View Poll Results: Should Holy get a rework?

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  • No

    89 29.37%
  • Yes

    214 70.63%
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  1. #21
    Yes Holy is a very confused spec. It’s mastery supports being in melee range but nothing else does. It makes the most sense fantasy wise to have a Paladin doing healing through damage and the easiest way to apply an atonement like mechanic would be through LoD but I have issues with that because ret would need to be fixed as well. I never understood why the beacon that made your mastery act like your beacon Target was taken out and wasn’t baked into the mastery. This dev crew is weird

  2. #22
    I have been playing an holy paladin since bc and in my opinion it has never felt this clunky. Especially this dreadful mastery.

    It's either an ok mastery or completely useless based on the range and I don't think mastery should ever be a dead stat and/or have such an important role on how you play.

  3. #23
    I played Holy Paladin all my WoW life until shortly before ToT release when I quit, but nowadays after I've come back, the spec is completely unplayable for me, and no amount of guides or practice makes me any better at it, and I really dislike the way it plays, so I don't have any motivation to learn it properly. Though I guess that's mostly a problem with me rather than the spec.

  4. #24
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    I think the Legion Holy was the pinnacle of the spec, and the most fun healer spec in Legion. Only with it i could have pop up double or triple 2mln aoe heals on a party with LoD, legendary ring and t20-t21 sets, only with it i could have go melee and feel myself the better dps then everyone for sometimes, only with i could literally have sustain the whole raid without burning down the mana pool, while every other healer drop on their knees with 1% of mana pool, only with it i felt the freedom because 90% of our healing spells were instant.
    Legion HP was an extremely satisfying spec. In BFA they just shit all over it, taking away all fun toys and leaving us with boring, dried core.

  5. #25
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Valen~ View Post
    Yes please.

    I believe WoTLK Holy is the pinnacle of the spec. Today's spec is literally extremely dry and there's nothing interesting to be aware of - just spam heals all you can and pop defences when it goes wrong.
    Hahahahaha! No. WotLK Holy is singlehandedly the most boring, one dimensional spec I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing playing.

    In my book, Cataclysm was the pinnacle of Holy Paladins. We had pretty much everything back then. Tons of instant cast heals with Infusion of Light procs, decent mobility, choice in single target heals to balance hps throughput and mana consumption, excellent at regaining mana, and actual AoE healing that didn't suck. The other versions of Holy in the following expansions that I have experienced felt like lighter versions of Cataclysm Holy rather than an evolution of the concept.
    Last edited by Frozen Death Knight; 2018-12-09 at 03:22 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight View Post
    Hahahahaha! No. WotLK Holy is singlehandedly the most boring, one dimensional spec I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing playing.

    In my book, Cataclysm was the pinnacle of Holy Paladins. We had pretty much everything back then. Tons of instant cast heals with Infusion of Light procs, decent mobility, choice in single target heals to balance hps throughput and mana consumption, excellent at regaining mana, and actual AoE healing that didn't suck. The other versions of Holy in the following expansions that I have experienced felt like lighter version of Cataclysm Holy rather than an evolution of the concept.
    I'd take Cataclysm a 1000 times too over today's iteration. Even MOP.

  7. #27
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    They need to rework and go one of two ways:

    1.) Embrace the fact that Holy Paladins are PALADINS and make us entirely melee healers, akin to Disc priests, whom can primarily heal via damage output. We don't need to deal that much damage, it's just a gameplay thing.

    2.) Embrace the earlier flavor of holy paladins as more akin to the traditional Cleric who performs their job from afar but is defensively capable when in melee.


    Right now it feels like we're kinda caught between the two and it just feels clumsy.

  8. #28
    Bring back wrath hpally

  9. #29
    Bloodsail Admiral Xkiller9000's Avatar
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    i want beacon to stay, thats very much what they are, and their single target healing stuff, but yea, ive wanted consecration, for example, to do aoe healing for forever

  10. #30
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    Does any of this people have logs? I'm curios what is your play style at this moment, i know your playstile from the past ( spaming holy light or holy radiance for aoe healing ..gg paladins are great) even now i'm having fun in raid as paladin holy, in m+ not so much,is a real strugle without a tank, that will control the pace of the grp.
    But overall, is not good but is not bad. Is just very active rotation, and it does not require so many traits to performe x2 archive of titans and 1 x lod.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dottzpg View Post
    Does any of this people have logs? I'm curios what is your play style at this moment, i know your playstile from the past ( spaming holy light or holy radiance for aoe healing ..gg paladins are great) even now i'm having fun in raid as paladin holy, in m+ not so much,is a real strugle without a tank, that will control the pace of the grp.
    But overall, is not good but is not bad. Is just very active rotation, and it does not require so many traits to performe x2 archive of titans and 1 x lod.
    It's about the general gameplay, not how it performs, it's just not fun to play

  12. #32
    TBC Hpala was great. 22mp5, brutal gladiator gloves with T6 and spam them Flash healz
    "Ahhh ahhhhh, ahhh, yeah, ahhhh, YEAH, YEAH, RIGHT THERE, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhh" Jenna Jameson

  13. #33
    yes please rework subtlety make it fun to play again.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    It's about the general gameplay, not how it performs, it's just not fun to play
    It's not fun in your opinion you mean? It's fine if you don't enjoy Holy, but I don't think that alone is good enough grounds for a complete overhaul.

    Most of our talent rows have at least two good options, situationally even all three are good. That's not a situation other classes are in at the moment. We bring lots of good external and group cooldowns, which are useful in Raids, M+ and PvP. Our intended weakness, dealing with prolonged periods of AoE damage, does make some encounters harder for us to deal with, but our utility spells can completely trivialise other mechanics too.

    Overall Holy feels like it's in a good place at the moment. Our HPS might be a little on the low side, but it's not so low as to make the spec unplayable or unusable by any means and is covered by our strong cooldowns. At a fundamental level, there's nothing wrong with Holy to warrent a rework of any kind.

    If I can ask though - What is it you think is so broken with Holy Paladins that would require a rework to fix?

  15. #35
    Brewmaster Demsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's not fun in your opinion you mean? It's fine if you don't enjoy Holy, but I don't think that alone is good enough grounds for a complete overhaul.

    Most of our talent rows have at least two good options, situationally even all three are good. That's not a situation other classes are in at the moment. We bring lots of good external and group cooldowns, which are useful in Raids, M+ and PvP. Our intended weakness, dealing with prolonged periods of AoE damage, does make some encounters harder for us to deal with, but our utility spells can completely trivialise other mechanics too.

    Overall Holy feels like it's in a good place at the moment. Our HPS might be a little on the low side, but it's not so low as to make the spec unplayable or unusable by any means and is covered by our strong cooldowns. At a fundamental level, there's nothing wrong with Holy to warrent a rework of any kind.

    If I can ask though - What is it you think is so broken with Holy Paladins that would require a rework to fix?
    For the most part the base gameplay, I think having holy shock crits be the bread and butter of the spec is a problem, as it becomes very hit or miss. It feels really bad when you dont crit, and when you do crit it isn't all that exciting because it's just more healing done.

    The other major problem is the mastery, it adds nothing to the gameplay and feels more punishing than rewarding, on certain fights (like kin'garoth) it felt pretty awful to heal because of this damn mastery.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It's not fun in your opinion you mean? It's fine if you don't enjoy Holy, but I don't think that alone is good enough grounds for a complete overhaul.

    Most of our talent rows have at least two good options, situationally even all three are good. That's not a situation other classes are in at the moment. We bring lots of good external and group cooldowns, which are useful in Raids, M+ and PvP. Our intended weakness, dealing with prolonged periods of AoE damage, does make some encounters harder for us to deal with, but our utility spells can completely trivialise other mechanics too.

    Overall Holy feels like it's in a good place at the moment. Our HPS might be a little on the low side, but it's not so low as to make the spec unplayable or unusable by any means and is covered by our strong cooldowns. At a fundamental level, there's nothing wrong with Holy to warrent a rework of any kind.

    If I can ask though - What is it you think is so broken with Holy Paladins that would require a rework to fix?
    I'm not them but I have a fair few:

    Mastery - completely antithetical to our identity as a spot healer, someone is out of the raid doing something and you're punished for healing them.

    Lack of cd variety - we used to have 4 individual throughput cooldowns that did different things - back then wings was the boring increased % healing one, avenging crusader even takes away from this imo as it's so rigid.

    Cds on gcd - best not be forced into any unexpected situations.

    No real raid cd - mercy is worthless and devo is too unless it prevents a one shot which it certainly can, just much less frequently than you can get use out of a throughput cd. Yes, sac was beyond broken but when there are other insane raid cds it's a bit puzzling to solely remove the one with the most gameplay.

    IoL usage - basically irrelevant with the ratio nerf and holy light buff, similarly the faith nerf puts direct tank healing very close to healing with transfer.

    Mobility - you avoid using divine steed because of the gcd, speed of light's 70% 8s duration was so much more practical and we had the other two options as well.

    Lotm - could do with being more defined, super strange they didn't incorporate the legendary cloak in any way.

    Holy power - I guess this is still pretty split but I stand by it adding far more gameplay than problems people had with it.

    Holy shock crit nerf is fairly minor at this point I think, maybe jarring when we lose reorigination array, but this also ties into IoL hardly mattering.

    Actually don't agree with the talents either, there's 1 m+ build especially now that zealotry is going away and in raids you have a couple legitimate choices on 3 rows provided you aren't aiming to handicap your raid. This all sounds quite negative but I still enjoy the spec, it could just be a lot better by looking at what it did right in the past. It may even show how overpowered we were before because I agree, we're still really good in terms of raid contribution.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    For the most part the base gameplay, I think having holy shock crits be the bread and butter of the spec is a problem, as it becomes very hit or miss. It feels really bad when you dont crit, and when you do crit it isn't all that exciting because it's just more healing done.
    The intended effect seems to be that it flips the role of your heals for the next cast. Holy Light is your fast, cheap but weak spell while Flash of Light is your expensive powerful heal. In that respect it does mix the game play up moment to moment. While it doesn't feel hugely impactful at the moment that's a tuning issue more than a mechanics one. I expect its one that is going to work itself out in time as gear improves, bonuses with flat %ages attached normally do.

    Having it tied to crit isn't inherently a bad idea, but what I think is missing is a way to force a crit when you need one. Perhaps on a short 90 second - 2 minute CD. It lets you tap into the mechanic on demand when you need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    The other major problem is the mastery, it adds nothing to the gameplay and feels more punishing than rewarding, on certain fights (like kin'garoth) it felt pretty awful to heal because of this damn mastery.
    I would argue the opposite, that our Mastery is the only one in the entire game with any actual gameplay attached to it. Other classes just get passive bonuses, things like extra HoT healing, more bleed damage and so on. Ours requires us to position well to get the most use out of it, in that respect it adds far more to our gameplay. As a stat it's usefulness is depenant on your playstyle which makes it more interesting than a simple binary stat.

    I can understand that it's not always the most popular mastery, but it's got a lot more to it than other classes get.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri sunset View Post
    No real raid cd - mercy is worthless and devo is too unless it prevents a one shot which it certainly can, just much less frequently than you can get use out of a throughput cd. Yes, sac was beyond broken but when there are other insane raid cds it's a bit puzzling to solely remove the one with the most gameplay.
    Devotion Aura with Aura Mastery is a solid raid CD. Unlike similar CD's (Spirit Link and Power Word: Barrier), it doesn't require everyone in the group to be stacked in it to work, merely that they're within 40 yards of the Paladin giving it a little more flexibility. Devotion Aura itself is also decent when your group is stacked up even without Aura Mastery active, 3% raid damage reduction is nothing to scoff at.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri sunset View Post
    Cds on gcd - best not be forced into any unexpected situations.

    Mobility - you avoid using divine steed because of the gcd, speed of light's 70% 8s duration was so much more practical and we had the other two options as well.
    Both of these affect everyone, not just Paladins. I agree that it takes away some of the flow of the spec, but it's not an issue exclusive to Holy Paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri sunset View Post
    Lotm - could do with being more defined, super strange they didn't incorporate the legendary cloak in any way.
    While it is thematically appropriate, it does just feel like "Worse Holy Shock" most of the time. The numbers seem off more than the actual mechanics of the spell itself though imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri sunset View Post
    Actually don't agree with the talents either, there's 1 m+ build especially now that zealotry is going away and in raids you have a couple legitimate choices on 3 rows provided you aren't aiming to handicap your raid.
    There's little over lap between which talents are good for M+ and which are good for raiding though. There are some talents which suck in PvE, but are good in Arena or BG's. Which is a good thing - It means those talents are better in specific situations. There are very few talent picks which just aren't worth taking at all. None of our talents are confusing, badly worded or even badly thought out.

    You simply pick the talents that best suit the content you're doing at the time, with a little wiggle room for personal preferance. It's what a well made, functional talent tree should look like. That's not to say it's perfect, but we've got it much better than others do for the moment.

  18. #38
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    My take on Holy is that it needs tweaks rather than a complete rework. I think having them be more melee centric as one of its specs like it is currently is an interesting idea, but in that case Holy should have a baseline interrupt like Ret and Prot have to help reinforce them as melee combatants.

    They could also buff Light of Dawn to make it heal for more than it currently does as well as make Consecration provide a HoT in its area to give the spec more interesting options for healing (could also make it a talent by having Light's Hammer replace Consecration with a CD that can be used on a regular basis instead of just every minute like it is now). Unless you are absolutely stacked with the right gear, traits, and talents, Light of Dawn feels like a complete waste of a spell to cast on its own, which to me is a big problem when healers like Mistweaver Monks have a lot of decent options from the start without needing all that gear to make the spec play nicely (currently levelling one and I am having a blast).

  19. #39
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    I've played holy since cata and BFA is the worst it has ever been. It is complete garbage.. The toolkit makes no sense and is completely contradictory. It was stripped of all the little bells that hid the horrible 7.0 prune.

  20. #40
    Rework Beacon. It's frustrating that almost a quarter of your healing in any given encounter is just passive beacon cleave. And think about it, with Mastery + Aura you ideally want to move near the tanks but you end up not healing them because it's a net HPS loss to not let your beacon cleave. Beacon feelsl ike a massive crutch.

    Give HPals huge single target heals that are designed to heal tanks - scaling with missing health, or damage taken in last Y seconds etc - and make Beacon some kind of uber cooldown instead (like 100% of all your healing is transferred to the target for X seconds).

    There's so much potential but when you compare HPals to recently overhauled specs like MW, Holy, Disc, and to a lesser extent RDruids, their kit is soooooo bland.

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