Feedback: The state of PvP

[Valhalladin]

Hello everyone,

I have created this thread because I would like to discuss my thoughts on the state of PVP and the broad direction of the game regarding it. I'd like to begin by expressing my love for this game. I began all the way back in TBC. I have played and enjoyed all aspects of the game, from collecting, to raiding, pvping, and everything else. I have made great friends playing this game and created some of my fondest memories. Altogether I have clocked over a years game time on all of my characters. During my time playing this game I have had my criticisms regarding some of the directions the game has taken but never felt the need to express those opinions to the player-base. Unfortunately, due to reasons I will go on to explain I think it is my duty as a fan, a consumer and a blizzard loyalist to address these concerns. In doing so I would like to keep all criticisms constructive and I hope all fellow gamers do the same.

First and foremost I would like to discuss the biggest issue I have with pvp and that is something that underlays the core mechanics of all current content. The gearing system, and with it, the rewarding system. World Quests, World bosses, Crafting, Dungeons, Mythic +, Raiding, Warfronts, Arena, battlegrounds. Warforged, Titanforging, azerite. The gearing path can be a little confusing at times, but for PVE, the objective to gear is often straightforward. Capped, you begin world quests, then you can progress to other PVE content like Warfronts, Mythic +/LFR and continue to raiding difficulties. Pvp on the other-hand is more than difficult.. and for these reasons.... The progress to gear sufficiently as a pvp player consists of pve activities. Although many people might like dual content - dungeons / pvp etc (Including myself to an extent) there isn't a equal playing field for pvp. For this I would like to give an example..

By the end of season 1 BFA I had sufficient gear to do RBG/Arena with. Nothing amazing, it did the job. Season 2 rolls around and people are starting to have higher ilvl from raiding. I couldn't get into decent RBG teams even though I had desired rating experience. This was because of my ilvl. I try and get into Raids and are refused because A: Ivl (Which I can't get because I'm not raiding in a pve guild as they are because I am a pvp player) and B: I do not have pve curve achievement to link. As for the PVP gear, as anyone who has pvp knows. You are locked to 1 guaranteed piece a week, which isn't always as good as the piece you already have. Meaning it has a chance to go to waste. Secondly, any gear you may or not receive for playing pvp is completely random and not always guaranteed to drop at a consistent rate as your play time. In equivalent time spent, pvp players are at a distinct disadvantage from raiders and pve content players in gearing for pvp. On top of this because of the state of pvp, battleground participation is low, resulting in higher and higher queue times. This is frustrating and very time consuming to gear as a pvp player. If it is quicker and easier to get pve for pvp, and you are a pvp player, something is clearly wrong and this needs to be addressed.

Secondly, for the most part, as gear feels obtainable from all sources of the game. There is no set goal to work towards like there used to be. As a pvper there was an end goal, something to work towards. Obtain a full set of pvp gear. It was rewarding, it was fun. You could see that every win you achieved was building towards something. Something you needed. That you could choose. It is the equivalent end progression for a pvp player as there was for pve. This is not to say that pve players should be at a disadvantage. They should be allowed to play pvp. But Pvp gear should have a distinct advantage. Just like pvp will never outshine pve gear.

The desired outcome is a more simplified progression path for gear.


Max Level -> Professions/World Quests -
-> Mythic+ Dungeons -> Heroic/Mythic Raiding
-> Base Battleground/Skirmish -> Ranked Arena/RBG

Fixing the gearing system I believe is the first step towards fixing Warcraft PVP. Time is being invested in upgraded old battlegrounds like Warsong and Arathi. We got new arena maps and revamps consistently every expansion. A new battleground was added at the end of Legion. It makes me wonder who Blizzard are trying to satisfy with this content? The foundation to pvp is broken and until it is fixed and there has been enough incentive for participation, then content like this does not matter. I feel like this issue with the gearing system is underlying a lot of BFA's problems. Azerite farming. Warfronts, World Quests. It's all mixed progression. To me feels like content that has been designed to force participation and that is wrong. Let players play the content they like to play. Forcing players to participate in things they don't want to is going to drive them away, and has done so already in my opinion.

For me personally, I would like for the following to be addressed to begin fixing the pvp problem.

1: Include pvp vendors into the game once more.
2: Assess the gearing methods. Bring back or improve on old pvp gearing stats like resilience.
3: As an alternative, have an obtainable PVP gear set. (Click a button in your bag to make a full pvp set of a base item level.) I don't feel this is the right way to go but will provide an instant playing field for all participants, including an easier way to balance classes as all are built around a stat template.

This is just my general feedback and hope everyone has enjoyed the read.
I would like to know your guys feedback, let me know if you agree, disagree or if you have any thoughts on the subject.

Kind Regards

[Tyrannica]

Hello everyone,

I have created this thread because I would like to discuss my thoughts on the state of PVP and the broad direction of the game regarding it. I'd like to begin by expressing my love for this game. I began all the way back in TBC. I have played and enjoyed all aspects of the game, from collecting, to raiding, pvping, and everything else. I have made great friends playing this game and created some of my fondest memories. Altogether I have clocked over a years game time on all of my characters. During my time playing this game I have had my criticisms regarding some of the directions the game has taken but never felt the need to express those opinions to the player-base. Unfortunately, due to reasons I will go on to explain I think it is my duty as a fan, a consumer and a blizzard loyalist to address these concerns. In doing so I would like to keep all criticisms constructive and I hope all fellow gamers do the same.

First and foremost I would like to discuss the biggest issue I have with pvp and that is something that underlays the core mechanics of all current content. The gearing system, and with it, the rewarding system. World Quests, World bosses, Crafting, Dungeons, Mythic +, Raiding, Warfronts, Arena, battlegrounds. Warforged, Titanforging, azerite. The gearing path can be a little confusing at times, but for PVE, the objective to gear is often straightforward. Capped, you begin world quests, then you can progress to other PVE content like Warfronts, Mythic +/LFR and continue to raiding difficulties. Pvp on the other-hand is more than difficult.. and for these reasons.... The progress to gear sufficiently as a pvp player consists of pve activities. Although many people might like dual content - dungeons / pvp etc (Including myself to an extent) there isn't a equal playing field for pvp. For this I would like to give an example..

By the end of season 1 BFA I had sufficient gear to do RBG/Arena with. Nothing amazing, it did the job. Season 2 rolls around and people are starting to have higher ilvl from raiding. I couldn't get into decent RBG teams even though I had desired rating experience. This was because of my ilvl. I try and get into Raids and are refused because A: Ivl (Which I can't get because I'm not raiding in a pve guild as they are because I am a pvp player) and B: I do not have pve curve achievement to link. As for the PVP gear, as anyone who has pvp knows. You are locked to 1 guaranteed piece a week, which isn't always as good as the piece you already have. Meaning it has a chance to go to waste. Secondly, any gear you may or not receive for playing pvp is completely random and not always guaranteed to drop at a consistent rate as your play time. In equivalent time spent, pvp players are at a distinct disadvantage from raiders and pve content players in gearing for pvp. On top of this because of the state of pvp, battleground participation is low, resulting in higher and higher queue times. This is frustrating and very time consuming to gear as a pvp player. If it is quicker and easier to get pve for pvp, and you are a pvp player, something is clearly wrong and this needs to be addressed.

Secondly, for the most part, as gear feels obtainable from all sources of the game. There is no set goal to work towards like there used to be. As a pvper there was an end goal, something to work towards. Obtain a full set of pvp gear. It was rewarding, it was fun. You could see that every win you achieved was building towards something. Something you needed. That you could choose. It is the equivalent end progression for a pvp player as there was for pve. This is not to say that pve players should be at a disadvantage. They should be allowed to play pvp. But Pvp gear should have a distinct advantage. Just like pvp will never outshine pve gear.

The desired outcome is a more simplified progression path for gear.


Max Level -> Professions/World Quests -
-> Mythic+ Dungeons -> Heroic/Mythic Raiding
-> Base Battleground/Skirmish -> Ranked Arena/RBG

Fixing the gearing system I believe is the first step towards fixing Warcraft PVP. Time is being invested in upgraded old battlegrounds like Warsong and Arathi. We got new arena maps and revamps consistently every expansion. A new battleground was added at the end of Legion. It makes me wonder who Blizzard are trying to satisfy with this content? The foundation to pvp is broken and until it is fixed and there has been enough incentive for participation, then content like this does not matter. I feel like this issue with the gearing system is underlying a lot of BFA's problems. Azerite farming. Warfronts, World Quests. It's all mixed progression. To me feels like content that has been designed to force participation and that is wrong. Let players play the content they like to play. Forcing players to participate in things they don't want to is going to drive them away, and has done so already in my opinion.

For me personally, I would like for the following to be addressed to begin fixing the pvp problem.

1: Include pvp vendors into the game once more.
2: Assess the gearing methods. Bring back or improve on old pvp gearing stats like resilience.
3: As an alternative, have an obtainable PVP gear set. (Click a button in your bag to make a full pvp set of a base item level.) I don't feel this is the right way to go but will provide an instant playing field for all participants, including an easier way to balance classes as all are built around a stat template.

This is just my general feedback and hope everyone has enjoyed the read.
I would like to know your guys feedback, let me know if you agree, disagree or if you have any thoughts on the subject.

Kind Regards

Couldn't read it all, but i agree part of the problem in current wow pvp is the gearing path.

Or lets go straight to the point, random bgs are not rewarded enough - the ilvl that gear gives you is a joke and besides its rng, too.

At that point its save to say to revert it all back to wod standards.(i'd prefere TBC, but that won't happen)

The WoD pvp system was the last refined system of the old honor model we had before legion launched.

But i guess current developers of wow are too proud to admit, that their new pvp system failed and won't accept defeat and roll back.

Professions are in the same state as random bg rewards - they look like they are in beta and are very unfinished.

It would also be great to have lootable player corpses like in WoD for some more immersion(strenghtening the rp/economy aspects of wow pvp).

But you should tell this a dev at twitter directly, i think.

This sub forum is almost dead.

[Frosteye]

Anything other than PVP Vendors similar to WOD(and prior) is not going to work.

We need PVP Vendors for PVP.

[Queendom]

I understand this is an MMO and gearing is the basic concept of the game, but it really have no place in PvP. I was very glad to see they effectively removed any gear requirements in Legion PvP, so you can just jump into play on fresh max level character, but BfA with its Azerite talents made gearing for PvP more frustrating than ever.

[Thelxi]

Yeah PvP gearing progression is probably the worst collateral damage that came from moving from deterministic reward structures to pure and extreme RNG. Blizzard was even brazen enough recently to admit that indeed the reason they removed PvP vendors is to facilitate the PvE reward structures, which just in case their intentions aren't already blatantly obvious to you, quite clearly spells out that we won't be seeing an appropriate reward structure for PvP until PvE reward structures are also changed, which is not happening any time soon if ever.

It's sad how they casually sacrificed PvP for the sake of gambling, but this is the state of WoW which more and more people are seeing for what it is.

[Matthias]

At that point its save to say to revert it all back to wod standards.(i'd prefere TBC, but that won't happen)

The WoD pvp system was the last refined system of the old honor model we had before legion launched.

But i guess current developers of wow are too proud to admit, that their new pvp system failed and won't accept defeat and roll back.

Professions are in the same state as random bg rewards - they look like they are in beta and are very unfinished.

It would also be great to have lootable player corpses like in WoD for some more immersion(strenghtening the rp/economy aspects of wow pvp).

I really thought Blizzard finally nailed it in WoD with the gearing system. PvP gear was designed for PvP however had a naturally lower ilvl than PvE gear, the PvP gear will scale up to the respective equivalent PvE level in PvP Combat. This meant that if you were transitioning from PvE to PvP you wouldn't get totally smashed. This was a problem for years. However you were still at a naturally disadvantage since your PvE gear was.....well designed for PvE. you lacked critical set bonuses and trinkets.

Yes a fresh toon would get crushed, but this is part of an RPGs progression, bite down and grind it out, eventually your not getting rolled and better yet you start rolling other people.

Also side question, it's my understanding that the GCD changes were mostly intended to stop people from getting gibbed in PvP......was this worth butchering class design and making everyone salty? I did notice far less balance QQ in Season 1 they I ever had for an initial PvP Expansion.

[Aryvandaar]

I have barely PvPed before, and just as I get properly into it, there are no more PvP vendors. Just a convoluted reward system that Ian thinks is less confusing.

[Tyrannica]

I really thought Blizzard finally nailed it in WoD with the gearing system. PvP gear was designed for PvP however had a naturally lower ilvl than PvE gear, the PvP gear will scale up to the respective equivalent PvE level in PvP Combat. This meant that if you were transitioning from PvE to PvP you wouldn't get totally smashed. This was a problem for years. However you were still at a naturally disadvantage since your PvE gear was.....well designed for PvE. you lacked critical set bonuses and trinkets.

Yes a fresh toon would get crushed, but this is part of an RPGs progression, bite down and grind it out, eventually your not getting rolled and better yet you start rolling other people.

Also side question, it's my understanding that the GCD changes were mostly intended to stop people from getting gibbed in PvP......was this worth butchering class design and making everyone salty? I did notice far less balance QQ in Season 1 they I ever had for an initial PvP Expansion.

yeah, well i do not even thing ist necessary to lower an ilvl of conquest gear in pve lower than hc gear and high rated gear lower than mythic gear, because back then, there was still pve Tier set bonusses and really powerful trinkets.

And i think only pve gear could warforge/titanforge ,while pvp gear was always a fixed ilvl?

So high ilvl pve gear had enough Advantages as is.


Basicly we all pay with time for that game and for me it matters Little if i do Arena/rbg or Hc Raids and the first 3 mythic bosses. Its just pvp is way more fun, to do in basicly the same time period while playing wow.

[Cempa]

Its not as fun anymore .. Bear form heal or warrior tank root spam or DPS crazy high self healing or melee gap closers, ranged insta gimp combos .. The game today combat design wise, has never been this bad -and im including vanilla!

[Tyrannica]

but BfA with its Azerite talents made gearing for PvP more frustrating than ever.

But, mainly because they still nerf azerite traits exclusively in pvp(soul bond nerf, today) after their flat -50% nerf of all traits in pvp.

Its hard to keep track of whats going on.

Legion wasn't much better - no one knew the actual pvp nerfs/hotfixes made on all the classes and we had many hotfixes on class balance in pvp there,too which were hard to follow at all. Complains about that got ignored and carried over to BfA.

The only transparent system with some logic applied was resilence and pvp power, back in mop. And WoD was an easy solution of that, not perfect, but anything is better than legion+ pvp systems.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not as fun anymore .. Bear form heal or warrior tank root spam or DPS crazy high self healing or melee gap closers, ranged insta gimp combos .. The game today combat design wise, has never been this bad -and im including vanilla!

Really? In terms of fun i agree, balance wise not so much.

We are talking of world of roguecraft here and the time when stuns and fear had no dr and you could not hope to ever move your character out of it + 3-5min trinkets to combat that cc spam.

But the gar pogression was much better than this mindless rng spam we had now, and a honor meaned someting.(i guess this one got a multiple meaning lol, devs have no honor if they put such a honorless pvp rng spamfest into wow)

Really, its unfun to do pvp for the gear, today. I do it only if i got bloodthirsty when the star aligns and the full moon rises or somone provokes me in warmode.....lol

Hard to bring myself to go instanced nowdays...once i have maxed out a char just by doing mythic+ and hc raids spam or even less than that, thanks to rng gods.