The warmode and the people ruining it

[lappee]

What is "worthwhile" though?

I maintain a speed leveling guide(as seen in my sig). What I discovered is that my time /played to reach level 110 was much faster than what most people considered acceptable and "normal". People were often posting times 20+ hours longer than what I was able to manage, and saying that they felt it was very fast. This STILL happens today. People also often claim that slower methods of leveling "Feel faster" pretty often.

I absolutely think this sort of thing would apply to people using PVP leveling. I also think you're over-estimating the lack of tolerance people would have for getting exp through PVP. Would a few people complain about the speed anyway? Sure. They do that right now with and without war mode.

And keep in mind here that the War Mode bonus exp is meant to augment regular PVE leveing, not replace it. As you, and others, have said: The exp is for mitigating the loss of time spent on PVP instead of on leveling normally. Just like with current War Mode, the idea would be to incentivize doing PVP while leveling up, but also for mitigating time NOT spent on questing/dungeons. I think that a fair amount of experience for kills could be reached that wasn't so low as to be pointless, but not so high as to be a subject for abuse.

Worthwhile would be to get around the same xp for doing WPvP as you'd get via normal leveling, much like arenas or battlegrounds currently are. At that point though it would be easy enough to abuse the system, which is the problem with these. If someone figures out a system that you can't abuse while your worthwhile rewards aren't being lowered either then everyone would be happy.

Either way if WPvP leveling is faster than normal PvE leveling then PvE'rs are mad cuz they feel "forced" to do the other, just like they're whining currently.

[SirCowdog]

Ganking low level players is not toxic.

And that's all I needed to know about your point of view. Good day, sir.

[Mead]

Seems you don't know much about MMOs because most of them DO punish it. Even WoW punished it in Vanilla.

But yeah go ahead and call people who have differing views than you "pathetic"... see how far that gets you.

The irony here is that the first few posts including OP are calling gankers "pathetic" throughout the entire thread. How far did that get you? Fact is that ganking is part of PvP. People gank to get people to go on their mains, escalate into a battle for a point on a map where you have many horde vs alliance. People gank because they can, much like killing a critter. If you don't like it, dont use Warmode. You know why there is an XP buff to WM? Because of gankers. You cant have both so stop asking.

If you want to PvP versus someone in your level range only guess what, they have a que system for that in random BGs and you dont even have to leave a rested place to use it! You dont even need warmode on for that! You also get XP for completion of the BG! What a great system dont you agree?

If you are out in the open world and you are red, you are dead. Plain and simple.

[SirCowdog]

Worthwhile would be to get around the same xp for doing WPvP as you'd get via normal leveling, much like arenas or battlegrounds currently are.

At that point though it would be easy enough to abuse the system, which is the problem with these. If someone figures out a system that you can't abuse while your worthwhile rewards aren't being lowered either then everyone would be happy.

Either way if WPvP leveling is faster than normal PvE leveling then PvE'rs are mad cuz they feel "forced" to do the other, just like they're whining currently.

Just an FYI: BGs only give around half a level for a WIN, and much MUCH less for a loss. While you can level using BGs, it's about the most sub-optimal method of leveling available.

I think it's a mistake to assume that doing WPVP should be a complete replacement for normal leveling. Now if there were various PVP objectives to be taken over, or missions to complete to replace quests, then maybe I could see a case for it. But regular kills? I don't think that's viable.

As long as we're comparing WPVP kill experience to current War Mode bonuses, then exp from kills would only be a suppliment to regular PVE leveling, EXACTLY how War Mode suppliments things in the live version of the game. Again, I point out that I think it's VERY possible to reach a number where players are rewarded fairly for engaging in PVP, but not so much that it's good enough to totally replace leveling, even while exploiting.

- - - Updated - - -

The irony here is that the first few posts including OP are calling gankers "pathetic" throughout the entire thread. How far did that get you? Fact is that ganking is part of PvP. People gank to get people to go on their mains, escalate into a battle for a point on a map where you have many horde vs alliance.

If you are out in the open world and you are red, you are dead. Plain and simple.

Couldn't this same thing be accomplished by scaling low level players up, or high level players down, to where large battles could happen spontaneously without resorting to toxic actions like ganking low level players? If a person could actually fight back on their leveling character, would that ALSO lead to battles?

[crazyfool319]

It's not broken as it was never intended to be perfectly balanced. Sorry, but you're just flat out wrong.

If its not broken then why did they literally just try to fix it by changing the rewards. I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong and the 30% buff is actual proof of it.

[Spiffums]

Did people not realize this is what life was like on PvP servers? Did people not think getting lumped into a shard with people who have played on PvP servers for the last 14 years would be like this. Guess what sunshine......PvP servers have always been like this and WarMode is the new PvP server.

[Mead]

Couldn't this same thing be accomplished by scaling low level players up, or high level players down, to where large battles could happen spontaneously without resorting to toxic actions like ganking low level players? If a person could actually fight back on their leveling character, would that ALSO lead to battles?

No. If you can compete on your low level then why would you call for back up? Why would you log on your main to fight me? Ganking is just one way to get this accomplished. Others form Raids of 40 man 120's and run around ganking other 120's doing wq. Should you not be allowed to form raids then? And yes they camp. Being 120 means I should be able to overpower you in very nature by the fact Im 120 with 120 gear. Gank because can, if you cant handle being ganked you shouldnt be getting the awards for being ganked. Dont do War Mode if you dont like being ganked.

WPvP is also a driving force for immersion into the faction system. You can see it in the comments, horde this, alliance that. Being ganked by one faction or the other gives you real reason to form that hatred for the other faction.

[Teri]

I remember the day they launched RP-PVP realm type (Patch 1.8), so that was quite a while after the actual launch, but fresh Vanilla servers.

I got up to level 40 doing the occasional world pvp at the start where people were actually questing on shared zones like Stonetalon and Ashenvale, had some of the best low level pvp experiences as there was no flying or level 50s yet.

But for me it was an alt-server (yes even people in Vanilla had Alts), so after a while , of course people started to hit level 50+, and went to Stranglethorn and such to kill people.

I never got beyond level 40, but I fully knew the risks of rolling on a pvp realm, and I think killing players was fair game.

But at max level it had it's risks when you wanted to seriously care about pvp ranks.

Also, before people tell about Dishonorable kills, I got 1 from an NPC by accident when raiding Thunder Bluff City Boss (which would push pvp progress for the whole faction) when I was pushing rank 13, and that set me back enough to need another week of progress.

[SirCowdog]

Did people not realize this is what life was like on PvP servers? Did people not think getting lumped into a shard with people who have played on PvP servers for the last 14 years would be like this. Guess what sunshine......PvP servers have always been like this and WarMode is the new PvP server.

No, people honestly didn't know that this was what it was like. Why do you think Blizzard had to incentivize it? They knew damn well people who had never set foot in a PVP server wouldn't like getting ganked.

The problem is that no amount of incentive will make getting ganked fun. The people who have been doing it for years are desensitized to it, or have been doing it so long they literally can't see the flaws with it.

[nymphetsss]

While in other topic people are discussing about the changes in warmode in 8.1., I made this topic,to find out what do you think about the players,who use the warmode to gank low levels for hours.

Recently I started to level my dark iron alt and decided to level him in the Duskwood. Now,before you start yelling "you have a warmode on,what did you expect?", I want to point out one important thing - It's understandable,that you will get killed in the warmode - once or twice,but when a 120 lvl is camping the area for hours,forcing people to bring their mains,gank him and in the minute they relog back,that guy is back and killing low levels,I think,that's quite pathetic. In the end,you are forced to stay online on your main to safeguard the zone instead of actually doing what you want - leveling an alt.

Eventually,it leads people to porting to Stormwind and turning the warmode off - what's the point of having the warmode enabled,if you end up at the graveyard in 10 seconds? And so,people who don't have 120 lvl characters,just port away,disable the warmode and never enable it again - which brings us to the situation,that is being discussed about the buffs for the least represented faction.

I understand,that the World PvP has never been "fair" - no and it won't, and I think,it's fine,when 120 lvl players make raids and raid zones - it's part of world PvP. But when such individuals,who got nothing to do,camp a low level zones for hours - well,that's just pathetic.

I think,that people like that druid should be "punished" - they should get debuffs or lose their honor points when they kill low level players. What do you think?

What do you think "world pvp" is? It was never about nice fair fights, its about rogues waiting until you are low hp to one shot ambush you, being ganked 5v1 and camped for hours, higher levels camping forever. People never fight unless the have an overwhelming advantage. It has been like this since vanilla , people get off ruining other peoples day.

Turn warmode off, they gave you this for a reason. This game is carebear enough already

[SirCowdog]

No. If you can compete on your low level then why would you call for back up? Being 120 means I should be able to overpower you in very nature by the fact Im 120 with 120 gear. Gank because can, if you cant handle being ganked you shouldnt be getting the awards for being ganked. Dont do War Mode if you dont like being ganked.

Let's actually think about this for a second:

1) You fought but you still lost. Maybe because the person was better than you, or because there were mobs.
2) There was more than 1 person attacking you.
3) Maybe another person from your faction joined in spontaneously because they were there, and the ganker got his friends to retaliate.
4) You need help tracking down a rogue or druid using stealth.

It's not always just about being an ass long and hard enough to provoke a response.

Why would you log on your main to fight me?

You wouldn't need to. You could just fight. No extra step required. No traveling from wherever your main is. No need to waste time trying to figure out where the ganker is.

You just fight. Why is that a problem?

Others form Raids of 40 man 120's and run around ganking other 120's doing wq. Should you not be allowed to form raids then?

What? Non-sequitur. Explain this, because it doesn't make any sense.

Being 120 means I should be able to overpower you in very nature by the fact Im 120 with 120 gear.

So by that logic the person with better gear should ALWAYS be entitled to win? Like it's some kind of right you've earned by farming gear? This logic makes no sense to me. You seem to believe that your level and gear should determine victory instead of player skill.

It's player vs player. Not gear vs gear. And while equipment and talent choices can determine playstyle, it should be the more skilled player who wins, not just who has the better gear. Otherwise Mythic raiders would always win, and your ability to fight would be determined by your PVE progression instead of your PVP skills.

WPvP is also a driving force for immersion into the faction system. You can see it in the comments, horde this, alliance that. Being ganked by one faction or the other gives you real reason to form that hatred for the other faction.

And this is why it's toxic. It's foundation is based in hate and salt. Why is that a good thing? Act this way in any other part of the game and Blizzard shuts it down. Spew hate or bile into any forum, chat channel, or group and you'll get slapped by a GM. But somehow because it's an RP reason, it's ok?

Not to mention the RP effect could just as easily be accomplished by simply fighting other players roughly your same level. Why is creating a situation where one player literally can't fight back required? I'll answer that for you: It's not.

People just like ganking because it gives them a little sadistic jolt of glee. It makes them feel powerful because they had control over another player for a little bit. And then it makes them the center of attention when people are forced to log onto mains to deal with them(which again gives them a tiny form of control over another player). And so they make up all kinds of excuses and rationalizations to keep doing it.

Because if they were actually interested in real wPVP they'd be in capped zones seeking capped players to fight, not bottom feeding in low level areas with the intent to piss people off.

[Nerovar]

No, people honestly didn't know that this was what it was like. Why do you think Blizzard had to incentivize it? They knew damn well people who had never set foot in a PVP server wouldn't like getting ganked.

What the actual fuck? People didn't know that you would get ganked on PvP servers? Give me a break. It's the main reason why this "feature" even exists. Because all these carebears who chose the wrong server kept crying rivers.

The people who have been doing it for years are desensitized to it, or have been doing it so long they literally can't see the flaws with it.

"I know what's best for people. They don't know what they really want. I do."

And this is why it's toxic. It's foundation is based in hate and salt. Why is that a good thing?

Because it's only a game and nobody cares as long as it keeps you going. It's actually a really good motivator to git gud and kill the other faction.

Because if they were actually interested in real wPVP they'd be in capped zones seeking capped players to fight, not bottom feeding in low level areas with the intent to piss people off.

This guy knows what real World PvP is (instanced PvP in the "open" world) omegalul

[tyrlaan]

While in other topic people are discussing about the changes in warmode in 8.1., I made this topic,to find out what do you think about the players,who use the warmode to gank low levels for hours.

Recently I started to level my dark iron alt and decided to level him in the Duskwood. Now,before you start yelling "you have a warmode on,what did you expect?", I want to point out one important thing - It's understandable,that you will get killed in the warmode - once or twice,but when a 120 lvl is camping the area for hours,forcing people to bring their mains,gank him and in the minute they relog back,that guy is back and killing low levels,I think,that's quite pathetic. In the end,you are forced to stay online on your main to safeguard the zone instead of actually doing what you want - leveling an alt.

Eventually,it leads people to porting to Stormwind and turning the warmode off - what's the point of having the warmode enabled,if you end up at the graveyard in 10 seconds? And so,people who don't have 120 lvl characters,just port away,disable the warmode and never enable it again - which brings us to the situation,that is being discussed about the buffs for the least represented faction.

I understand,that the World PvP has never been "fair" - no and it won't, and I think,it's fine,when 120 lvl players make raids and raid zones - it's part of world PvP. But when such individuals,who got nothing to do,camp a low level zones for hours - well,that's just pathetic.

I think,that people like that druid should be "punished" - they should get debuffs or lose their honor points when they kill low level players. What do you think?

I struggle to find sympathy for lowbies that get camped, and I say that as someone who's played lowbies on a pvp server and got camped.

You get what you sign up for. If someone camps a lowbie spot for hours I think you can legit report them for griefing, but honestly this is just the nature of the world pvp beast.

There's a reason I stopped playing on PVP servers.

Side note: who sees other players at low levels? Last toon I leveled maybe came across like 3 players over the course of 20 to 110.

[Rozz]

Tbh you should just level with Warmode off and doing so with it on is a risk reward as Blizz intended.

In old pvp servers, they said this mess was part of the pvp experience and shrugged it off. I doubt they'll ever fix warmode, esp since they can always say "opt out of it". Even with those xp gains, you still have heirlooms, an xp nerf coming, a new xp pot, etc. If you want to pvp at a low level, you should do battlegrounds.

I feel you, I really do. I've been ganked a billion times and never had a warmode feature to opt into, but I just don't think Blizz will listen.

[SirCowdog]

This guy knows what real World PvP is (instanced PvP in the "open" world) omegalul

Having spent 5 years in EVE online, 5 years on a wow PVP server, and several years in each of ESO and GW2s open world pvp zones, Shadowbane, as well as playing DAOC and UO back in the day, yes, I'd say I've got a pretty firm grasp of what real world PVP should be, both good and bad. WoW's open world PVP is a joke. It's a PVE world with a haflassed pvp flag slapped onto it without thought. FFS, even Dark Souls has better open world PVP than WoW!

Do you really think ganking low level players requires ANY skill? Any thought, or practice? Is there any challenge or risk to it? You don't even need good gear to do it! Calling it PVP is like having an adult beat up small children and claiming you're a MMA fighter.

So no, "Real PVP" doesn't include ganking low level players. Anyone who thinks it does probably hasn't ever been exposed to quality open world PVP.

[InfiniteCharger]

Although I get what you're saying...Warmode quite literally includes bonuses to leveling and rewards, so Blizzard clearly intended it to be used for leveling.

If anything, it's stupid not to use Warmode when leveling (certainly sub 60, where there are mostly faction specific zones). They've created the worse of both worlds somehow - it's either a boon to leveling at zero risk to the point of being almost mandatory (99% of the time), or you're getting ganked by some guy +90 levels and then you just turn it off and carry on your day. You're either using it for leveling or it's turned off because you're getting ganked. There's no PVP element to it, really.

I've leveled 3 alts through Kul Tiras with it on and had zero instances of organic PvP. And I'm leveling a DI Dwarf and again, zero organic PVP.

Agreed. Using war mode to speed up leveling as opposed to being able to attack other players is the issue. The funny part is when people join war mode to attack other players they are called gankers..... LOL. Which just begins a whole circular argument about why it isn't fair somebody got shot in the back before they were ready to fight back. Of course they won't say that, they will just keep rolling out that old I got ganked by somebody 90 levels above me all day as if most players actually believe that.

- - - Updated - - -

Well ain't that cute? But it's wrooong!

Blizzard gives rewards to make people enable warmode. And as we can see, many people are not giving a damn about rewards, they won't participate because world PvP is flawed and drastically unfair in the first place. The fact that Blizzard considers tripling rewards for the faction that participates less shows how much people actually don't care about said reward.

There are people out there who would be part of world PvP if they knew it was a fair experience. When people who fight all have a chance of doing something, for many the experience is its own reward. But Blizzard doesn't want to fix that, so people ignore warmode.

Personally I couldn't care less about reward from warmode. I'm not going to go with a knife into a gunfight and no ammount of reward will convince me to change my mind. Now allow me to compete with other people on my level and let others fight in their own brackets and I would welcome that without any reward. Because that would be fun.

OK. So were you playing BFA at launch? If so, what other players were so super powered over you in war mode that you didn't have a chance in a fight?


See where I am going?

What do you mean by fair? Not getting stabbed by rogue by surprise in Dalaran sewers?

Seriously?

People should stop using this lame argument that I am some lowbie alt running through the game all alone and helpless waiting to get stepped on by some big meanie.

I mean are you already finished the max level content and now just leveling alts?

And if max level PVP was so interesting and appealing to you why aren't you doing it, assuming you have characters at max level?

Why is it the same old "my lowbie needs a safe space" over and over and over again as if you just started playing yesterday?

If you aren't in war mode for the express purpose of PVP, which means killing other players then you aren't interested in PVP.
There is no other way to put it now that you have a toggle. You toggle it on, go look for a fight and when you are done you can turn it off or leave it on. But this nonsense about being "stuck" in an unfair PVP environment as in the old days of PVP servers is ridiculous.

I mean is it "fair" that somebody can blow your head off from a mile away with a sniper rifle in Battlfield 5 or shoot you in the back with a Bazooka?

Who on earth are you kidding? That is PVP. The only difference is that once you die in these other "match based" games, you are out or have to respawn. In WOW, like the real world, you just have to run back to your corpse. There is no "match". There is no "battle royale" timer or shrinking zone. Otherwise it is the same idea, PVP is somebody being able to shoot you in the back while you aren't looking.

That is the point. At least in WOW you don't really "lose" anything as in no points and not even any item durability.

[Strippling]

Or how about don't turn on war mode if you don't want to get ganked. When the hell will the punishment for doing as the server rules intend stop? Oh, that's right, it never will. This is a slippery slope with no realistic finish.

It's not about punishing for the sake of it, it's about encouraging players to pvp at their own level rather than grief lowbies. If a higher level player wants to gank a lowbie, then sure... go ahead. The consequence is a "minor" debuff, if they continue to harass the lowbie then that "minor" debuff becomes a "major" debuff eventually.

That way the incentive is still there for lowbies to level relatively safely from higher levels, but still being able to enjoy WPvP with players similar level to them.

[Mayia]

I have 4 120's. Albeit, 3 of which were levelled as horde (my main faction), 1 as alliance. So yes, my sample size is low for levelling on the alliance side. But, that is because after experiencing the non-stop ganks while levelling, why would I want to put myself through that again?

I can tell you that across my 3 toons levelled as horde, I've been ganked less times across all 3 then I have on my 1 alliance toon. I'm not sure why your insinuating that I'm blaming anyone, I was simply telling you my experience levelling.

i am saying, you being ganked is still within tolerance of the leveling 10% boost you gain, so its more a preference of yours now, either being ganked makes you so sad gaining 2-4% more exp including being ganked is still unworthy to do or some other reason.

Its because people don't want to be ganked that more people just turn it off and keep it off but its a mind set that is wrong, if everyone who didn't want to be ganked turned it back on you'd be ganked far less often just because there would be more targets.

I understand its not a great feeling to be overwhelmed by numbers or levels but you still gain from the experience and shying away from it then complaining about it does nothing, because Blizzard don't know how to fix the in-balance in the factions its a real issue.
If anything Highelves might be the best option.. if High elves were added to the alliance perhaps some of the overwhelming bloodelves would change to high elves.. lol.

But Warmode is fine even now its still worth while exp wise to keep it on and get ganked a couple of times per zone.. and you just make sure you pay attention to general and know what your doing/where you are going so not to run into horde hubs and draw more attention.
Another example is the temple in Voldun getting in and out as fast as possible is always my goal when grabbing the flight path there and doing anything nearby, i'm sure there are similar examples i can't think of right now..

But its about understanding where horde are likely to be or alliance or whatever.
Having leveled on pvp servers before this its always about not being worth killing, if somebody is camping you make it boring don't res go take a break switch zones/characters etc don't fight back when there is no chance, and in other cases fight back and kill them when its possible.

[lappee]

Just an FYI: BGs only give around half a level for a WIN, and much MUCH less for a loss. While you can level using BGs, it's about the most sub-optimal method of leveling available.

I think it's a mistake to assume that doing WPVP should be a complete replacement for normal leveling. Now if there were various PVP objectives to be taken over, or missions to complete to replace quests, then maybe I could see a case for it. But regular kills? I don't think that's viable.

As long as we're comparing WPVP kill experience to current War Mode bonuses, then exp from kills would only be a suppliment to regular PVE leveling, EXACTLY how War Mode suppliments things in the live version of the game. Again, I point out that I think it's VERY possible to reach a number where players are rewarded fairly for engaging in PVP, but not so much that it's good enough to totally replace leveling, even while exploiting.

If you're doing BG's solo, sure they're pretty bad. Got a group going? they're super strong since you can win the bg's in around 5 minutes and the only limiting factor is queue times.

WPvP shouldn't replace normal leveling but when you do see someone of the opposing faction it should be worthwhile to go and kill them. You're obviously not going to see people all the time and you will get killed by high levels if WM leveling gets more popular since people hire bodyguards, which in turn will spark more high/max level WPvP.

I seriously doubt you can find a balance between worthwhile XP from player kills (enough to get you out of your way to kill opponents, even with the risk of them dying) and low enough to get rid of abusers who would just farm each other to death. People are doing it for Honor all the time even after the nerfs, its just not as super good as it was when bounties first came out.

[Jazzhands]

Then turn warmode off..... typical whiny entitled shits.... *waaaaaaaaaaa, I want all the benefits of warmode but people are killing me and its not fair.....waaaaaaaaaaaaa*

You literally have to travel OUT OF YOUR WAY to enable it... you want the bonuses? Live with the drawbacks... or turn it off and never worry about being ganked again.. its that simple

I don't want the bonus. I want world pvp. If you read most of my posts in this thread, I continuously say the bonus needs to be removed, and that tripling the alliance buff was a really bad idea.