#MorallyGrey

[mickybrighteyes]

... and for betraying them, and murdering an Alliance leader... but lets ignore that one :P

Some people might not be aware of the retcons.

Garithos' party was killed to the main with no survivors so there was no way to know WHO was responsible for his and his people's deaths. All that would be known was he was an extremely bigoted asshole who went into lordaeron's fallen kingdom and perished.

Later on sometime we had a few books come out with NEW CHARACTERS said to be part of the company under Garithos who somehow managed to survive the whole demon possession events and managed to flee Lordaeron after Sylvanas and the forsaken butchered everyone (previously slaughtered every single being). I think chronicles also did a bit about some folks getting away as well but, again, most people can't be arsed to read the books.

So some people are still under the impression that the original story of forsaken might still be the only series of events (originally much of the forsaken waking up and trying to find their loved ones to be attacked for being undead)

[Super Dickmann]

Remember in Vanilla you had to hunt down a group of Forsaken who stole her blood gems and kill them for cohorting with the Alliance? It was very reminiscent to me of her killing her own people in Before the Storm. Sylvanas is only loyal to you if you are loyal to her.

Killing people for committing treason is standard. Both in stealing things and trafficking them to your enemies, as the guys in Vanilla did, or the ones in Arathi of which at least 6 out of 12 were in the process of defecting, 11 out of 12 if we believe Calia. Sylvanas doesn't mind people departing if they don't join hostile organisations, see letting Lilian go despite her being anti all undead at the start, letting that guy from the traveler books go despite him being a high ranking operative or even the apothecary in the Argent Crusade who thought she'd lost her way.

Hell, in Wrath the Forsaken kill prisoners of the Scarlet Onslaught who got captured. They do this because they're captured, despite them otherwise being loyal citizens rather than traitors or defectors. This is in fact crueler than what Sylvanas herself does, who orders you to save the fleeing fearful Forsaken in Silverpine and you have to be told to keep quiet when Godfrey shoots some of them because he doesn't want her learning and being pissed at him. In the same zone Sylvanas has you collect Forsaken dogtags so they can be properly honored.

The Forsaken have used mindless undead for ages and their society indeed originated on mind control. The free will that they respect is for Forsaken who join their society, not for any undead raised for any reason. After all they create abominations and Sylvanas makes skellies all the time. They only take issue when someone raised to be part of the Forsaken and thus meant to have free will is deprived of it after he's chosen to join them. Hence the issue with Stillwater who was zombifying other Forsaken.

In all this though it has to be stressed that no matter which zone you go to, Forsaken behaviour is Forsaken behaviour. It's not Sylvanas responsible for everything and those poor innocent babies being victims who just want hugs (that they'll fall apart from), it's the Forsaken's values and approach in general.

[Jastall]

Fair points to bring up but I am really not sure its a shift in character. She's shown examples of this behavior before.

Remember in Vanilla you had to hunt down a group of Forsaken who stole her blood gems and kill them for cohorting with the Alliance? It was very reminiscent to me of her killing her own people in Before the Storm. Sylvanas is only loyal to you if you are loyal to her.

You'll have to give me example of her respecting the Horde's fallen. I know you are referring to the Battle for Lordaeron as the switch but I don't remember her explicitly stating she was against raising Horde soldiers. Before BfA she didn't even have to power to do so even if she wanted.

I fully disagree with Sylvanas respecting free will. This has never been a characteristic of hers. She essentially only gained her freedom from the Scourge by mind-controlling various creature to do her bidding. You literally murder Mug'thol in vanilla for gaining his free will back from her and genocide the Crushridge ogres to make an example of them. Then there's Koltira in Cataclysm. Where again Sylvanas punishes someone for undermining her by cohorting with the Alliance. While we don't know if Sylvanas tried to specifically mind-controlled Koltira it is implied she tortured him at least to try and make him loyal. Respecting free-will is absolutely not one of her core characteristics. While she doesn't want to literally control her subjects like the Lich King, she absolutely expects 100% obedience and loyalty and will punish anyone who disobeys her.

I think the core issue is that respecting free will was seen as the one virtue that, perhaps not Sylvanas herself, but at least the Forsaken had. They went through being mind-controlled, they know what it is and refused to use that particular Scourge tactic even when it would perhaps be more expedient. It may have been an aspect that was exaggerated a bit in order to find a "good" side to a race that has shown few over the years, but the impression still remained that free will was on the whole a value to them even if they could be hypocrites about it.

Now that this is trashed, what are we left with? A race of cartoonish villains with no virtues or decent sides whatsoever, forever damned to have their fate and story shackled to Sylvanas and/or her nearly identical lapdog because 95% of them are her slavish cultists? Some people might prefer that, I find that it makes them one-note and supremely boring. So perhaps that's why some people are bummed that this plotline happens (alongside the simple fact that the plotline is shit).

[Verdugo]

I think the core issue is that respecting free will was seen as the one virtue that, perhaps not Sylvanas herself, but at least the Forsaken had. They went through being mind-controlled, they know what it is and refused to use that particular Scourge tactic even when it would perhaps be more expedient. It may have been an aspect that was exaggerated a bit in order to find a "good" side to a race that has shown few over the years, but the impression still remained that free will was on the whole a value to them even if they could be hypocrites about it.

Now that this is trashed, what are we left with? A race of cartoonish villains with no virtues or decent sides whatsoever, forever damned to have their fate and story shackled to Sylvanas and/or her nearly identical lapdog because 95% of them are her slavish cultists? Some people might prefer that, I find that it makes them one-note and supremely boring. So perhaps that's why some people are bummed that this plotline happens (alongside the simple fact that the plotline is shit).

Still more interesting than one-note Alliance that is quickly reaching the Anduin singularity.

[Jastall]

Still more interesting than one-note Alliance that is quickly reaching the Anduin singularity.

There really is no defense for the Forsaken or Sylvanas if "but what about Anduin" is the only argument at play here.

[Super Dickmann]

I think the core issue is that respecting free will was seen as the one virtue that, perhaps not Sylvanas herself, but at least the Forsaken had. They went through being mind-controlled, they know what it is and refused to use that particular Scourge tactic even when it would perhaps be more expedient. It may have been an aspect that was exaggerated a bit in order to find a "good" side to a race that has shown few over the years, but the impression still remained that free will was on the whole a value to them even if they could be hypocrites about it.

Now that this is trashed, what are we left with? A race of cartoonish villains with no virtues or decent sides whatsoever, forever damned to have their fate and story shackled to Sylvanas and/or her nearly identical lapdog because 95% of them are her slavish cultists? Some people might prefer that, I find that it makes them one-note and supremely boring. So perhaps that's why some people are bummed that this plotline happens (alongside the simple fact that the plotline is shit).

That's only if one accepts the frame Blizzard presents in this particular instance while ignoring every other story they've done, including ones told in this very expansion. Amalia, Zelling and even the Night Elves, though more in concept than in any execution all explore the same shit the Tirisfal questlines did regarding the newly risen coming to grips with what their lots in life have to be. Ditto Lilian deciding that she's going to help with such a transition the way the Forsaken helped her. But this suffers not because of what the Forsaken were before, after all this was exactly the kind of story told in Cataclysm, but in Blizzard's attempt to wipe away the unique aspects of the Forsaken and default them to sadsacks who just want hugs and were tricked by Sylvanas. Recontextualizing your lot in life only works if you actually can't just go back to what you were doing before but with a minor cosmetic alteration and now we know you can easily do this. If it weren't for Sylvanas, the Forsaken would be living in peace, accepted by their loved ones through the grace of a certain someone.

The Forsaken aren't very pleasant, but anyone who says they didn't advance as characters or that their story in Cataclysm was entirely one note is simply wrong. Reclaiming their identity as the people of Lordaeron who wished to continue existing and didn't have to be miserable all the time also coinciding with their new drive towards conquest and that having a positive self-image also meant that you'd clash a lot more with the world that most definitely doesn't agree that being undead is a good thing is a more nuanced take on it than what we were delivered now. From their changing attitudes towards undeath, what that entailed about free will and what made them different than the Scourge, their clashes with the Horde's mistrust and how it's responded to by both the new wave of Garrosh-style orcs and the Thrall-style ones, as well as the way that their idea of still being the people of Lordaeron and having claim to all its lands obviously crashing against the people who disagree are all things explored in Cataclysm's questing.

[Khaza-R]

I think the core issue is that respecting free will was seen as the one virtue that, perhaps not Sylvanas herself, but at least the Forsaken had. They went through being mind-controlled, they know what it is and refused to use that particular Scourge tactic even when it would perhaps be more expedient. It may have been an aspect that was exaggerated a bit in order to find a "good" side to a race that has shown few over the years, but the impression still remained that free will was on the whole a value to them even if they could be hypocrites about it.

Now that this is trashed, what are we left with? A race of cartoonish villains with no virtues or decent sides whatsoever, forever damned to have their fate and story shackled to Sylvanas and/or her nearly identical lapdog because 95% of them are her slavish cultists? Some people might prefer that, I find that it makes them one-note and supremely boring. So perhaps that's why some people are bummed that this plotline happens (alongside the simple fact that the plotline is shit).

Understandable but I don't think its necessarily that case that they are solely just cartoon villains. We've seen very little in terms of the Forsaken's reaction to Delaryn or Derek Proudmoore. The only two examples we are given are Nathanos who is nothing but a lapdog and Thomas Zelling who remains honorable.I think his dichotomy is meant to mirror that of the Orcs in MoP.

[Whitedragon]

Some people might not be aware of the retcons.

Garithos' party was killed to the main with no survivors so there was no way to know WHO was responsible for his and his people's deaths. All that would be known was he was an extremely bigoted asshole who went into lordaeron's fallen kingdom and perished.

Later on sometime we had a few books come out with NEW CHARACTERS said to be part of the company under Garithos who somehow managed to survive the whole demon possession events and managed to flee Lordaeron after Sylvanas and the forsaken butchered everyone (previously slaughtered every single being). I think chronicles also did a bit about some folks getting away as well but, again, most people can't be arsed to read the books.

So some people are still under the impression that the original story of forsaken might still be the only series of events (originally much of the forsaken waking up and trying to find their loved ones to be attacked for being undead)

Honestly I never bought the whole nobody found out what happened thing, considering Alliance forces still held a good chunk of land (Dal, SS, Ect) in Norther EK, Some of them had to have been remnants of Garithos time garrisoned in the area, and some of them had to at the very least guessed what happened to the Capitol retaking force, considering Syl miraculously wins the battle and the Alliance force suffers total destruction, this especially so considering the two fronts where spouse to be allied up to that point, and then all of a sudden out of nowhere one side starts attacking the other for no reason...

[Jastall]

That's only if one accepts the frame Blizzard presents in this particular instance while ignoring every other story they've done, including ones told in this very expansion. Amalia, Zelling and even the Night Elves, though more in concept than in any execution all explore the same shit the Tirisfal questlines did regarding the newly risen coming to grips with what their lots in life have to be. Ditto Lilian deciding that she's going to help with such a transition the way the Forsaken helped her. But this suffers not because of what the Forsaken were before, after all this was exactly the kind of story told in Cataclysm, but in Blizzard's attempt to wipe away the unique aspects of the Forsaken and default them to sadsacks who just want hugs and were tricked by Sylvanas. Recontextualizing your lot in life only works if you actually can't just go back to what you were doing before but with a minor cosmetic alteration and now we know you can easily do this. If it weren't for Sylvanas, the Forsaken would be living in peace, accepted by their loved ones through the grace of a certain someone.

The Forsaken aren't very pleasant, but anyone who says they didn't advance as characters or that their story in Cataclysm was entirely one note is simply wrong. Reclaiming their identity as the people of Lordaeron who wished to continue existing and didn't have to be miserable all the time also coinciding with their new drive towards conquest and that having a positive self-image also meant that you'd clash a lot more with the world that most definitely doesn't agree that being undead is a good thing is a more nuanced take on it than what we were delivered now. From their changing attitudes towards undeath, what that entailed about free will and what made them different than the Scourge, their clashes with the Horde's mistrust and how it's responded to by both the new wave of Garrosh-style orcs and the Thrall-style ones, as well as the way that their idea of still being the people of Lordaeron and having claim to all its lands obviously crashing against the people who disagree are all things explored in Cataclysm's questing.

Problem is all of those you mentioned were shooed out. Zelling, the most interesting of the lot, was killed unceremoniously. Amalia has vanished from the story and while not a cultist, was still a fanatical Kul Tiran who turned on her homeland in record time because muh sadness. Voss was hit with a heavy-handed retcon bat to get where she is and has also vanished since release. The Night Elves were not only shockingly poorly executed, but I see no way they can have story relevance when the plot is moving away from Darkshore and the heavy Forsaken focus of 8.0/8.1 to move on to purpler pastures, to say nothing of the fact that by design Warfronts are locked in time. So yeah, for now they do seem one-note in terms of important characters, who are 1) Sylvanas, and 2) Sylvanas with no tits.

I also dislike the concept of Forsaken being fundamentally compatible with human society as if nothing happened, but that's not what even BTS was going for, some Forsaken were rejected by their families at the Gathering and most humans didn't even want to see them. That argument seems like a fancier take on what Verdugo says; the notion that it's either Sylvanas's view of the zombies or Anduin's that must reign. Maybe the writers feel that way, I dunno, but I think the Forsaken have the most potential for interesting stories of any race and it's been wasted on making them either mustache twirling assholes or complete sadsacks with the self-determination of a rotten potato.

[Powerogue]

Reading through the responses I feel like I have to concede that she probably never cared much about the forsaken or those values, at least to any degree we were lead to believe.

Even re-reading things like the Edge of Night short story https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...ndrunner#tab=7 which tends to be the go-to "see, she cares!" example...

"The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living."

She's not particularly caring about their well being, just that they should be used wisely. As her tools.

The Forsaken have maintained a fanatical near-worship of her for the act of freeing them, but did she free them out of the goodness of her heart? No. She freed them to have forces she could use to destroy the Lich King.

[Jastall]

Understandable but I don't think its necessarily that case that they are solely just cartoon villains. We've seen very little in terms of the Forsaken's reaction to Delaryn or Derek Proudmoore. The only two examples we are given are Nathanos who is nothing but a lapdog and Thomas Zelling who remains honorable.I think his dichotomy is meant to mirror that of the Orcs in MoP.

To be fair it seems the reaction of a decent chunk of Forsaken to Derek is mitigated; the crew of the ship the Horde PC and Baine invade to get Derek surrender rather than fight, and their dialog indicates they disagree with the going-ons, or at least aren't ready to die for such a cause. That's something already; the ones who fight to the death are the Dark Rangers and officers. So it may be that those who are more powerful or privileged care less about such principles, or are too fanatical to disobey. That's an aspect that would be cool to explore, but unfortunately the one character that could be used to do that got killed right after.

[mickybrighteyes]

Honestly I never bought the whole nobody found out what happened thing, considering Alliance forces still held a good chunk of land (Dal, SS, Ect) in Norther EK, Some of them had to have been remnants of Garithos time garrisoned in the area, and some of them had to at the very least guessed what happened to the Capitol retaking force, considering Syl miraculously wins the battle and the Alliance force suffers total destruction, this especially so considering the two fronts where spouse to be allied up to that point, and then all of a sudden out of nowhere one side starts attacking the other for no reason...

the thing is that literally no one knew of the forsaken as a stand alone force at the time. Sylvanas was a dead archer from Quel'thalas. and the region was BARELY held after teh shit show that had been going on with Kael and Co.

It is an actually rather reasonable outcome given the utter lack of infrastructure once you get into Tirisfal and teh plaguelands. The very land at that point was enough to start poisoning people just for sticking around too long and that's to say nothing of the mindless scourge still present.

Overall, at that point in the story's life cycle (pre-cycle of hatred i think?) it would have been more than reasonable for any prior alliance of lordaeron peeps to assume Garithos fell to a mixture of his own incompetence and scourge as the presence of teh forsaken wasn't really common knowledge yet. The first group that would have been able to share that info was the forsaken ambassadors that were sent out after Lordaeron was secured... but that whole bit wgot retconned away.

- - - Updated - - -

I would assume the Scarlets would know and the Scarlets had an emissary in Stormwind all the way back in vanilla.

There were multiple emissaries, but their communications lines were also shown to be incredibly unreliable. Like meeting up with some who had information that was incredibly outdated. As for the one inside Stormwind... I don't think there was any real chat options for him.

Now if you follow the recruitment quest and head off toward the Monastery you find that the scarlets are really messed up and that's the alliance hook to go into that dungeon.

[Super Dickmann]

Problem is all of those you mentioned were shooed out. Zelling, the most interesting of the lot, was killed unceremoniously. Amalia has vanished from the story and while not a cultist, was still a fanatical Kul Tiran who turned on her homeland in record time because muh sadness. Voss was hit with a heavy-handed retcon bat to get where she is and has also vanished since release. The Night Elves were not only shockingly poorly executed, but I see no way they can have story relevance when the plot is moving away from Darkshore and the heavy Forsaken focus of 8.0/8.1 to move on to purpler pastures, to say nothing of the fact that by design Warfronts are locked in time. So yeah, for now they do seem one-note in terms of important characters, who are 1) Sylvanas, and 2) Sylvanas with no tits.

The point is that the writers chose to waste those stories and pretend they're incompatible with what the Forsaken have been before. When this is not the case. The very first thing you do in the Forsaken questing experience is help Forsaken, Lilian included, attempt to acclimatize to their new life. One amenable to an explanation, one refusing and going rogue and one needing a lot more work, that being Lilian. Then you get the other ways things backfire when the Forsaken join, but don't align with what's expected of them with Godfrey, who's contemptuous of his own side and lacks the internal solidarity you see constantly across the leveling zones. Zelling is another spin entirely in that he chooses to be Forsaken and struggles with that requires of him, facing the rejection that forces him to stick with the choice but still endeavour to do good. He's actually a good and consistent character, but one wholly coherent with the Forsaken as they were prior to the attempts to turn Sylvanas into Satan and everyone else into a sadsack. Amalia likewise has to go through acclimatizing, with quests worth of it and her still struggling at the end.

The capacity to tell these stories was already there and only existed after the Cata mindset changes, but its core conceit is killed by BTS. Sylvanas is a very important aspect of the Forsaken, but she's not the whole of it. Of the zones in Cata, Sylvanas is in only one, and while referenced often, she's a reference to a value system that goes beyond the cult of personality. Sylvanas developed this new positive self-image alongside them and relied on it because it was an association they already identified with. Ditto honoring the dead or banning lobotomizing other actual Forsaken or so on. Sylvanas, before BTS, was in the spot she was in not because she brainwashed a bunch of desperate sheep into following her, but because she represented their values. This is even the big turning point for her in Edge of Night. She herself didn't give a shit about all this 'death to the living' crap, she just wanted to kill Arthas, but her people existed independently of her purpose for them and genuinely believed this shit. The only way she could survive was contingent on her helping them to exist long-term. They were the ones to give her significance, not vice versa. The dichotomy you're presenting is actually the one we're being sold now - the Forsaken themselves are just drones, everything they are was induced by Sylvanas and if we get rid of her, everything they are will be induced by Calia instead and since she's good and not evil, that'll be fine. But this was never the case prior. It infantilizes the Forsaken as perpetual victims.

[Zandalariprelate]

Quetz'lun ALSO uses Necromancy.

Yep we found another coincidence that blizzard will use in the future and saying it was planned since the beginning

[mickybrighteyes]

To be fair it seems the reaction of a decent chunk of Forsaken to Derek is mitigated; the crew of the ship the Horde PC and Baine invade to get Derek surrender rather than fight, and their dialog indicates they disagree with the going-ons, or at least aren't ready to die for such a cause. That's something already; the ones who fight to the death are the Dark Rangers and officers. So it may be that those who are more powerful or privileged care less about such principles, or are too fanatical to disobey. That's an aspect that would be cool to explore, but unfortunately the one character that could be used to do that got killed right after.

At this point I sincerely doubt they'll really look at it much.

Attacking and killing your allies is somehow both honorable (see: Baine) and dishonorable (see: Sylvanas) or just outright ignored after you get a necklace (see: Jaina). Honoring your word isn't honorable or sticking to an oath no longer seems to factor in. And abandoning your post on threat of death is to be viewed as dissent among the ranks? It just feels like whoever is writing this really isn't paying attention and some last minute changes are just getting shoved in or something.

[Jastall]

The point is that the writers chose to waste those stories and pretend they're incompatible with what the Forsaken have been before. When this is not the case. The very first thing you do in the Forsaken questing experience is help Forsaken, Lilian included, attempt to acclimatize to their new life. One amenable to an explanation, one refusing and going rogue and one needing a lot more work, that being Lilian. Then you get the other ways things backfire when the Forsaken join, but don't align with what's expected of them with Godfrey, who's contemptuous of his own side and lacks the internal solidarity you see constantly across the leveling zones. Zelling is another spin entirely in that he chooses to be Forsaken and struggles with that requires of him, facing the rejection that forces him to stick with the choice but still endeavour to do good. He's actually a good and consistent character, but one wholly coherent with the Forsaken as they were prior to the attempts to turn Sylvanas into Satan and everyone else into a sadsack. Amalia likewise has to go through acclimatizing, with quests worth of it and her still struggling at the end.

The capacity to tell these stories was already there and only existed after the Cata mindset changes, but its core conceit is killed by BTS. Sylvanas is a very important aspect of the Forsaken, but she's not the whole of it. Of the zones in Cata, Sylvanas is in only one, and while referenced often, she's a reference to a value system that goes beyond the cult of personality. Sylvanas developed this new positive self-image alongside them and relied on it because it was an association they already identified with. Ditto honoring the dead or banning lobotomizing other actual Forsaken or so on. Sylvanas, before BTS, was in the spot she was in not because she brainwashed a bunch of desperate sheep into following her, but because she represented their values. This is even the big turning point for her in Edge of Night. She herself didn't give a shit about all this 'death to the living' crap, she just wanted to kill Arthas, but her people existed independently of her purpose for them and genuinely believed this shit. The only way she could survive was contingent on her helping them to exist long-term. They were the ones to give her significance, not vice versa. The dichotomy you're presenting is actually the one we're being sold now - the Forsaken themselves are just drones, everything they are was induced by Sylvanas and if we get rid of her, everything they are will be induced by Calia instead and since she's good and not evil, that'll be fine. But this was never the case prior. It infantilizes the Forsaken as perpetual victims.

I can only work with what we're being sold, man. As much as I'd like for things to take another turn, for Sylvanas to actually get some development this expansion that isn't "turn her into a villain because", for Nathanos to actually have a story relevance beyond doing and saying things Sylvanas would do or say if she could be here, for Zelling to have his side of the story explored in more depth, for the Night Elves raised in Darkshore to have been done properly, well that shit didn't happen.

I already said I don't like the version where the Forsaken are merely victims, that's my entire point, I like no version of the Forsaken that we're presented right now. And I sure wouldn't like it if they just became Caliaforged into vomit-inducing redemption, although I doubt that's the direction their story will take.

I just think Blizzard can do better. I replayed SC2's campaign recently for kicks, and Alarak is ten times the character Sylvanas is, and while Legacy has writing problems of their own they successfully presented the Tal'darim as a merciless society that nevertheless was able to stop being a bunch of omnicidal jackasses for no reason and retained the vast majority of their edge even after temporarily joining a larger faction. Surely it wouldn't be too hard to have the Forsaken follow a similar course.

[FelPlague]

-snip-

Never was it said Sylvanas is a morally grey charecter.
but that azeroth is a land of morally grey choices and that morality is subjective

[Super Dickmann]

I just think Blizzard can do better. I replayed SC2's campaign recently for kicks, and Alarak is ten times the character Sylvanas is, and while Legacy has writing problems of their own they successfully presented the Tal'darim as a merciless society that nevertheless was able to stop being a bunch of omnicidal jackasses for no reason and retained the vast majority of their edge even after temporarily joining a larger faction. Surely it wouldn't be too hard to have the Forsaken follow a similar course.

While I have huge issues with SC2, with that new version of the SC1 in SC2 fan remake coming out I've been thinking about it more along the same lines. Valerian is a better Anduin than Anduin is and Alarak was a much more fun token evil teammate than Sylvanas has been in this one. But what I'm getting at with my spiel is that the Forsaken weren't broken and didn't need fixing. The Forsaken are effectively victims of the whitewashing of literally everyone else, especially those they're most connected to, like Genn or Stormwind. Blizzard just needed to focus on the positives of their portrayal if they were going to have them be such a prominent part - more on the experience of what it is to be undead and acclimatizing to that kind of existence and not neuter their foes. The Forsaken simply don't work if their entire premise, down to their name, is false.

Come to think of it, what would've been a better way to do this, albeit still unnecessary, would have been Sylvanas attempting to implement the BTS changes to their society rather than them being retconned in, and have her go hyper-paternalistic and obsessive as she is characterized now. Except then have the Forsaken themselves be at the forefront of self-correction rather than implying they need an intravenous dosage of muh honor or human potential to change into something acceptable, i.e completely different. I don't agree that what happened with Derek was some kind of great atrocity, but if we were to take it at face value, Baine should not be the one who gives more of a shit about supposed Forsaken values than actual Forsaken, notwithstanding a guy who only joined five minutes ago.

[mickybrighteyes]

but if we were to take it at face value, Baine should not be the one who gives more of a shit about supposed Forsaken values than actual Forsaken, notwithstanding a guy who only joined five minutes ago.

Yeah... it's like they just looked at horde leadership and said "who's the least evil right now?" and rolled with the event. Minor characters from recent plotlines don't exist apparently and any major story arch MUST include the leadership to grab our attention. No more Kyrin's or Shokia's or Taylor's so we focus purely on the leadership.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah... it's like they just looked at horde leadership and said "who's the least evil right now?" and rolled with the event. Minor characters from recent plotlines don't exist apparently and any major story arch MUST include the leadership to grab our attention. No more Kyrin's or Shokia's or Taylor's so we focus purely on the leadership.

Blizzard have this 'oh shiny' mentality where established minor characters are ditched for the new hotness. Faranell and Belmont are established supporting characters that only appear in a few zones, but they're well-liked by Forsaken players in my experience. They're forced however to play second-fiddle to raised night elves in Darkshore. I can't decide if that's better or worse than the entire orcish extended cast appearing only to be slaughtered in Mists.