Is WoW's skinner box design outdated?

[Granyala]

Whole WoW is wasting time except few who professionally plays it for money. So the question is: how to waste that time getting more fun. And for me learning things myself or with my friends is more fun than repeating someone's instructions.

I know what you mean, I am pretty much the same, except that I do not have enough time to raid 5x a week in order to clear content AND learn with... well people that are equipped with more "normal" levels of skill. You know, the ones that are actually challenged when asked to FOLLOW already laid out instructions? I raided for 8.5 years and trust me, most kills did not come easy to us even with damn good raid leads and guides.


If you try to combine "want to learn myself" with normal skilled gameplay, you'll be hard pressed to find like minded individuals, because the effort of learning stands in no relations to the reward of killing stuff.

Only two solutions:
1) Get into a top guild and be one of the few who actually derives strategies. Though I am pretty sure that even these people read up on bosses abilities to formulate possible counter tactics. Standing there getting hit, trying to figure out how a given mechanic works... I don't know if anybody really does that anymore. Not when Blizzard gives you a friggin blue print ingame.

2) be extremely lucky to find a stable mom&pop guild that does stuff this way and accept that you are most likely never clear the content while it is current.

[Deleted]

They understand it just fine. That's why mechanics like bad luck protection and RPPM are in the game, to constrain RNG extremes.

There is no randomness in WoWs “RNG”. Activision patented manipulated “RNG” years ago.

[Schizoide]

There is no randomness in WoWs “RNG”. Activision patented manipulated “RNG” years ago.

Can you explain what you mean, please? Are you just talking about bad luck protection or RPPM?

[vsb]

If you try to combine "want to learn myself" with normal skilled gameplay, you'll be hard pressed to find like minded individuals, because the effort of learning stands in no relations to the reward of killing stuff.

Only two solutions:
1) Get into a top guild and be one of the few who actually derives strategies. Though I am pretty sure that even these people read up on bosses abilities to formulate possible counter tactics. Standing there getting hit, trying to figure out how a given mechanic works... I don't know if anybody really does that anymore. Not when Blizzard gives you a friggin blue print ingame.

2) be extremely lucky to find a stable mom&pop guild that does stuff this way and accept that you are most likely never clear the content while it is current.

Yep, that's because I wrote that it's nearly impossible. I don't even know if I could myself resist the temptation to lookup the tactics because it's so easy. I miss old days of myths and discussions how Onyxia breathes and how Patchwerk's hateful strike really works.

[Irian]

Why?

I do not see any good reason to limit players in working for their progress.

I would love to be able to get all reputation needed within two weeks after expac release with playing a lot on holidays. I would love to able to play on my own pace, and not being limited by a time gating mechanism.

The only time gate i would accept is for an ongoing narrative, where the story is told in a quest flow of, lets say, 100 story quests per week. That would be like the weekly episode of a series you get on nowadays streaming services.

Because playing at your own pace for a huge portion of the playerbase involves consuming the entire span of content as soon as possible.
Having weekly caps for gear benefits the playerbase because it doesn't allow people to steamroll ahead and create a massive gap between those who obsessively play the game and those who have a limited time. It keeps the gear level of players closer together and also helps prevent obsessive players from burning through available content and then saying there's nothing to do.

I don't get why some players see the idea of gating as a bad thing considering it works out so well and naturally with the badge system. Players can't control themselves and people will consume content too fast and grind towards the path of least resistance if given the opportunity, see Legion as proof of that.

[huth]

Because gating does not allow you to set your own pace of your gameplay.

Yes, it does. It just sets an upper limit.

And blizzard defines the limit.

And they did that all the way back in Vanilla already. There's always been a limit on how much of something you could do in a given time.

Besides, you're not even talking about timegating. Timegating would be if you automatically gained rep over time, with nothing you could do about it either way, so you reaching a specific level is solely dependent on time passed.

[cparle87]

The only thing that does not belong is an item gated by pure RNG. They really went all in on the RNG stuff in WoD and likely scared off millions of people.

RNG is fine as long as there's an option B to purchase it with currency. There should never be a chance that oneself could hypothetically never obtain an item with repeated attempts of obtaining it.

We've had that ever since classic introduced the first rare drop mount, Rivendere's Deathcharger.

[Irian]

No, actually the only one who benefits is blizzard with longer subscriptions.



No, it does not. Raiders will always have an advantage.



Because gating does not allow you to set your own pace of your gameplay. Actually, there is only blizzard benefitting from it. I would love to be able to do it as like in Cataclysm and before. To take on a tabard and to farm dungeons for a holiday week to get exalted. Today you can do some quests, and are limited in what you may achieve.

And blizzard defines the limit.

Those time gates burn out players. As you have to wait to get reputation the same time with every single alt. I stop playing BfA, because i dont want to send another thousand turtels into the water, split among weeks of grinding.

Well considering you're talking about Cataclysm, an expansion where there was a valor point cap, I can only assume you don't actually understand what I was talking about and you're thinking of something else entirely. I'm not talking about reps, or content like playable races. I'm talking about gear and character progression.

The game from BC until WoD was entirely gated for gear through resources that had weekly caps. That's the way the game was defined and how it existed for the longest period of time. Those ceilings put on things like badges and points caused people to log in every day, to do shit regularly, and to actually participate in the game past a gear casino.

There is virtually no between when it comes to the RNG loot system versus the gated vendors, unless you personally enjoy this RNG loot system, in which we'll have to agree to disagree. The game has been time-gated since classic with raid lockouts, you can't just give a hard "no" to time gating without thinking about it. If there is no RNG loot system and no time-gated point/badge system then you have a game that players will consume at a blistering pace and then you have a shit expansion that nobody wants to play.
Need proof of this? See WoD. That's literally what happened. The game was designed the way you want it to be: a limited RNG based loot system, and no currency system. Normal raid level loot was readily available, and they had different and extremely awkward Apexis grinds for loot otherwise, and you know what people did? There was a period of about 2-3 weeks where people were loving the expansion, grinding their ass off, getting their Garrisons in order, getting entry-level epics....and then they stopped playing. People widely considered it the worst expansion because there was nothing to do, despite the fact that there were plenty of other avenues to pursue gear like Apexis Crystals, but people chose the path of least resistance, got to normal raid gear level, and then said "What now?"

This is why weekly caps are important and downright mandatory if we want to discuss the removal of RNG loot systems. They're what predated it and what a lot of people miss, a reason to log in regularly and do shit. I know "time gating" is a bad word to a lot of people but there's a reason it exists.

[Irian]

I think you did not really get what i was talking about. I talked about the reputation system, and that reputations are time gated nowadays, and hadnt been before Cataclysm.

Please elaborate your statement based on that. Thanks.

My statement on that is that I was never actually talking about reputations so I don't know why you're even bringing them up. My entire first post that you responded to was about a valor point/badge system in regards to currency. I specifically stated that much.

I think you need to go and reread some things.

[Aleksej89]

skinner box concept was never good or enjoyable.

just now blizzard has also ruined character progression systems as well as class design, so it can't get any worse.

hopefully they can turn it around by 8.2 or 8.3 - otherwise just waiting to see 9.0.

[Kronklez]

skinner box concept was never good or enjoyable.

just now blizzard has also ruined character progression systems as well as class design, so it can't get any worse.

hopefully they can turn it around by 8.2 or 8.3 - otherwise just waiting to see 9.0.

Agreed. I'd love to see some meaningful character progression come back. We can only hope to see some changes this year with the coming patches.

[Teri]

Daily rewards, limited time missions, % off deals, all work with the "sense of urgency", and alongside RNG is becoming a more common thing in game design.

Free to play games cash in on that even more heavily.

[Deleted]

Daily rewards, limited time missions, % off deals, all work with the "sense of urgency", and alongside RNG is becoming a more common thing in game design.

Free to play games cash in on that even more heavily.

I rather take a f2p game with all that stuff than WoW with box price + sub on top of mtx and gold-shop. Thank you. Bye WoW.

[Kronklez]

Probably not though. You'll be stuck with the current systems until 9.0.
They are not capable of changing systems in mid-expac, they can only do some tuning around them.

Unfortunately this is what we're lead to believe but it's not that they can't add stuff down the line (like the new HOA system coming soon™). Maybe we'll get a legendary, who knows.

But like i said, we can only hope for something to be changed or introduced.

[Teri]

I rather take a f2p game with all that stuff than WoW with box price + sub on top of mtx and gold-shop. Thank you. Bye WoW.

Depends, I do play World of Warships for about a year now, and the skinner box is getting much worse compared to the start.

At least I enjoyed it for many hours without paying anything (2500 matches that are 15-20 mins on average), so I can't complain if I'd quit at any time.

[MoanaLisa]

I've been thinking for a while about what sort of MMO would you come up with if you designed your expansion with a different sort of player in mind than what we mostly see here.

I'll use myself as an example: I play maybe twice a week. Not every week. I play with friends, sometimes just two or three but we manage to get five together two or three times a month. I play a lot solo. I don't engage with the random player community at all. I'm probably low on the daily active user measurement but fairly high on monthly active users. WoW is a bit unique in that monetizing players that play 60-100 hours a month works out to be roughly the same as someone that plays 10 hours a month.

How many of us are there? I don't know but I suspect quite a lot and most of us are relatively invisible especially since Blizzard doesn't report subscriptions any longer. The subscription price to me is well worth it even for 6-10 hours a month. $15 is the cost of a premium burger in a lot of places. It's really nothing for a lot of people. We're also invisible because I think my forum participation is an outlier. Most folk like this probably don't visit this site or any other. If they visit anywhere at all it will be on Blizzard's forums. No one I know personally has ever posted here. Most don't even know it exists or that I have anything to do with it.

So, the question becomes: given a high number of players that tend to be "sticky" in a different sense than the DAU/MAU ratio what kind of expansion do you design? Skinner Box principles are a good guide for players like myself. We're already at some distance from the game. We're not in it often enough to be truly "addicted" in that sense. The repetitive content wears better (sorry, it just does). Rewards matter less because we're not on the gearing hamster wheel. RNG bonuses are true surprises and quite pleasant when they occur. I don't have any expectations and could not care less about BiS.

It's just preliminary thoughts. What do you think? Is Blizzard putting the hard core player more on the back burner to cultivate big MAU numbers? I don't know but it makes a certain amount of sense. Classic plays into this as well.

Not going to make a separate thread about this because this is so preliminary and not thought through.

[Gavll]

How about just make it fun to play instead of relying of pseudo psychological bollocks. I guarantee nobody ever heard of this shit when the original Blizz was designing classic games.

[Schizoide]

Not at all, they're simply trying to expand their market. Pet battles are a great example of that-- it's a completely separate game inside WoW. It's not a game that I, personally, care about. But that's OK. It's optional. Same with structured PvP. It burns when I PvP, but lots of people love it.

There are lots of ways to add separate games inside your MMO. Player housing is a big one; Rift and Wildstar did great jobs there, not that it helped them much. ESO has an excellent player housing game too, if you're into that sort of thing.

Cryptic's Neverwinter experimented with user-generated content and did some really cool stuff there, players could create dungeons with stories, custom NPCs, bosses, etc.

Trove allows you to build your own world, Minecraft style.

Star Wars Galaxies had a whole gathering, crafting, and merchant game, with an insane level of depth. Many people really loved it. SWG also did a lot to incentivize player interdependence, with real people playing music and dancing in cantinas, required to regenerate one of the game's 3 healthbars. (Yeah, SWG had a lot of problems.)

[Kemsa]

The only thing that does not belong is an item gated by pure RNG. They really went all in on the RNG stuff in WoD and likely scared off millions of people.

RNG is fine as long as there's an option B to purchase it with currency. There should never be a chance that oneself could hypothetically never obtain an item with repeated attempts of obtaining it.

ahahah haahahah ahah You never played any mmorpg didnt you? you should have try TIBIA OR RAGNAROK ONLINE before WoW mah dude hahahahahah.


Now to the topic, i love this psicologic analisis, i really enjoy them. Now the real problem with WoW, its not a gating or programmed continuity (this have been since TBC) its the LACK of RPG elements in the game, making the MEME "THEME PARK MMO" i am really impress that WoW have not ended just like any other asian theme park mmo. THE FACT that many people including me, every time we heard on WoW "SOMETHING NEW" it begins our salivation, and maybe its just a new "glow for the eyes" and everything goes crazy.

Instead of "NEW TALENT TREE" "NEW CLASS" we decided that minor content in big patches are the ones that we love. And when big patches with great content arrives we want them unlocked already. And when we finish the content we want more, instead of pacing it, to ROLL PLAY, with the game, we just want everything right meow. And this type of "culture" has been driving the development of games this 5 years straight ahead, probably more. I know its not fair to just compare 2 games, but look at "RETURN TO THE OBRA DIM" vs the new "CALL OF DUTY" one full of engaging mystery, drama, story with minimal explanation. Another just go and fight, every BR now. Even WoW is that, go do DF go RF, go Normal/heroic, WQ, Emisary invasion. Boom. One will think, wait this is a lot of content every day, but they feel more like chores than RPG content.

Just look at the Island expeditions, instead of being like the old pandaria scenarios, describing a side story with lore content, pacing it to be finish not in less minute, but enjoying the journey. You just go and do what it best for you... what is it?? kill everything. Give that a timer. Now it looks more of a BR vs NPCs o but you can "pvp too" see? WoW lost its RPG element long ago, and trying to introduce it now its actually more sinical than helpfull.

[Irian]

It's just preliminary thoughts. What do you think? Is Blizzard putting the hard core player more on the back burner to cultivate big MAU numbers? I don't know but it makes a certain amount of sense. Classic plays into this as well.

Not going to make a separate thread about this because this is so preliminary and not thought through.

I've wobbled in and out of being casual/serious with the game and the big thing I can remember of periods when I was having a ton of fun and periods where I would log in and not know what to do was when currency fueled the progression system.

I can't speak for anyone else but RNG loot systems just don't do it the same for me. I can't log in with a goal like "Okay, I want to play my shaman alt. Time to start grinding those badges." or "I still need to complete a daily heroic on this many more days this week to VP cap". The currency-based gear system simultaneously being rewarded from both the current tier of raiding and a few daily routines meant that that ICC badge gear during WotLK was the gold standard that put players on an even playing field, and gave them a goal. At that point, your quest upwards in power was raiding.

I honestly just feel like the system served me better both from a standpoint of a hardcore player and an, at times, extremely casual player who did nothing but mess with her alts. Getting to wherever I decided my character's endpoint was was satisfying as hell and showed a time investment that was rewarded with a clear path. It helped me do things like tournament dailies and daily heroics faster, so while I wasn't aiming for gear specifically it didn't feel like I was wasting my time to also invest myself in that as well.