and the govt shutdown still exists..

[muto]

Words have meaning and no one is psychic, also your argument boils down to we wasted money before I am fine with flushing more down the toilet.

Pretty much. 5 billion is a drop in a bucket compared to 22 trillion.

[crewskater]

If you think insurance rates had to skyrocket despite the multibillion dollar annual revenue insurance companies already posted, just because now they can't cancel or deny insurance to people who actually have to make use of the insurance offered for more than the occasional doctor visit, I'm not sure how to explain it to you why that system was and remains beyond fucked, deserves to burn, and needs to be replaced whole cloth with something more customer-friendly.

Insurance companies shouldn't be able to deny people but they can raise the rates on those who are higher risk than others. Is that a fair middle ground?

[muto]

Why don't we build a giant $5 billion statue of Obama, we spend trillions in the ME so it shouldn't be a problem...

Sure if it helps keep illegals out.

[Travis B]

I thought Hollywood celebs were supposed to keep their mouths shut about politics and just entertain us? /sarcasm

Funny how LeBron is supposed to just shut up and dribble instead of talking about civil rights, and the Parkland students who were literally shot at are supposed to shut up about gun legislation, but if a has-been martial arts actor talks about a wall, all must listen.

[Sky High]

I know we’re not because Obama doubled the National Debt.

and he shrunk the deficient which is what actually matters...

[Najnaj]

Is no one going to bring up the fact that illegal border crossings from Mexico has been on a steady decline since the 80s and are today at an all time low?

[Animalhouse]

Wait you think using Ted Cruz is a good argument? that should be an automatic lost that spineless sniveling moron goes where the wind blows. Also who gives a flying fuck about Chuck Norris?

Did you not see the most important part? $14 BILLION OF EL CHAPO'S DRUG EMPIRE MONEY TO FUND.
I mean FFS, you people never look at things of substance if it comes from someone you hate (and that hate list is looooong).
I despise Ted Cruz but using Chapo's money to fund security is brilliant.

[Skroe]

I don’t like that it happened either but it did.

No. It did not. And you are a liar. And you are wrong.

ISIS's original name is Al Qaeda in Iraq, or Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia. It's Al-Zawahiri's group renamed and grown. It predated Obama. Al Qaeda in Iraq was an independent regional terrorist group known as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (Organization of Monotheism and Jihad). It was founded in Jordan in 1999 by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The Goal of JTJ was to overthrow the Kingdom of Jordan and establish a caliphate.

After 9/11, Zarqawi and JTJ moved to Iraq, but had no relationship with the government. They were not helped but they were not hindered either.

After the Invasion of Iraq, JTJ incorporated part of another counter-Kurdish terrorist group called Ansar al-Islam. In the style of the time, the relabeled themselves as "Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia". This is refered to the franchising of terrorism, and it is something practiced a decade later when far-flung terrorist groups renamed themselves "ISIS in ______", in a way of riding the success and claiming cooperation with the famous group. Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia was at first considered illegitimate by the leaders of Al Qaeda Central, who disapproved of the small scale and brutal tactics of Zarqawi. Al Qaeda Central was more concerned with big attacks and coordinate campaigns, rather than the militant-style combat of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

Eventually though Al Qaeda Central bestowed it's tacit approval on Al Qaeda Mesopotamia, but there is little evidence that the groups ever formally assisted each other. And with the Iraq War worsening and the ~2004/2005 Afghanistan situation looking bleak for Al Qaeda, there was an element of institutional jealousy. AQM rose in prominence as it was the one *actually* fighting and killing US troops, whereas Al Qaeda Central, which launched 9/11, had done nothing in years and mostly just kept releasing videos and hiding.

Zarqawi was eventually killed and AQM was significantly depleted. But the threat environment in Iraq changed, as the war became much more multifaceted. There were many insurgent groups, both Shiite and Sunni and Kurdish, fighting US Troops (except the Kurds) and each other. There was also a high degree (arguably greater than terrorism) of secular militantism and criminality as the Iraqi government's policy and military forces proved unable to enforce the peace.

This lead to General Petraeus' surge and the Sunni Awakening, which basically bought off the secular-interest and moderate Sunni groups and pointed them towards the actual Islamicists and Iranian-backed groups. This allowed for the withdrawal announcement of US Troops in Iraq by Obama.

However what DIDN'T take place was the political reconciliation that brought the Shiite Groups and the Sunni Awakening Groups into the fold of the government permanently. And as soon as the US left, and the money dried up, they fought for territory and interests and the low-level insurgency resumed. This opened the way for AQM to reconstitute itself, and merge with an assortment of militant groups on either side of the Iraq and Syrian border. This is how ISIS was born.

The US couldn't force these parties to reconcile. Only the US could. Dropping that at the feat of Obama is foolhardy. He could have done more to help the reconciliation, but in the end, it was their choice. The end result of the failure of Iraqi leaders to do this was quite clear, when in the face of ISIS, the Iraqi Army fled, but Shiite militants loyal to the ruling political party - and independent power base in Iraq - stood their ground and fought hard. The "fighting men" of Iraq join militant groups, not the armed forced.

That is how ISIS was actually born. Not your ridiculous lie.

[Kathandira]

Is no one going to bring up the fact that illegal border crossings from Mexico has been on a steady decline since the 80s and are today at an all time low?

Lies! They are coming over by the millions every day! They are stealing our jobs and sending them back to Mexico, and they are putting drugs in our babies!

[Sky High]

Just build the wall already and get it over with then. 5 Billion is cheap change compared to how much money US invests in the military, or throws away at Israel.

except its not going to be just 5 billion. its just 5 billion NOW which lest we forget is what Trump said NO to!

[Sunseeker]

Just build the wall already and get it over with then. 5 Billion is cheap change compared to how much money US invests in the military, or throws away at Israel.

Spending money on other bullshit is not an argument we should spend more money on new bullshit.

[Animalhouse]

And when is that happening again?

That is a great question. Never, if the globalists have their way.
This is something I really want to go into great detail because many against Trump don't understand why the entire establishment is against him.
I will save that for a new thread where leftist mods can lock it down and or infract me.

[Kathandira]

except its not going to be just 5 billion. its just 5 billion NOW which lest we forget is what Trump said NO to!

Curious though. Even if the Wall gets built. Once someone who is opposed to the wall gets into office, can't they defund the upkeep and such?

[Skroe]

Trump has no choice but to buckle down and try and get something for the wall. The people who elected him did so in part because they wanted the wall built. Those people are overwhelming telling him not to back down, because basically if he buckles now it is as good as dead and he is finished. He may not get reelected anyways but if he backs down it is basically a 100% guarantee.

He has backed himself into a corner, his Presidency has basically come down to this. Give in and he is a lame duck for the rest of it, because he won't even have the support of the people that elected him.

I'm in Tennessee, Trumpville central, and that is exactly what people here are saying. They see it as a do or die moment, so l don't see it ending for a while.

And that is why it is crucial to defeat Trump here.

Trump was enormously weakened by his loss in the 2018 midterm election. He's been limping on like an overweight deer with multiple leg fractures ever since. He's been trying (and failing) to reassert his authority. In truth, he's weak, and getting weaker.

If Trump is defeated on the wall though, here, now, his power is utterly broken. It doesn't just make him vulnerable in 2020. It help makes him more vulnerable to impeachment.

[Sky High]

Curious though. Even if the Wall gets built. Once someone who is opposed to the wall gets into office, can't they defund the upkeep and such?

even if they started on it now as Donny demands it'll take decades to finish it. it's incredible that a talking point cooked up by Trump's campaign team to keep him focused is doing this much damage to our country.

[Kathandira]

even if they started on it now as Donny demands it'll take decades to finish it. it's incredible that a talking point cooked up by Trump's campaign team to keep him focused is doing this much damage to our country.

That is even better imo. If he gets his way and starts construction, the next president may be able to defund the construction and have the resources returned/re-purposed.

[Sunseeker]

I don't see anyone outraged in these forums at the Israel "help", or at the insane military budget, or at the recent bipartisan law against BDS, basically taking a dump on citizens to protect the economic interests of a foreign state.

I would be far more inclined to side with people against the wall, if they would also take these other stances.

Then you should invest in some glasses. There has been a great deal of people commenting here about that. They're just not commenting about it now because the Wall is the focus today.

[Sky High]

That is even better imo. If he gets his way and starts construction, the next president may be able to defund the construction and have the resources returned/re-purposed.

oh they will, the second Trump is out it'll happen. neither party wants that stupid thing.

[Thekri]

Just build the wall already and get it over with then. 5 Billion is cheap change compared to how much money US invests in the military, or throws away at Israel.

Five Billion is not the price tag for the wall. It isn't even a down payment on it. There is no price tag on the wall, there are estimates from 10 billion all the way up to 3 trillion for a wall (The high end ones were clearly jokes, but the lowest estimates are no less ridiculous). Trump himself has claimed 8 billion, 10 billion, 12 billion, 15 billion, and 26 billion dollars (He hasn't been exactly consistent).


Either way, this 5 billion dollars isn't actually going to anything apparently. There are no designs for the wall, the government didn't approve any of those prototypes that Trump toured more then a year ago. The government still doesn't own the necessary land, they don't have a contractor, a design, a space, a purpose, the materials, or anything else that is needed to build something. They haven't even produced a set of criteria to grade potential bids yet.


I am closer to building a 1:1 replica of the Great Pyramid then Trump is to building a wall. At least I have some idea of what it will look like.

[Sinyc]

I'm sure their landlords, utility companies, phone companies, internet companies, and grocers will all be very understanding and just let them get by with a, "Don't worry, I'll be getting paid... eventually!"

Those people still need to pay rent/utilities, eat food..

Yeah back pay really helps when your mortgage is due right now...

In fairness, not everyone has enough saved up to make necessary payments, especially in the beginning of the year when people are recovering from Christmas. If this goes on for long enough, those who don't have savings to cover this could have their credit affected, or simply be unable to pay for important things (which can include very important things like medication).

Yes, it is very likely that they will get paid when this is all said and done, but for some folks, the damage will already be done, and now they have to repair their situation because of a pointless shut down.

I didn't ever say this was a good thing, or that these people were well off....
I would hope they aren't living paycheck to paycheck, but I know that is unreasonable to assume... even for government jobs. Which is really sad.