Tragedy, rage, and "kicking ass" ≠ Strong Female Character™

[thottstation]

TL;DR: Meerah (and Dolly & Dot) is a stronger female character than Jaina, Sylvanas, Tyrande... and all the other "badass" female characters combined.






The problem with so many "Strong Female Characters™" these days is that they're strong male characters.

Y'know what men find "awesome" and "cool"? Fictional characters who get SUPER ANGRY and start kicking ass and fighting and destroying whole armies with awesome weapons and powers because this character tragically lost family and friends and all they held dear and it's so tragic and sad and (kneels in devastation) "NOOOOOooooooo~!") and their eyes go bloodshot and they start unleashing fury and rage and DIE DIE DIE [explosions everywhere] and...

You get the idea.

Jaina just wanted to study, liked wearing girly dresses and was proud of her midriff. She was a naturally talented mage and weaved ice magic and just wanted everyone to get along, and pleaded for peace and wanted her dad to stop being so hostile to her big ripped orc friend who's not that bad and his surly friends who look scary but also aren't that bad. Strong Female Character.

BUT THEN she suffered horrific loss and everyone she cared for died and her most beloved friends died and she cried inconsolable tears of grief and went kinda insane and unleashed her fury and purged Dalaran and started covering herself up in armor. Strong ̶F̶e̶male Character.™

Sylvanas freed herself from those telling her what to do and left with her friends and set up her own place where she and all her friends can live together and flips off the whole world who doesn't approve and she's damn proud of her midriff and doesn't care what people think. Strong Female Character.

BUT THEN she started ordering massacre after massacre and now rules the Horde because the last guy handed her the job but everyone resents her anyway, and now the story is about how unqualified and bad she is and everyone's talking behind her back, but it's okay because in war sometimes the only way to win is to kill everyone, and started covering herself up in armor. Strong ̶F̶e̶male Character.™

Tyrande is the ruler of her people even though she couldn't open that jar herself that one time so she had to wake her boyfriend up, but she's still the ruler and is a high warrior priestess which means she can wear amazing silk robes bathed in starlight and ordained in finery while also having a bow and riding a huge cat and lives in a giant tree and can walk around barefoot all she wants while she protects her world and can strategically outmaneuver everyone because she's thousands of years old but still looks amazing and has a literal army of warrior women and giant cats. Strong Female Character.

BUT THEN SHITS ON FIRE YO Night Elves are an endangered species because they all burned screaming and now Tyrande is a refugee with everyone living on Stormwind streets and it's depressing and holocaust and stuff and now she's The Night Warrior and is rage and fury and power and death and destruction and is carving down waves of Horde soldiers LOOK HOW DARK I AM. And started covering herself up in armor. Strong ̶F̶e̶male Character.™

But Meerah?

She drives her cart, and sings to Dolly & Dot. Because they like it when she sings to them. And when the big, strong troll dude complains that her bad singing makes him want to revert to Troll cannibalism, she's all "fine, whatever." And then sings to them under her breath, because that's her act of rebellion. Because she likes singing to Dolly & Dot. And they like it.

THAT is a strong female character, and also a fun one. Which is in direct contrast to the OTHER Vulpera you meet in the Horde Val'dun questline, who is the typical Strong Female Character™ in that she's a kickass, angry, super-capable warrior with lots of weapons who FIGHTS FIGHTS FIGHTS and kills lots of evil snakemen and can kill a thousand more and is like "GRRRR. I'M BADASS AND TOTALY SERIOUS." Wow, what a Strong Female Character™!

I can't even remember her name.



Adding tragedy and horrific loss to a female character doesn't make them "strong". Effortlessly taking down men triple your weight with ballet-like kung-fu or giant clashing weapons doesn't make a female character "strong". Showing the audience how many hundreds or thousands of enemy soldiers she's ordered killed doesn't make a female character "strong". That's what makes male characters strong. That's what guys like.

Removing femininity from female characters and replacing it with masculinity doesn't make them better or more relatable to female audiences.

Everyone loved Meerah. Guys AND girls loved Meerah. But would she be a better Strong Female Character™ if Dolly & Dot were both killed by Alliance Purge Squads while she watched, and through teary eyes swore vengeance and began systematically killing soldiers using giant-sized machetes while heavy metal music played in the background? No. Because that's what men think is cool. That's what gets men pumping their fist and yelling "Fark yeah!" at the screen. That's a Strong Male Character.

Making female characters more masculine and less fun isn't making them strong™, is all I'm saying.



ADDENDUM: It's not all bad. Props to Blizzard for not having Thalyssra fall into that trap.

Forced to go out into the world on her own because she bet everything on a choice which failed badly and is now separated from all her friends, she eventually found her own place which was a dirty hovel, but she spruced it up real nice and invited all her friends over even though she still spent her time going hungry, but she eventually made it lovely with a thriving garden with fruit trees and everything, and she now has amazing glowy outfits that show off her legs which she's damn proud of and now rules a whole fantasy kingdom and has a new Blood Elf BFF who shares her love of extravagance and can relate to rebuilding from bad life choices and failed career jumps.

At no point in Legion did Thalyssra grab an axe and charge in blind rage and slaughter hundreds of Suramar Felborne, drenching herself in their blood as she roared in rage over memories of all the children she cared in Shal'Aran being massacred. Didn't happen. She never shedded her femininity in voice, manner, appearance and action just because tragedy/anger/killing/masculinity makes women "strong".

Also props to Legion devs for Stellagosa and Valtrois. Going out and having awesome adventures with gabbing and bickering and fun and awesome outfits and actual strong female characters. No massacres or vengeance or horrifying tragic development... just two gals having zany adventures with magic and fun.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I still rather like Jaina, but then again I don't look at this in terms of Character Gender. I think you can have "strong female characters" that do destroy whole fleets with their magical flying ship, and I think you can have "strong male characters" that use the power of friendship and not a sword.

But I will scroll on down here and say we need more characters like the Nightfallen in Legion. Just in general. Those were some of Blizzard's better written characters because they had depth. They had quirks, they weren't all good or all evil, they had interpersonal relationships. All of which is missing from our WC3 Hero NPCs these days.

[PickleballAce]

Meerah for Warchief.

[Super Kami Dende]

Well written "Strong" Female Characters in the last 5 years -

1. Misty Knight - Netflix Marvel.

Badly written ones -

1. Everyone else.

[Bluespiderman57]

TL;DR: Meerah (and Dolly & Dot) is a stronger female character than Jaina, Sylvanas, Tyrande... and all the other "badass" female characters combined.






The problem with so many "Strong Female Characters™" these days is that they're strong male characters.

Y'know what men find "awesome" and "cool"? Fictional characters who get SUPER ANGRY and start kicking ass and fighting and destroying whole armies with awesome weapons and powers because this character tragically lost family and friends and all they held dear and it's so tragic and sad and (kneels in devastation) "NOOOOOooooooo~!") and their eyes go bloodshot and they start unleashing fury and rage and DIE DIE DIE [explosions everywhere] and...

You get the idea.







But Meerah?

She drives her cart, and sings to Dolly & Dot. Because they like it when she sings to them. And when the big, strong troll dude complains that her bad singing makes him want to revert to Troll cannibalism, she's all "fine, whatever." And then sings to them under her breath, because that's her act of rebellion. Because she likes singing to Dolly & Dot. And they like it.

THAT is a strong female character, and also a fun one. Which is in direct contrast to the OTHER Vulpera you meet in the Horde Val'dun questline, who is the typical Strong Female Character™ in that she's a kickass, angry, super-capable warrior with lots of weapons who FIGHTS FIGHTS FIGHTS and kills lots of evil snakemen and can kill a thousand more and is like "GRRRR. I'M BADASS AND TOTALY SERIOUS." Wow, what a Strong Female Character™!

I can't even remember her name.



Adding tragedy and horrific loss to a female character doesn't make them "strong". Effortlessly taking down men triple your weight with ballet-like kung-fu or giant clashing weapons doesn't make a female character "strong". Showing the audience how many hundreds or thousands of enemy soldiers she's ordered killed doesn't make a female character "strong". That's what makes male characters strong. That's what guys like.

Removing femininity from female characters and replacing it with masculinity doesn't make them better or more relatable to female audiences.

Everyone loved Meerah. Guys AND girls loved Meerah. But would she be a better Strong Female Character™ if Dolly & Dot were both killed by Alliance Purge Squads while she watched, and through teary eyes swore vengeance and began systematically killing soldiers using giant-sized machetes while heavy metal music played in the background? No. Because that's what men think is cool. That's what gets men pumping their fist and yelling "Fark yeah!" at the screen. That's a Strong Male Character.

Making female characters more masculine and less fun isn't making them strong™, is all I'm saying.



ADDENDUM: It's not all bad. Props to Blizzard for not having Thalyssra fall into that trap.



At no point in Legion did Thalyssra grab an axe and charge in blind rage and slaughter hundreds of Suramar Felborne, drenching herself in their blood as she roared in rage over memories of all the children she cared in Shal'Aran being massacred. Didn't happen. She never shedded her femininity in voice, manner, appearance and action just because tragedy/anger/killing/masculinity makes women "strong".

Also props to Legion devs for Stellagosa and Valtrois. Going out and having awesome adventures with gabbing and bickering and fun and awesome outfits and actual strong female characters. No massacres or vengeance or horrifying t[I][I]ragic development... just two gals having zany adventures with magic and fun.

Oh, boy. I have a feeling that this thread will get some "spirited" discussion. Can't wait.

On topic. I do agree with you on a lot of this. I actually am enjoying Jaine's character right now, but yes I see where you are coming from. I just think that your argument may come off as a bit too black and white for some people though. We shall see I guess.

[Pragmaticism]

I thought the whole point was that women aren't always one way or the other?

Female characters that are destructive doesn't make them less female as you're trying to say, they're just females with different personality types. I do get what you're saying though, and there is a sore lack of strong women that don't automatically run to the sword whenever there's a problem. Hack'n'slash type of female characters tend to be more common because of the nature of the type of story they're in though (specifically for WoW, a war themed story). The damsel in distress is a fairly common writer trope that I think these females are probably in opposition to.

I think if Blizz wrote a fairly competent nonviolent female leader she'd run into the same problems that Anduin encounters and I don't think Anduin has many fans that look passed his dazzling good looks.

Also if they did that I think people would complain about Blizz having a sociopolitical agenda.

As a side note, I think Sylvanas is technically supposed to be a villain.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, boy. I have a feeling that this thread will get some "spirited" discussion. Can't wait.

On topic. I do agree with you on a lot of this. I actually am enjoying Jaine's character right now, but yes I see where you are coming from. I just think that your argument may come off as a bit too black and white for some people though. We shall see I guess.

I was actually thinking that people would end up taking the argument more seriously if the examples of the characters weren't so highly exaggerated, but I wasn't going to say anything until you pointed it out.

[Torto]

Well argued OP, I agree completely. I enjoyed Thalyssra in Legion because she was not only a competent leader and believable character, she also never lost her femininity and never went bat shit crazy no matter the injustices. Pity about her joining the horde but that's just bad writing coupled with required gameplay elements.

In modern day entertainment, creators have confused equality with masculinity. You don't need to make female characters more masculine to make them popular with the male audience.

[Zandalariprelate]

Oh boy, can't wait for the salt storm this thread will make

[Nalorakk]

Strength =/= conforming to gender roles/expectations.

I think the three 'strong' characters you listed aren't strong for a number of reasons, but none of those are that they don't do enough arts and crafts.

I do agree that Meerah is a strong character, but in the context of Warcraft she doesn't appear so. If you look at Meerah's existence, having the sunny outlook she does and always continuing on is really impressive.

[Byleth]

Women can be anything they like, be that fun loving and zany, or rage fueled and driven by vengeance.

Any kind of woman is a normal character, and all have the potential to be great.

I don't hear anyone complaining about fun, zany, gabbing, meek and mild male characters... By your logic, these can't be great characters.

[Wondercrab]

It's easier to just break it up into well written and poorly written characters, but yeah, the "strong female character" archetype is often attached to female characters who just exhibit a lot of traditionally masculine traits, because that's what a lot of popular media has codified as cool and badass over the last howevermany years.

Perhaps it's an argument of semantics, but if you're going to qualify a character by their gender then you probably want to focus on the struggles they face that are more traditionally unique to their gender. I've been reading Ken Follett's Kingsbridge saga lately and that's a great of example of a series full of female characters dealing with problems that are largely unique to their gender given the setting in medieval England. These characters are strong because they have to deal with things like being treated as property by their husbands/fathers, pregnancy and raising children in a world without contraception or modern medicine, having their social advancement tied to marrying men of good standing, being denied various career options, and so on. The way Follett's characters cope with the problems that are unique to them as women is what makes them strong female characters and not just generic "strong" characters.

It's admittedly harder to do that in a setting like WoW, though, since a lot of gender-based drama in fiction can get pretty serious and grim when you really dig into it, and WoW's way too goofy to properly tackle that kind of subject matter. That being said you can do a ton of stuff with fantasy gender roles to differentiate them from their real-world equivalents, but you kind of need to build your setting around that from the ground up. For a developer like Blizzard I feel like it's probably safer for them to just stick to writing generically strong characters, but I don't think they really deserve any unique praise for the way they write women.

[George Costanza]

I think the best example of a Strong female character is the non fighting leader of the order of embers.

not the fat captain.

that is the only one there is the rest are just stupid.

[Pragmaticism]

It's easier to just break it up into well written and poorly written characters, but yeah, the "strong female character" archetype is often attached to female characters who just exhibit a lot of traditionally masculine traits, because that's what a lot of popular media has codified as cool and badass over the last howevermany years.

Perhaps it's an argument of semantics, but if you're going to qualify a character by their gender then you probably want to focus on the struggles they face that are more traditionally unique to their gender. I've been reading Ken Follett's Kingsbridge saga lately and that's a great of example of a series full of female characters dealing with problems that are largely unique to their gender given the setting in medieval England. These characters are strong because they have to deal with things like being treated as property by their husbands/fathers, pregnancy and raising children in a world without contraception or modern medicine, having their social advancement tied to marrying men of good standing, being denied various career options, and so on. The way Follett's characters cope with the problems that are unique to them as women is what makes them strong female characters and not just generic "strong" characters.

It's admittedly harder to do that in a setting like WoW, though, since a lot of gender-based drama in fiction can get pretty serious and grim when you really dig into it, and WoW's way too goofy to properly tackle that kind of subject matter. That being said you can do a ton of stuff with fantasy gender roles to differentiate them from their real-world equivalents, but you kind of need to build your setting around that from the ground up. For a developer like Blizzard I feel like it's probably safer for them to just stick to writing generically strong characters, but I don't think they really deserve any unique praise for the way they write women.

Violence and aggression, traits exhibited by all 3 characters noted in the OP after their decline, aren't inherently masculine traits, though.

[Byleth]

Well written "Strong" Female Characters in the last 5 years -

1. Misty Knight - Netflix Marvel.

I actually agree with this, Misty is fantastic. In general the Netflix Marvel series do a really good job with there female cast.

[Super Kami Dende]

I actually agree with this, Misty is fantastic. In general the Netflix Marvel series do a really good job with there female cast.

Misty was 2nd only to Frank Castle as my Favourite of those Series. I would love for there to be a legit Misty knight Detective Show. The Actress and the writing behind her was brilliant and at no point felt forced into weird things because she was 1. a Woman or 2. Black. She was written in the exact way she should have been. A badass awesome Detective that happened to be a Woman. That and she was a babe.

[Blightrose]

So strong female characters mutter very slightly annoying words ?
Oh what a show of power!!!

Is it also a strong female character who makes dinner in the garden using the grill instead of the stove in the kitchen?
(because that is apparently where OP expects to find women, cooking, singing and dancing as well)


H.O.L.Y crap.

[Orby]

that's nice dear....

[ro9ue]

Yeah I agree. I think it just shows a lack of creativity when people just make a standard male hero and put boobs on it. Thalyssra and Valtrois are definitely great examples of solid female figures. Two excellent characters.

[sibut]

So female characters should always bow to their male superiors while doing acts of rebellion like singing under their breath? I'm guessing you're single and you live in your mom's basement if you expect all females to spend their lives in the kitchen baking you a sammich.

[diarx]

Did you just assume Dolly and Dot's gender?