') stuff is so refined?

This part triggers my nationalism. Foreign stuff is still trashy as hell, you just don't see it because it doesn't get out of its borders unless its really good.

[Ashleyxoxo]

There are plenty of artists that don't care about commercial success and focus more on artistic intergrity, but realistically they have to make money to be able to sustain the equipment needed to maintain the same quality of music

No. Black metal artists, for example, are notorious for working with what they have. It creates a more natural and authentic sound, anyway.

Foreign stuff is still trashy as hell, you just don't see it because it doesn't get out of its borders unless its really good.

Have you seen foreign arthouse films? Or even just French ones? American cinema sucks.

[jackofwind]

You're pretending to be the be-all and end-all on terminology. Metallica's St. Anger sold well but was not "commerically successful" because most people returned it.

St Anger is trash but was absolutely commercially successful. That's part of what made it so heavily detested by so many longtime metal fans along with Load/Reload - it was a complete sellout to the fad-genre of the day.

That didn't stop if form going double-platinum and selling like 5 million copies worldwide.

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Have you seen foreign arthouse films? Or even just French ones? American cinema sucks.

In your opinion.

Also, American cinema isn't all Hollywood. There are plenty of trash-tier arthouse films out there as well.

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No. Black metal artists, for example, are notorious for working with what they have. It creates a more natural and authentic sound, anyway.

Black Metal is also notorious for having absolute shit production levels to the point of hilarity on some releases. It's a meme in the metal community. Yes, its a staple of the genre because it goes right back to the beginning with Venom, but it's not always good for the music or done well.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Black Metal is also notorious for having absolute shit production levels to the point of hilarity on some releases. It's a meme in the metal community.

The rest of the metal community is like you guys: relatively mainstream. They hear authentic sounds and think: "OMG shit production!"

[jackofwind]

The rest of the metal community is like you guys: relatively mainstream. They hear authentic sounds and think: "OMG shit production!"

So you're just an edgelord hipster then?

There is good black metal and there is absolute shit black metal, just like the rest of the subgenres. Poor production values are inherent in the subgenre but that doesn't mean they're always beneficial to the music.

I'd love to know what bands you listen to that make you think you've veered so far off the mainstream.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Poor production values are inherent in the subgenre but that doesn't mean they're always beneficial to the music.

And high production isn't always necessary for the music, which you guys apparently don't seem to get.

[Zoldor]

It is insanely popular because it is safe and appeals to a broad audience. Is it good or bad? Like all things that is an opinion. But it is generally acceptable to a large group and most of it is a mimic of what has worked in the past just with updated exterior.

Some of it is better than other for sure, great pop stuff lasts for a long time and has a lot of replay. As someone mentioned, Harry Potter, is a great example. It will probably be fairly timeless and this is coming from someone who was never into it more than a watch of the movies, but knows a landslide of people that love it. Lord of the Rings is a good example. The Beatles are probably a decent example. General pop music is tough because it gets rebranded for each generation specifically so a lot of it will only be timeless with the demographic. Young kids aren't going to bring NKOTB back, but they'll love some One Direction (thats what the kids were into recently right, I'm a little old on this front). Take Post Malone, I wanted to hate the living shit out of it, but its catchy and not awful and enjoyable. In 20 years is someone going to be like Post Malone is the fucking truth. No. Nirvana would be one, a lot of modern artists are really influenced by them in multiple genres (when I say modern I mean 16 to 23). That will probably be the standout from my generation of Pop Rock that lives for a long time.

Is there trash in there, fuck yeah, if Vanilla Ice didn't jack Under Pressures insanely catchy beat he would be lost to time. No one is busting out MC Hammer if that makes sense. But it was enjoyable by a lot at the time. Don't hate pop just remember there is a ton of it so you aren't going to fall in love with all of it.

[jackofwind]

And high production isn't always beneficial to the music, which you guys apparently don't seem to get.

I never made that argument though, so I don't know who "you guys" are. I don't listen to Top 40 or whatever, and I love plenty of old metal with bad production. Not a single person who knows me would say I'm mainstream.

Shit, I strongly believe that every remastered album is just a shittier version of the original because they always lose the gritty feeling of the old recordings.

[Ashleyxoxo]

I never made that argument though, so I don't know who "you guys" are.

but realistically they have to make money to be able to sustain the equipment needed to maintain the same quality of music

/15characters

[CritFromAfar]

No. Black metal artists, for example, are notorious for working with what they have. It creates a more natural and authentic sound, anyway.



Have you seen foreign arthouse films? Or even just French ones? American cinema sucks.

So, an instrument? If an instrument breaks or needs parts, it generally costs money to replace.
Yeah, raw gritty noises tend to be more immersive for metal music. But that's what you would call subjective.

[Zoldor]

No. Black metal artists, for example, are notorious for working with what they have. It creates a more natural and authentic sound, anyway.

20 years ago I'm buying this line, but with the access of modern recording it is merely an excuse to cover up bad playing a lot of the time. Black Metal is a lot like Punk, it can sound like trash and be played really tight and be great, but there a TON that sound like trash, and play like trash, because they are trash. Similiar to any genre.

Authenticity of playing what you have makes sense, but in this modern world what you have is access cheaply to much better recording so choosing to sound like shit isn't authentic it is ripping off the past in an attempt to be cool. Which is the exact opposite of authentic and usually because those recording don't know shit about what they are doing and selling you the line of this is what it should sound like. There is a good amount of modern well recorded black metal that isn't some single track static noise sound blur.

[Ashleyxoxo]

So, an instrument? If an instrument breaks or needs parts, it generally costs money to replace..

So do water bottles. What is your point? That you need money? How literal are we talking about? Because you don't need what most people claim to need.

[Zoldor]

And high production isn't always necessary for the music, which you guys apparently don't seem to get.

There is a difference between high production and being recorded correctly. In the modern age there isn't much excuse for a piss poor recording. You aren't and shouldn't be recording on a single track tape or a two track tape anymore with degraded quality. There are a ton of programs, videos, and the like that can give you a good recording. I watched the transition in the late 80s and early 90s to the transition in the early 00s. Those who put out poor recordings are doing so from a fake place now. It is probably cheaper to make a quality recording than to put forth the effort to use dated retro tape equipment and put out a shit sound of static to cover up how bad you really are.

[jackofwind]

/15characters

Do you think that those two quotes are both from me? Because that's clearly someone else.

[CritFromAfar]

So do water bottles. What is your point? That you need money? How literal are we talking about? Because you don't need what most people claim to need.

Yes. I'm basically just trying to back up my point that it's unrealistic to see music as just a creative process, and in your OP you asked about success. I'm saying there's a difference between the artistic aspect and success, but that realistically you still need money to be able to sustain even the artistic aspects, even if you're not hitting platinum.

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Do you think that those two quotes are both from me? Because that's clearly someone else.

They're trying to tell you we both made the same argument against what they said.

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And high production isn't always necessary for the music, which you guys apparently don't seem to get.

I would like to point out that you made the thread about pop music, not metal music, and in pop high production quality tends to matter more.

[NED funded]

Have you seen foreign arthouse films? Or even just French ones? American cinema sucks.

Not all foreign movies are arthouse films tho. Try browsing Netflix and watch Indian, Chinese or even Spanish Films and you'll see what I'm talking about. Kinda unfair too, to imply there aren't american arthouse films too.

Also, arthouse can be and are in most cases absolute trash, this featured in Sitges a top film festival in Spain:

[Ashleyxoxo]

realistically you still need money to be able to sustain even the artistic aspects, even if you're not hitting platinum.

No, you don't. An entry guitar is only $100. If you're counting change, then they're making music for water, too. And that would just be an absurd claim.

I would like to point out that you made the thread about pop music, not metal music, and in pop high production quality tends to matter more.

I made the thread about mainstream music, and pop is the most mainstream, it being short for "popular."

[CasualFilth]

I think you are confusing mainstream with commercial.

[Hadriker]

Is insanely popular stuff bad? If so, why is it popular? Are people really stupid? Or is stuff popular for a reason, that reason being that their quality is overall better? Further, why are mainstream hits shoddy in design, while indie and out-of-country ('un-American') stuff is so refined?

Every morning, I tune into hit radio stations to find out. So far, I don't like most pop music. Half the time, I can't see how something has become so hugely popular. Take, for example, Charlie Pluth. He sucks. But then, Ariana Grande sounds pretty, only her songs are shoddy. Is success random luck?

insanely popular stuff is not automatically bad. When you are making something that you want to have large general appeal its going to be "safe". you will hear the same melodies, chord progressions, etc. Its for the casual listener. the person who really only listens to the radio or whatever. its why bands like nickelback do well. The songs aren't bad per se, but they aren't anything new. They play it safe. its the same but new.

doesn't mean you will like it. I hate nickelback, but what they do they do well. They have a formula, and they stick with it.

[CasualFilth]

Let's take one example: the Harry Potter books.

They are insanely popular. I've read the books and they're good. What makes them good is that they combine tropes in a way that had never been done before, the whole "mystery at a magic boarding school" thing. Also she put lot's and lots of imaginative detail in, like magic candy wrappers for example and that's just one detail of hundreds.

Um, nope. Harry Potter isn't more original than say Game of Thrones.

mystery at a magic boarding school - The Worst Witch

magic candy wrappers - Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

So many stuff in HP are found elsewhere. Rowling did not come up with those things first.