(Loot Box's) Number of child gamblers quadruples in just two years....

[Lochton]

You are trying to use EA logic with the kinder egg, its not the same at all. The kinder EGG is a candy every single time. There is no collection to be had. There is no ongoing system that require you to loot kinder eggs. Stuff like fifa on mobile is to the point where you cant actually play the game without rolling slots to buy players. You would have a point if you had to buy a game or have a system where you need your kinder eggs toy to actually do something.

Pokemon card, MTG, are closer to gambling yes, should also be regulated as such 18+. Lets face the fact tho, its gona be rare you run into a 6 years old buying a MTG pack. They do have one thing over the Video game slot machines and slot machines in general. You always get cards that can be sold or used. In regular slot machine or video game lootboxes, the value of what you gain if you dont get what you want, is always 0, forcing you to buy more of them. If you really want x card in magic or pokemon. You can just straight up buy that card for a sum of money at collectible stores or online. While most loot box game its just comes down to, well keep rolling.

This goes beyond loot boxes tho, some of those game monetization problem arent just loot boxes. You had game, like the one with the Authist kids, where the game literally force you to buy energy to even play. They make the game a grind that is impossible to play at a confortable amount unless you pay. For someone normal youd just throw the game away and say fuck it. But younger kids and some people are more vulnerable to lose control and just compulsive behavior. Which the industry knows all about and is the whole basis for making such a mechanic in the first place. You are paying for the ability to make the game simply function as an actual game.

Personally im not against gacha game or loot boxes, some of them are fine. However they should always be advertised as +18, this game contains gambling. I mean the depiction of (casinos) increase rating of movies and video games, why not actual fucking gambling mechanics?

I play a mobile game named Azur Lane, about collection shipgirls lol. I think that model is fair as long as its marketed 18+. There is gambling for your shipgirls, but at the same time the game doesent stop you from playing and realistically you can get fleet and stuff relativelly quickly just playing normally and not spend any money. Hell spending money doesent really help you that much. You still need to level the ships playing with them and a super rare unleveled ship will get destroyed by a non super rare maxed. Plus youll be swiming in super rare in a matter of days if you play on the shitter every once in a while. But its still gambling. 18+

I used kinder egg as an example for there IS a collection to be had. The toy inside sometimes comes in seasons or limited production. Trust me. As a father, I have experienced the wrath when it wasn't the 'right' toy..

[Queen of Hamsters]

Predatory systems put in place by game developers are what they are and should 100% be outlawed, but... How the actual fuck are kids able to access the funds of their parents...?
My sister is 24 and when she tried to access my mom's debit card to buy a treatment at a salon, she couldn't... because mom wouldn't share her security code (the card was taken without her knowledge)...

And yet here we have kids spending thousands of parent cash on "surprise mechanics"...? One guy was 9 and had spent 2000 euro in one swoop in Fortnite using his parents card...

[szechuan]

Predatory systems put in place by game developers are what they are and should 100% be outlawed, but... How the actual fuck are kids able to access the funds of their parents...?

Plenty of CC's don't require a security code.

[Onikaroshi]

I disagree most older games (NES, Genesis era) were platformers or Platformer/Space Shooters which were easier and faster to 100% especially if you knew what you were doing.

These days some of the most popular Triple A titles have vast Open Worlds with plenty of Side Quests,Collectibles, and sometimes Mini Games which are a much bigger Time Sink then plenty of older games.

There's platformers today just like there was in yesteryear, but I was speaking mostly from a long game RPG perspective honestly because he mentioned "Japanese AA". Japanese AA games were longer back in the day (though there's still quite a few long ones out there), and harder honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

Predatory systems put in place by game developers are what they are and should 100% be outlawed, but... How the actual fuck are kids able to access the funds of their parents...?
My sister is 24 and when she tried to access my mom's debit card to buy a treatment at a salon, she couldn't... because mom wouldn't share her security code (the card was taken without her knowledge)...

And yet here we have kids spending thousands of parent cash on "surprise mechanics"...? One guy was 9 and had spent 2000 euro in one swoop in Fortnite using his parents card...

Outlawed is harsh, seeing as getting the gov't in on this would be an extremely bad idea, the industry needs to self regulate.

[Vash The Stampede]

The industry isn't going to crash, it's much larger and more established than it was back then.

That's true but the current trend is that the industry is heading downwards. For example, there's a 48% decline in Xbox revenue and PC passes PS4 to become Ubisoft's top revenue generator. Clearly there's fatigue in the industry, and shows that gamers are getting tired of something. The Rast of Us 2 won't Rast forever.

Micro-transactions and loot boxes are killing the AAA game industry, you just don't notice it because it's a slow boil. We all agree these are terrible practices and hate them, so eventually this will have an effect on game sales. One day there will be a game like ET that has an offensive amount of micro-transactions that could take away consumer trust in buying games and bring the industry into a recession.

The idea that we had "older, good games" back then is silly, we had just as much - or more - shovelware, buggy games, games that were utter shit, and so on. And you paid top dollar for it.

Each console generation has it's share of crap, but there's been enough console generations that there's timeless classics that players could be playing and not whatever is new. Timeless classics are timeless for a reason.

The whole, "Can't finish first level in Mario" is a stupid meme and I don't know why you'd think anyone would believe that it's actually a thing.

Honestly I didn't even know that was a meme. Just something I noticed with this generation. They play video games but they can't play video games.

[Jtbrig7390]

PC passes PS4 to become Ubisoft's top revenue generator.

Now actually look into why that is.

Ill give you a hint its because of MTX's in a game that is exclusively on PC.

Micro-transactions and loot boxes are killing the AAA game industry,

Tell that to God of War, Spiderman,Red Dead, Anything Nintendo and each Call of Duty that releases each year.

[Vash The Stampede]

You sound like those people who say "playing violent games makes people violent!". No, as long as the kid can understand the concept there's nothing wrong with letting them play those "mtx filled games", you don't even know WHAT they're letting them play and are making that assumption.

Violet games don't make people violet, but violent people will gravitate towards violent games. If you have a gambling tendency then games with gambling mechanics will attract you. It doesn't make you a gambler but it does encourage you to use real money to waste it like a gambler. When you kill someone in a game it's just pixels, but when you spend money in a game then it's real money. Because money today is digital 1's and 0's, that makes it easy to transfer funds, including something that can be done in a video game. Digital killing hasn't caught up.

- - - Updated - - -

Now actually look into why that is.

Ill give you a hint its because of MTX's in a game that is exclusively on PC.

Yes yes, because of Anno 1800 exclusive to PC and "Player Recurring Investment". But is it because micro-transactions are doing well in games that are doing well, or the sale of games are so unimpressive that the whales make up substantial revenue? According to Steam charts there's an active 390 players in Anno 1800, and the rate they're bleeding players is very high, especially after April. Despite being exclusive to Epic now, there's more players on Steam than Epic.Assassin's Creed Odyssey did no better in sales compared to previous titles.

If micro-transactions make up a substantial amount of profits for Ubisoft, you can bet that won't last without sales of games. Unless their games go free2play of course.

Tell that to God of War, Spiderman,Red Dead, Anything Nintendo and each Call of Duty that releases each year.

Anyone of those games probably made more money than any of Ubisofts micro-transactions. God of War has 10 million sales on just the PS4. Red Dead Redemption 2 has 24 million sales. The Last of Us has like 17 million. Ubisoft seems reluctant to share sales numbers for Odyssey lately.

[szechuan]

There's platformers today just like there was in yesteryear, but I was speaking mostly from a long game RPG perspective honestly because he mentioned "Japanese AA". Japanese AA games were longer back in the day (though there's still quite a few long ones out there), and harder honestly.

Dragon Quest XI and VIII are much longer then any of the original NES DQ games.

A lot of people have also been reporting that DQXI takes about 80+ hours to complete none of the NES DQ games even comes close.

Letalone PS era FF games have gotten much bigger compared to the NES ones too, with more to do sometimes as some of them have MiniGames that can be a time sink if you truly want to to 100% everything in the game.

[stellvia]

Games back in the day used to take MUCH longer to complete 100% and most games nowadays that aren't online MMO's or multiplayer only, like Div 2 an the like, aren't filled with anything of the sort you mention.

Final Fantasy 4 took about 15 hours. Most platformers if you cut out the learning curve, were only a couple hours long. That said, a lot of what encompasses a "100% complete" these days is bullshit busywork.

[Krastyn]

I'll just say that because something exists in a way, doesn't mean it cannot be changed/regulated and we should just deal with it. Alcohol has been banned in the past with bad results and now it's heavily regulated (again, results may vary).

And based on the results of alcohol, I don't see an 18+ doing anything. It's 18 to drink where I am, and regular drinking usually starts around 15 or younger.

From your post i get you are a fan of microtx and invest on them so you don't see anything wrong in them. For me it's the exact opposite and i don't think we'll ever agree but it's still been a talk worth doing.

I'm a fan of MTX in the sense that I rarely pay for them, but realize the fact that they are one of the main drivers as to why many AAA games are still only $60 USD to buy.

I don't have the competence to get into legal talk, but things can and will change for sure. May take quite a lot of time though and likely not in a way i hope/like. I will deal with it.

It's extremely hard to change something that already has an existing legal precedence, as well as a knock on effect to multiple industries. You may be able to try to argue lootboxes are gambling, like Belgium did, but I don't see any country ever banning MTX. "Upselling", "add-ons" and other bundling is rampant in the physical business world. So for you ban cosmetic MTX, you would then also have to ban a car dealership for charging extra for special colors. There are no grounds for an outright ban on MTX other than "I don't like them".

EDIT: i fully agree on the part that ESRB should be doing its job, but given how they're in the hands of game companies, i don't see it doing any better in the future until government is involved.

I think it has less to do with being in the hands of the game companies, and more to do with the fact there isn't a consensus as to what should be done. There are no solid numbers to back up a position.

I would go into the broader "MTX are making so much revenue that publishers have no reasons to make quality games anymore" argument, but this is not what we're discussing here.

Quality is entirely subjective. There have been some amazing games this year. There have been some shit games this year. There were some amazing games 10 years ago. There were some shit games 10 years ago. People keep expecting more and more from video games, yet have been paying less and less for them every year. Is it really a surprise that companies are trying to leverage MTX?

- - - Updated - - -

That's true but the current trend is that the industry is heading downwards.

Man is it really easy to manipulate headlines to fool people into thinking they know what they are talking about. Let's break it down.

For example, there's a 48% decline in Xbox revenue

Xbox had a 48% decline in hardware revenue. You mean they sold less consoles this year than last year when they have already announced that they are working on a new console to be release in a year? Color me shocked. Why would you buy a new Xbox now when you can wait a year for the new model?

What you should have linked, was " Gaming revenue declined 10% (down 8% in constant currency) with Xbox software and services revenue down 3% (down 1% in constant currency) "

So Microsoft as an entire company (not just Xbox), dropped 8% revenue yty. Xbox was almost identical to 2018 (1% difference). Dying industry. Totally.

PC passes PS4 to become Ubisoft's top revenue generator.

And they even state that PC growth was driven primarily by Anon, and Uplay. Nothing to do with trending downward.

Micro-transactions and loot boxes are killing the AAA game industry

Competition and the digital age are killing the AAA industry. There are more game developers and publishers now than there were before. It's also way easier now to distribute your games worldwide now than ever before. It's a lot easier for an indie developer to have their game catch fire and spread via social media to get the word out on how good it is. The same is true for how quickly a AAA developer (or indie developer) can get piled on for something bad. It's also the shifting industry trends. The epic 80+ hour games are a nice market.

Companies follow the money. Take Activision for example. From their Q1 report. Their revenue and income is broken down by thier three companies:

Activision - $317 million revenue, $73 million income, 23% margin
Blizzard - $344 million revenue, $55 million income, 16% margin
King - $529 million revenue, $178 million income, 34% margin

Their mobile portion of the company made more profit than their AAA side.

Each console generation has it's share of crap, but there's been enough console generations that there's timeless classics that players could be playing and not whatever is new. Timeless classics are timeless for a reason.

And every year there are new timeless classics. Furthermore, there is no definition of what a "timeless classic" is. What you think might be, others may consider utter shit.

[Armakus]

That't the perfect example of what's happening.

Problem at the root is parents not caring/not informing themselves on how their children spend their time and how the new fancy and shiny technology actually works (hell, no one of them has ever questioned the fact everything is "free"?).

Anyway, the lootbox thing is basically videogame companies knowing well the situation and designing their games as traps for unattended children to blow out as much money as possible without their parents knowing (and i'm pretty sure that a 14yo kid knows well what's happening and why he's doing it in secret - reason why the parents discover it after it's too late).

The facts are pretty simple and clear:
- parents aren't paying enough attention to their kids
- companies are actively working through this to rake as much money as possible

It's obvious that if all parents suddently started being informed and competent and actually watch what their kids do, the issue wouldn't be present. However this is an utopic scenario hence someone has to take measures on the other side of the issue = videogame companies.

They're as guilty as distracted parents. They know what they're doing and they're buying time before the axe falls down - as governments are now mad about all the missed revenue that would have come out of this gold mine if it was regulated beforehand.

Point is, if companies actually kept their greed in touch and implemented "fair" systems, probably this would have passed over and no one would have bat an eye, slowly getting used to a new standard. However (and hilariously) because of EA and their crappy Battlefront 2 everything went out of scale and reached the ears of someone who actually managed to do the 2+2 and realize what was actually happening.

TLR; parents are to blame, but vg companies are guily of exploiting a very dangerous situation, and now need to pay for the damage done to the industry as a whole.

Eh, I think it's more complicated than just saying the parents are to blame. I know for a fact my cousins parents talked to him about corporations and their exploitative nature, and also explicitly discussed microtransactions (the dad's somewhat of a gamer, so he's pretty informed about these things), and their son *still* went through their mom's purse when she put it down and bought $100 in crap in FIFA.

You can be the best parent in the world, but at the end of the day, companies really shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of young minds that are so easily warped.

[Vash The Stampede]

Xbox had a 48% decline in hardware revenue. You mean they sold less consoles this year than last year when they have already announced that they are working on a new console to be release in a year? Color me shocked. Why would you buy a new Xbox now when you can wait a year for the new model?

That's a substantial decline for people to not buy hardware. We're also talking about the same kind of people that pre-order games, so I can't imagine these people are holding out on buying hardware just to get the better upgrade. Especially when the Xbox One is like $250 while the new Xbox Scarlet is probably going to be around $500-$600.

And they even state that PC growth was driven primarily by Anon, and Uplay. Nothing to do with trending downward.

I don't think there's any PC growth, but instead there's a console sales decline with the exception of the Nintendo Switch.

Companies follow the money. Take Activision for example. From their Q1 report. Their revenue and income is broken down by thier three companies:

Activision - $317 million revenue, $73 million income, 23% margin
Blizzard - $344 million revenue, $55 million income, 16% margin
King - $529 million revenue, $178 million income, 34% margin

Their mobile portion of the company made more profit than their AAA side.

Activision and Blizzard are declining in sales due to micro-transaction/loot-box like practices. King, which is known for Candy Crush, have a very different inexperienced market. We know that at one point World of Warcraft was a juggernaut of a game, but today Blizzard is barely holding onto what little customers they have left. Certainly the in game shop hasn't worked out well for them, but there's a lot of other reasons why retail WoW is not doing so well. Activision is another mess of terribleness as that company can't seem to do anything right lately. They can't even give Destiny away for free now.

Micro-transactions and loot boxes may have worked at first for the AAA market, but eventually consumers got wise to these practices and are starting to avoid games with them. The mobile market is new and so are the people, so it'll be a while before those people catch on that this is a bad practice. Again, especially because children are huge on mobile.

And every year there are new timeless classics. Furthermore, there is no definition of what a "timeless classic" is. What you think might be, others may consider utter shit.

Lately I haven't seen any games that could be considered a classic. You'd have to go as far back as 2015 to fine some truly good games. But my point is that you don't have to play what's new and hot to get any enjoyment. Lots of older and probably better games have existed, specifically without micro-transactions and loot boxes.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Blame should really go to more than one party here. Its really douchey that companies re doing some of these things, which is worse when you think about how underpaid their workers probably are; but parents really should be blamed more. Watch what your children are buying and this would solve a large part of the issue. If kids weren't allowed to "gamble" with MTXs, then they would be used much less.

[Elim Garak]

Micro-transactions and loot boxes may have worked at first for the AAA market, but eventually consumers got wise to these practices and are starting to avoid games with them. The mobile market is new and so are the people, so it'll be a while before those people catch on that this is a bad practice. Again, especially because children are huge on mobile.

Er.. the mobile market is not new. It's newer than AAA market but NOT NEW. It makes more money than AAA market (PC and consoles combined).
Not to mention that it was mobile market that took Asian f2p model to heart and made it more profitable than premium model -> hence all the lootboxes and microtransactions in AAA games (something that was exclusive to mmos is now widespread across all genres).

You have no idea what evil monetization schemes are being implemented by mobile industry right now. EA is an angel compared to that.

[Temp name]

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49074003

"The UK gambling watchdog has told MPs that it does not currently oversee the purchase of in-game content like Fifa player packs and video game loot boxes."

"There are other examples of things that look and feel like gambling that legislation tells you are not - [such as] some prize competitions but because they have free play or free entry they are not gambling... but they are a lot like a lottery"

So not gambling, but it's a lottery. Which is gambling.

[Tenjen]

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49074003




So not gambling, but it's a lottery. Which is gambling.

The main issue is one that was already predicted. governing bodies are limited by technical terms they use to define stuff. The current technical definition they use is out of date but they are bound to it. Much like the US Judge who couldnt do anything about the guy taking underskirt photos of preteen girls because the concerned law was out of date.

They still admitted that the entire lootbox system and setups were very concerning.

its basically all the addiction of gambling but you dont get to win money.

[Edge-]

I heard @Edge- loves them or isn't bothered by them.

As long as they can be totally ignored, I don't mind them. But I've never said I love, or even like them. I'm not a fan, but I'm also not going to get my knickers in a twist if a game has them but can still be enjoyed without them.

[Krastyn]

That's a substantial decline for people to not buy hardware. We're also talking about the same kind of people that pre-order games, so I can't imagine these people are holding out on buying hardware just to get the better upgrade. Especially when the Xbox One is like $250 while the new Xbox Scarlet is probably going to be around $500-$600.

It's not a substantial decline for a product entering the end of its life cycle. Look at any product curve nearing the end of its life. The PS4 also took a hit in hardware sales, for the same reason. At this point in time almost everyone who wants a PS or Xbox already has one, or is going to wait for the next gen. If my Xbox died tomorrow, I wouldn't buy a new one. I'd either buy a used one, or wait until next summer for the Scarlet.

I don't think there's any PC growth, but instead there's a console sales decline with the exception of the Nintendo Switch.

So then you didn't actually read the release, which stated "Our first-quarternet bookings came in well above target, thanks to the very robust performance of our games ‒ notably Rainbow Six Siege and Assassin’s Creed Odyssey ‒ and a very strong increase in player recurring investment for PCs and consoles, led by record-high engagement levels per player."

There definitely was a rise in PC revenue.

Activision and Blizzard are declining in sales due to micro-transaction/loot-box like practices.

Citation needed, please.

Again, if you actually look at numbers and try to use actual facts to back up what you're saying, you'll see you are wrong. Activision yty actually increased sales. While Blizzard's sales are down yty from 2018, if you actually read the statements, it's because 2018 was higher due to pre-sales of BFA and revenue from Overwatch League.
They hit the numbers they expected to with no new releases.

King, which is known for Candy Crush, have a very different inexperienced market.

Yeah, they have only been around for 7 years, and mobile gaming is the largest growing market for gaming.

We know that at one point World of Warcraft was a juggernaut of a game, but today Blizzard is barely holding onto what little customers they have left.

You're talking about a game that has had a large subscriber base for over a decade. No game lives forever. Compound this with the fact that MMO's as a genre (especially ones with paid monthy subscriptions) are on the declone, WoW will continue to shrink until it dies for good.

Certainly the in game shop hasn't worked out well for them, but there's a lot of other reasons why retail WoW is not doing so well.

The in game shop actually has worked out quite well for them from a revenue perspective.

Activision is another mess of terribleness as that company can't seem to do anything right lately. They can't even give Destiny away for free now.

So someone makes a Youtube video of their top 10 reasons why company X is bad, and that becomes the absolute truth that the company is bad. I wasn't even going to bother watching this, but I did just to see how bad it would be.

10 - The $1 scope MTX - Don't care.
9 - They Killed Guitar Hero - Only partly. Both Guitar Hero and Rock Band were very niche (niche isn't quite the right word, fad or novelty would be better). They were great to play with friends or in a group, but over time the novelty wore off and we moved to other things..
8. They let Crash Bandicoot die - They even state "To be fair to Activision by this point the series was already a far cry from its heyday. ", while also saying they are still putting out a Crash game in 2019. Not to mention they didn't specifically buy Crash, they bought Vivendi. Overall a terrible item to be on the list.
7. Overhyping Destiny - Publisher number 2,294 to overhype a game.
6. Shutting down game studios - They shut down game studios after they release a bad game. Welcome to the corporate world. Happens in every industry.
5. Call of Duty: Elite - I'm not a CoD player, so maybe I don't quite fully grasp it. But it seems they tried a subscription service. It didn't work, and they cancelled it.
4. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 5 - I haven't played Tony Hawk in over a decade. Apparently it was a bad game, and they closed the studio.
3. Hiring Jamie Kennedy to host their 2007 E3 Panel - He did a bad job. This is seriously number 3? an E3 host from 12 years ago?
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare Remastered - They bundled it with another game, and added MTX to it. Madness.
1. Tweeting a fake terror attack. This was dumb. Much like one of my previous employers who staged a fake robbery to test their robbery procedures.

So that's 11 minutes of my life wasted. You complain they can't do anything right lately, then link a list whose top 3 items are from four, three, and twelve years ago, respectively. I guess we have different views on what lately means.

Micro-transactions and loot boxes may have worked at first for the AAA market, but eventually consumers got wise to these practices and are starting to avoid games with them. The mobile market is new and so are the people, so it'll be a while before those people catch on that this is a bad practice. Again, especially because children are huge on mobile.

The mobile market and MTX in the AAA market are almost identical in age. Please also cite a source showing that sales of games with MTX are declining compared to those without.

Lately I haven't seen any games that could be considered a classic. You'd have to go as far back as 2015 to fine some truly good games. But my point is that you don't have to play what's new and hot to get any enjoyment. Lots of older and probably better games have existed, specifically without micro-transactions and loot boxes.

And lost of newer and probably better games have been released recently, specifically with micro-transactions and loot boxes compared to many older games.

But your point above is actually a counter to many of your previous points. If an older, experienced gamer already has a collection of games they have purchased over the years that are "classics" and can thus continue playing them for their enjoyment and as such stop buying new ones, that can also contribute to the "decline" of the gaming industry. It's less that newer stuff is bad and more that they are content with what they have.

As it is now, the only argument you have presented is "I think MTX have caused the decline of video games because I said so"

[Dhrizzle]

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49074003




So not gambling, but it's a lottery. Which is gambling.

That's a big chunk of article you left out to force your point. The actual reason they give for loot-boxes not being gambling is,

because there is no official way to monetise what is inside them.

A prize has to be either money or have monetary value in order for it to fall under gambling legislation.

You also failed to grasp the difference between someone saying a thing is a lottery and a thing is like a lottery.

[Temp name]

That's a big chunk of article you left out to force your point. The actual reason they give for loot-boxes not being gambling is,

Speaking at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport select committee, Gambling Commission chief executive Neil McCarthur admitted that there were "significant concerns" around children playing video games in which there were elements of expenditure and chance.

The *ONLY* reason they don't consider it gambling is because their laws are out of date. They're working with old laws with very strict definitions. Belgium has updated their laws and found lootboxes to be gambling, the UK might follow suit.

You also failed to grasp the difference between someone saying a thing is a lottery and a thing is like a lottery.

You know what I call something that is a lot like gambling? Gambling. Or at least inappropriate to be found in a game rated 3+