Titanforging is here to stay

[arkanon]

What's wrong? Everything I've said is 100% factual. There's no way anyone can prove it's a direct correlation - but all you need to do is ask. I don't know a single person in game who likes titanforging. It's something you feel relieved when it happens and annoyed when it doesn't. It's an objectively shit system. Why the fuck would you want MORE RNG in a game as RNG heavy as WoW?

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Can anyone give me one reason why titanforging actually makes the game better?

I have asked the same question multiple times. They dodge it like the plague. None of them can answer why removing the system would be bad, either. Ill tell you why - They are the LFR players - the warfront afkers - they buy their +10, and sit back and wait. Those are the only people who would defend such a system.

They also ALWAYS back themselves into a corner when trying to nail down the likelihood of getting WF/TF.

Argument - "WF/TF allows players to obtain gear they didnt earn, and gear far beyond the content they are doing, and as such, it is a bad system that devalues content"

Response - "That NEVER happens, ppl would be lucky to get a single high lvl WF let alone any TF over an entire expac, its just a nice little bonus when it happens!"

Ok, so just remove the system, since it has barely any impact at all?

Response - "NONONONO, you cant remove it, it will totally break raid progression! this system allows guilds to clear content they are stuck on!"

Wait, so now its rewarding such massive ilvl increases over ENTIRE GUILDS that they can progress through content? Sounds OP and really should be removed"

Response - "nonono, dont take mah free ilvls"

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If they keep TF the game will never ever be good again. The game will not be good with trash systems in it.

Although i dont think the situation is quite that serious, i do agree the system is trash. There is absolutely no reason NOT to remove the system. They could leave the foundations, but instead have it rewarding Xmog items, pets, and mounts - there is absolutely no objective reason for it to be rewarding ilvl increases on gear.

Its a system built to reward lazy gameplay, and farming of low level content. This increases their MAU, which is how they report. The people who refuse to accept something so obvious are beyond help.

[Has lost its way]

I guess I am alright with it... what got me to quit after ten years was the ever growing amount of time needed to prepare for raids. I don't really know who modern wow is aimed at but it isn't me anymore.

Still with any luck I might get to see the burning crusade again and that would be nice.

[Osmeric]

Lemme guess, millennial?

No, but my daughters are.

When in the utter fuck was there this massive shift in society that everyone deserves everything, without working for it? That thinking is NOT a positive thing.

Where does this idiot idea come from that designing a game to reflect some puritanical moralistic view of the real world is a good idea?

[Onikaroshi]

Where does this idiot idea come from that designing a game to reflect some puritanical moralistic view of the real world is a good idea?

Where does this idiot idea come from that designing a game that gives you shit for free is a good idea?

Wow is shifting more and more towards sandbox, do anything to get a reward, and that's not good.

[rrayy]

RNG is the worse thing ever too, therefore, nothing about it is good. Stay with your random luck, i prefer deserving something.

Killing a boss is a group effort. Therefore, everyone in your group deserves the loot equally. You are not better than everyone else in your group that downed the boss. You stick with your selfishness and entitlement. I prefer everyone in the group who downed the boss getting equal chances.

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Lemme guess, millennial?

When in the utter fuck was there this massive shift in society that everyone deserves everything, without working for it? That thinking is NOT a positive thing.

Downing a boss is a GROUP effort. Why is it that you are the only one in the group that deserves gear? Your thinking is NOT a positive thing.

[alturic]

Killing a boss is a group effort. Therefore, everyone in your group deserves the loot equally. You are not better than everyone else in your group that downed the boss. You stick with your selfishness and entitlement. I prefer everyone in the group who downed the boss getting equal chances.

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Downing a boss is a GROUP effort. Why is it that you are the only one in the group that deserves gear? Your thinking is NOT a positive thing.

Hmm care to point out where I said someone who puts in effort should not receive loot?

[ChairmanKaga]

Literally NO ONE would be hurt if they scrapped titanforging tomorrow, but so many people - more the higher up in player skill you go - would benefit. Like @Osmeric tells us - it forces you to play for longer before you're 'done' gearing - artificially increasing the grind and raising MAU's - funny that isn't it.

Yes it's funny that bleeding edge folk take it upon themselves to grind the RNG. It's actually hilarious.

[Battlebeard]

I love the feeling to be "done" with something, that gives you something to work for. When are you done with lets say BoD heroic? Well, when you have 400ilvl in all gear slots. There should never be incentive to keep farming something you complete, that is backwards thinking.

Same with stuff like Paragon mounts. Once I reach exalted I am DONE with that faction, or SHOULD at least be. Next project.

But nope, this keeps people playing the game so they make more money, the easiest answer possible. It's harmful to the industry

[Battlebeard]

I never said there shouldn't be a grind for high end players - but titanforge makes that grind almost untenable. A big reason I stopped caring about progression is because there was no longer an 'end' for my characters optimisation. Sure, I can get my BiS pieces but it doesn't feel good because I know I could have potentially better gear. At the very least they could make it so open world item level can never surpass normal raiding gear, normal gear can never surpass heroic, and heroic could never surpass mythic - and mythic could have a fixed item level without titanforge. Best of both worlds then since only shit players like titanforge anyway so they can feel good at the game for getting a sick 425 uber item with a socket from a world boss

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I don't understand why people want to play WoW, on the same character, all of the time. I used to love killing a last boss of a tier and hitting my BiS - so I could either play an alt more or an entirely different game.

And I never understood alts. I always wanted one completely complete character, with all mounts, all pets, all toys, all achievements, all rare vanity items, all transmog, all reputaions maxed, all quests complete, all areas explored and BiS gear etc etc. To have a 100% maxed character has always been a goal. But to do it again, no way, the time and effort required for 1 char is enough.

[psiko74]

They should keep WF/TF and just add a cap. WF = 5 ilvls and TF = 10 ilvls

[RoKPaNda]

Subs have fallen at a faster rate than ever since MoP, MoP introduced WF. Pretty easy really. Give me one good reason to have WF in WoW

And you're attributing any significant amount of that to this specific feature because .... ? Evidence? At all? Any? lol.

"the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game."

Just going to ignore that? you lot are like flat Earthers - absolutely convinced you are right and that no evidence is good enough, while ignoring core components of arguments just to focus on the one bit you feel you can disprove. Even if we talk about the dramatic drop in Blizzards MAU coinciding with the launch of BfA, you still just refuse to accept the evidence. "nope, now you cant PROVE that is because of wow, and you cant PROVE that its because of ABC". The game is in serious decline - even those still enjoying the game are accepting that - i still play the game and i absolutely accept it. Its only the blind followers who think Blizzard can do no wrong that refuse to accept what is obvious to many - Blizzards current class design, and rewards philosophy are driving many people away from the game.

I did have a little cringe chuckle at you awkwardly shoe-horning in that you raid mythic, despite it having absolutely no relevance to the argument, and no one asking you.

Friend I think you've spent too much time on the internet looking for "gotcha" moments in arguments. I mentioned what I do in-game because it was relevant to this tidbit: "the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input" - People that raid heroic and lower which is beneath the content that I do in terms of difficulty and reward are NOT walking around with gear like mine. The only people who come close are people that put as much time into M+ as I do into Mythic raiding and that's intended.

The problem with your flat earther comparison is that it's the Titanforging whiners that have zero evidence of their claims. In the years that theyv'e been whining about it they've never linked an armory that shows anything close to their claims of an LFR hero, normal hero, or heroic hero, with gear from that content, that rivals actual organized raiding (Mythic) rewards. During a Legion Q&A Watcher said that on average you can expect one piece of high level titanforged gear PER TIER from Normal. That is so trivial it's hilarious. The number for Heroic isn't going to be much higher, the number from LFR is going to be even lower, that's just math. There's no magic at play here. Just math, and it's not complicated. At this point I've only even seen a handful of screenshots over the last couple years of low content items hitting cap. It's so extremely unlikely to happen, and it's a singular piece of gear, and it doesn't have any negative impact on anyone. Whining about it is quite frankly hilarious and sad.

It was a bigger issue in Legion and even then it was minor, because casuals already were guaranteed to have 2 slots that were equal to ours through legendaries. Now there are no legendaries and it's even less significant if some casual somewhere gets a max level piece of gear.

Ow. Right in my pride. My effort as a Mythic raider is now completely devalued (lol) because Casual Eddie somewhere got a singular piece of gear that's around the level of literally every single piece of my gear. :'( Big huge sad tears. :'(

If you had any evidence we'd have seen it by now. This community loves data. A lot of the community doesn't understand the data most of the time but the community loves data. It didn't take people long to figure out there was a bug with legendary drops in Legion, it didn't take horribly long for people to figure out that mounts weren't dropping where they were supposed to in MoP I believe it was, shit even in Vanilla where the game gave us no useful data people came up with SEP/AEP for figuring out ideal gear. If the amount of TFed gear from low content was in any way significant we'd have seen evidence of it, but we haven't, because it doesn't exist.

They should keep WF/TF and just add a cap. WF = 5 ilvls and TF = 10 ilvls

That's just punishing casuals. If they really wanted to change anything to appeal to the portion of the top 5% that gets their feelers hurt when Casual Stan gets a singular decent item they could cap everything outside of Mythic raiding to 5 ilevels under Mythic base and then either don't allow Mythic gear to forge or just allow Mythic gear to WF. That solves the hurt feelings problem and it solves the "OMG MY MYTHIC GEAR DIDN'T TF AND I NEED IT TO BECAUSE OBSESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!" problem - Which really Blizzard shouldn't have to solve either because they're personal problems, not game problems, and quite frankly we're such an insignificant portion of the playerbase that punishing everyone else to cater to us is a shit business decision.

[Lurker1]

Lemme guess, millennial?

When in the utter fuck was there this massive shift in society that everyone deserves everything, without working for it? That thinking is NOT a positive thing.

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Haven’t kept up on the PTR notes, could you give some idea of these terrible systems?

Just by doing world quests nonstop we can get ilvl gear from 385 up to 430 max soon!No forgeing needed ftw!

[justandulas]

I dislike it because it disrupts the flow of progression and allows lesser content to achieve higher lvl gear than harder content. It creates a loot system that’s more akin to diablo 3 than Everquest.

I’ll wait for classic as I prefer a more linear Everquest like progression system over the diablo 3 rng system of today

Gear meant more to the player when it was scarce

[arkanon]

And you're attributing any significant amount of that to this specific feature because .... ? Evidence? At all? Any? lol.



Friend I think you've spent too much time on the internet looking for "gotcha" moments in arguments. I mentioned what I do in-game because it was relevant to this tidbit: "the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input" - People that raid heroic and lower which is beneath the content that I do in terms of difficulty and reward are NOT walking around with gear like mine. The only people who come close are people that put as much time into M+ as I do into Mythic raiding and that's intended.

The problem with your flat earther comparison is that it's the Titanforging whiners that have zero evidence of their claims.

.

Not once have i said that an lfr player has the same ilvl as a mythic raider. Again, stop with the strawman. I didnt say that. I did say they shouldn't have ANY mythic quality items, and most of them would do if they played even a small amount per week. But the second part is where i literally stopped reading your wall of garbage. My "claim" is that i dont enjoy Titanforging. I think its a shit system that devalues all loot i receive, and takes away the incentive to progress through difficulties. Who the hell are you to say that my personal opinion and experience in game is "wrong" and has no evidence?

Provide me ONE piece of evidence that titanforging does anything positive for the game at all. I will wait for you (remember, no opinions, no feelings, just hard evidence).

Very poor reply.

[Watchers]

And thank god, we would have useless content x4 faster

[Eurhetemec]

The definitions are for different contexts. The one HuxNeva uses is for people interacting with each other, mine is for people interacting with video games.

The RPG in MMORPG refers to the latter, since it is a video game.
The RP in RP-Server refers to the former.

That's pretty revisionist and backronym-like, though, in the context of MMORPGs. In MMORPGs, you are interacting with other players. Further, you're wrong, from a historical perspective. MMORPGs expected players to RP and interact with other players, in character at least some of the time. That's why MMORPGs are designed the way they are - and they had a profound influence on other games, to the point where most online games picked up some of the more social elements, even if they'd initially been designed without it (emotes are an obvious example).

So no, the RP in MMORPGs refers to both, not one or the other.

People need to stop trying to rewrite gaming history, honestly. I had some idiot try and tell me "CRPG" stood for "Classic RPG" recently, and always had. Jesus wept. What you're saying is nowhere near as bad as that, but if you played MMORPGs since EQ days, you would never be making a revisionist claim like that.

[Eleccybubb]

I dislike it because it disrupts the flow of progression and allows lesser content to achieve higher lvl gear than harder content. It creates a loot system that’s more akin to diablo 3 than Everquest.

I’ll wait for classic as I prefer a more linear Everquest like progression system over the diablo 3 rng system of today

Gear meant more to the player when it was scarce

Exactly.

If I wanted to play a game with ARPG style loot like Diablo or Path of Exile then I'd play those games.

I want to loot a boss on WoW and that's it. Maybe a small 6 item level bonus. I want my gear to have sockets, I want it to be able to be enchanted and so on.

I don't want to rely on RNG in a game like WoW other than boss drops.

[RoKPaNda]

Not once have i said that an lfr player has the same ilvl as a mythic raider. Again, stop with the strawman. I didnt say that. I did say they shouldn't have ANY mythic quality items, and most of them would do if they played even a small amount per week. But the second part is where i literally stopped reading your wall of garbage. My "claim" is that i dont enjoy Titanforging. I think its a shit system that devalues all loot i receive, and takes away the incentive to progress through difficulties. Who the hell are you to say that my personal opinion and experience in game is "wrong" and has no evidence?

Provide me ONE piece of evidence that titanforging does anything positive for the game at all. I will wait for you (remember, no opinions, no feelings, just hard evidence).

Very poor reply.

lol moving the goal posts. You're the one making the claim that it's detrimental, you're the one that should be offering evidence. You're the one that posted this nonsense: "the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input", "I did say they shouldn't have ANY mythic quality items, and most of them would do if they played even a small amount per week." - That's based on your feelings. Not data. You have no evidence of that. And MY post was garbage? lol.

If we know that LFR heroes aren't going around with more than a singular piece of Mythic level gear in the best of circumstances, how is my loot or your loot devalued in any way? You get the gear for the content you do and if you do harder content you get much better gear overall. Period. Look at the players with the top ilevels, what do they all have in common? They do the hardest content. Nobody's effort is being devalued. If all you're going to do is fling around insults and move the goalposts when you get proven wrong because you're being emotional about the subject don't even bother replying.

[sunxsera]

Did 100+ timed 10+ Keys on my DH - didnt get a single 425 item.
Did a honorbound emissary with my 2 weeks old druid - got 425tf boots. Felt so shitty. That´s just wrong.

[PollyO]

Did 100+ timed 10+ Keys on my DH - didnt get a single 425 item.
Did a honorbound emissary with my 2 weeks old druid - got 425tf boots. Felt so shitty. That´s just wrong.

Yeah Blizz knows it's an alt and rewards that toon, rip