What side was alterac valley or PVP in general biased towards?

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbpgWkPbNc4

In this video it talks about old Alterac Valley but the presenter is controversial in claiming the it was biased towards alliance.
Horde also had basic advantages in PvP like the shaman or will of the forsaken.

Judging by the comments he has missed important details or he wasn't an original classic player.

I have collected some of them to save you time.

Viscount Thalvaus
11 months ago (edited)
It's fun watching how AV evolved. Horde (Hail Hydra) had a massive advantage in Vanilla AV that organized groups could take advantage of and win most of the time (and disadvantages that pugs had to fight against, as shown in the video). There were also many horde-specific bugs that Blizzard refused to use that were the bane of the Alliance. It wasn't until the game was turned into a universal speed-fest -- and the moving of the cave -- that the starting positions and geography became more apparent. It was so much easier to call the wolf riders, wyverns and summon their Raid Boss than it was for the Alliance due to geographic locations. Wolves were out of Alliance player's sights, as were the rams you had to kill for the fur. Whereas wolves to kill were smack dab in front of the Hordes base / main respawn / closest flag that was outside. Any alliance that attempted to kill them were sniped immediately. And riding upwards from the horde base -- and the wide open area -- allowed the horde to see who was going after rams.

Not to mention the summoning point of the Icelord being hidden behind a mountain, with the Alliance version placed smack dab in the horde's path to reach the Alliance base. You had to be winning already to be able to summon the tree, or have half of your army protecting a ritual that could be disturbed with a tap. Add to that that the placement of most horde NPCs were where the Alliance typically rode, and the alliance defensive NPCs could easily be avoided. The towers were a double edged sword as it was easy to capture alliance towers as a rogue -- if you knew how -- and incredibly easy to defend horde towers initially. One good fear could make you run outside without a chance to defend. So capping it was exceedingly difficult if an organized group was defending it as it took 5 minutes to take down, and could be taken back with minimal forces and efforts.

When the BG was altered to be a speed run for optimal efficiency, it's people's mindsets that took over more than small advantages either way. "Just let them win for quick honor / five minute matches". This was oft fought against by organized PvP groups throughout the years, and many such groups came up with the choke point to turtle a victory and have an impenetrable wall to guard their towers and burn the alliance's (which was easier to burn for those that knew what they were doing). At this point, both horde and alliance players started to dislike this tactic as they were ultimately getting less currency as a whole, which prompted a boycott of the battleground. It was moreso an issue of disrupting the status quo than victory, and both the alliance and horde players began to leave the BG in droves when they heard the words "turtle" in the horde chat (or saw it happening) as taking the penalty was more efficient. This further proved the "invincibility" of the tactic since the Alliance only charged with half their strength, with the others instantly quitting.

There was also the whole Ice Lord being vastly superior in A.I. while the forest lord could be kited; plus the Horde Captain's fear and higher defense rating oft caused alliance to reset by accident.

Doctor Ferdinand
8 months ago
Great video, but you missed one great moment in AV. In mid BC the Horde could pull Van in such a way that despawned all of his guards, allowing the Horde to attack him alone as if all the towers were destroyed.

Malsavias S
9 months ago
You neglect the fact that hordes gate into the central area is a chokepoint covered by both horde towers, easily. It's also tighter to hold allowing the horde to bunker and cover the towers easier where the alliance, Dunbaldur towers are much more spread and only have one tower to cover the bridge until the horde push past it. Remember you're not in the horde base till you've moved up the hill.

[Kokolums]

There was no counter in vanilla to Paladin bubble, and only alliance had paladins. That means a team of 2-3 paladins could run behind enemy lines and backcap all the graveyards and there was NO counter. In practice, paladins almost never did this, but if they DID, alliance would never lose.

Mass dispel came along in BC and finally could remove bubble.

[AeneasBK]

Mass dispel came along in BC and finally could remove bubble.

Pretty sure that was a Wrath spell.

Certainly in TBC they made it so you can't interact with flags while immune. . .

OT: For random ass WPvP then its pretty much up to player skill / gear. For organised PvP Alliance just has a much better toolkit from Paladins than Horde get from Shaman. Right?

[Shisui-kun]

Horde was stronger in PuG battlegrounds than alliance due to the racials being slightly stronger than the alliance ones. In premades, alliance always were a good bit stronger due to Paladin's being very good PvP healers. While stun resist and WotF were really strong, the alliance ones had some very strong uses as well.

Pretty sure that was a Wrath spell.

It was a TBC spell and it did remove immunities back then

The Burning Crusade Patch 2.4.0 (2008-03-25): Increased the number of affected targets from 5 to 10.
The Burning Crusade Patch 2.2.0 (2007-09-25): Has a chance to be resisted when dispelling immunity effects. This will be displayed in the combat log. In addition, it will no longer cause rogues and druids in [Cat Form] to lose [Stealth]. The flashing area graphic has been removed.
The Burning Crusade Patch 2.1.0 (2007-05-22): Mana cost reduced.
The Burning Crusade Patch 2.0.10 (2007-03-06): Changed to always pick immunity-granting effects as its target. Note that even if [Ice Block], [Divine Shield], or [Banish] are dispelled by Mass Dispel, you'll still get an "Immune" message even though it has been removed.
The Burning Crusade Patch 2.0.3 (2007-01-09): Added.

[Thunderball]

Very strong alliance bias. DB bridge is just too OP. Not to mention travel times to objectives is lower. The only thing that Horde had an advantage in is lotus farming.

[Kralljin]

There was no counter in vanilla to Paladin bubble, and only alliance had paladins. That means a team of 2-3 paladins could run behind enemy lines and backcap all the graveyards and there was NO counter. In practice, paladins almost never did this, but if they DID, alliance would never lose.

Would still love to read a source on Paladins being able to tap while bubble is active, even during Vanilla.

AFAIK, Pallies could even force their own FC to drop the flag if they gave them BoP.

Very strong alliance bias. DB bridge is just too OP. Not to mention travel times to objectives is lower. The only thing that Horde had an advantage in is lotus farming.

Horde can close off their base at Iceblood if they want to, no Shadowstep shenanigans to get through there, stealth slowing and being less effective makes it even difficult for rogues and druids.

Sure, Bridge is nice and all, but you basically hand the Horde control over the entire map, which means they have plenty of time to summon:
Wolfriders
Infantry attack
Lokholar
2/3 Wing Commander

[Deleted]

if you look at the broad picture of PvP most of it was decently balanced.

if you start looking at individual aspects of PvP you'll find there are plenty of imbalances scattered around.

taking AV as an example, the map itself was balanced in favour of the alliance, with better strategic flag placement for their main base as well as the forward bunkers.
that combined with the single entrance to the alliance base being a bridge that forces al enemies to funnel in while also being pelted by hard to reach/counter archer NPC's makes it a defenders wet dream.

however, if we look at individual benefits such as class or racial abilities it's clear that the horde has more races with powerful racial abilities well suited for PvP.

if we take a look at the paladin VS shaman debate from over a decade ago, both classes bring/brought something to the table with paladin boasting the survivability while shaman had the burst. it's up to the individuals that use these classes to actually use them to the best of their ability, something the majority of the player base will never achieve.


all in all, looking back on it, the developers PvP bias of last decade was minor at most.

[Shiny212]

PvP wasn't imbalanced factionwise tbh. It's a myth borne out of horde generally being better at everything in vanilla/tbc/wotlk, better raid progress and better pvp players. This had to do with the players playing the faction, not the racials.

AV was just objectively biased favouring alliance though, it's not a symmetrical map, and various things make alliance better there.

[Lumineus]

There was no counter in vanilla to Paladin bubble, and only alliance had paladins. That means a team of 2-3 paladins could run behind enemy lines and backcap all the graveyards and there was NO counter. In practice, paladins almost never did this, but if they DID, alliance would never lose.

Mass dispel came along in BC and finally could remove bubble.

How long did that work for, five minutes?

<err_text>You cannot interact with that object while invulnerable.</err_text>

[Deleted]

Large alliance bias. Their base was almost impossible to capture with that bridge and two bunkers defending it, while on the horde side alliance could even bypass the main gate by jumping the wall.

[Thunderball]

Horde can close off their base at Iceblood if they want to,

Impossible to do, even in a premade game. There are no passive defenses there: no endlessly respawning NPCs, no archers killing any clothie in 5 seconds, etc.

no Shadowstep shenanigans to get through there, stealth slowing and being less effective makes it even difficult for rogues and druids.

A lot easier than through the defended DB bridge. Not to mention you have to be a premade to defend there.

Sure, Bridge is nice and all, but you basically hand the Horde control over the entire map, which means they have plenty of time to summon:
Wolfriders
Infantry attack
Lokholar
2/3 Wing Commander

You dont have to turtle in there, just defend 30 people push with 10 people.

[Chaelexi]

Would still love to read a source on Paladins being able to tap while bubble is active, even during Vanilla.

AFAIK, Pallies could even force their own FC to drop the flag if they gave them BoP.



Horde can close off their base at Iceblood if they want to, no Shadowstep shenanigans to get through there, stealth slowing and being less effective makes it even difficult for rogues and druids.

Sure, Bridge is nice and all, but you basically hand the Horde control over the entire map, which means they have plenty of time to summon:
Wolfriders
Infantry attack
Lokholar
2/3 Wing Commander

in 1.12 you could do the rush strat for alliance and it was almost unstoppable.

[Kokolums]

Pretty sure that was a Wrath spell.

Certainly in TBC they made it so you can't interact with flags while immune. . .

OT: For random ass WPvP then its pretty much up to player skill / gear. For organised PvP Alliance just has a much better toolkit from Paladins than Horde get from Shaman. Right?

Its not about interacting with flags while LOLimmune. What 2-3 paladins could do was chain bubble and heal each other once they tapped the flag. It was actually impossible to kill them before the flag turned. It was a guaranteed cap. And even if you COULD kill them, it required a huge team to get it done, which means the front collapses and the alliance start pushing you back. And it was also very boring to try to kill 3 paladins grouped up so most people just ran away when they saw it.

You could sit there and beat on 3 paladins for 5 minutes and maybe kill them. Maybe. Or just run to the front and get 349837409374 kills.

[vipers]

There was no counter in vanilla to Paladin bubble, and only alliance had paladins. That means a team of 2-3 paladins could run behind enemy lines and backcap all the graveyards and there was NO counter. In practice, paladins almost never did this, but if they DID, alliance would never lose.

Mass dispel came along in BC and finally could remove bubble.

Elite npc was so OP that you really needed good group

[Gavll]

There was no counter in vanilla to Paladin bubble, and only alliance had paladins. That means a team of 2-3 paladins could run behind enemy lines and backcap all the graveyards and there was NO counter. In practice, paladins almost never did this, but if they DID, alliance would never lose.

Mass dispel came along in BC and finally could remove bubble.

You can't interact with flags while invulnerable

OT: Alliance have a slight advantage in AV but in general Horde racials are far superior for PvP

[caervek]

Depends what you mean by bias.

AV in general was shockingly well balanced considering everything going on, it was always a 50/50 who would win, however the battleground itself was slightly biased towards the Alliance in order to offset the hordes advantage, this is why it was still a coin toss which way the battle would go even though you saw the ice lord every few games yet the big tree was seen by less vanilla players than the inside of Naxxramas.

[McNeil]

Haven't done AV in a long ass time but I remember heavy Alliance bias. The bridge was a perfect choking point, their objectives are a lot closer, they get to storm into the Horde village without having to clear the place. I don't think that Balinda and Galvangar were equally balanced either (Galvangar ALWAYS died a lot faster).

[zoefschildpad]

I don't know what the theoretical balance was like, but the actual win rates varied massively by server. On my server Horde always won. It was just the way it was.

[AeneasBK]

Everyone saying the bridge was a choke point, but every AV I did on private servers horde would take the backdoor and ignore the bridge anyway. . .

[anon5123]

better raid progress.

Blessing of Salvation says "hi".

Horde had huge threat issues in raids and DPS had to slow down / stop or they'd pull aggro with crits or windfury procs.