Retri paladin off healing is fucking stupid

[Swalload]

yeah, but what if they think that roles in pvp bring the same value? what if they think that dps and healers are both equally valuable?

also yeah, you can say that game design is making the game less balanced, so they have to take it into account and make some changes so it would be more or less balanced.. but when they were making these changes to the game(im talking about pruning, not healer design), they werent thinking about pvp balance at all

also there you think that if the game isnt completely balanced(btw it never will be) then its pretty much imbalanced to the point that it sucks..

i personally believe that balance, while super important, isnt the reason why pvp in the current game suck balls.. in fact there were times when actually dampening wasnt a thing, healers werent op(well i dont think they're truly op now, but by your definition they are), triple dps was also a thing, but the game wasnt balanced at all.. but it was actually super fucking fun to play.. even if you played classes that werent all that good

But dps and healers right now absolutelty, mathematically, factually and objectively do not have the same value, AT ALL. This is not an opinion by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think Blizzard believes healers have the same value as DPS either. I'm sure they know healers have more value and I'm also sure that's what they want. The model of 2dps+heals for 3v3 looks good, doesn't mean it's balanced tho.

In PvP the game can be balanced, because it's only classes against classes. In PvE it's harder to balance because the encounters are different from one fight to another so a class that has good AoE like ele shaman for example suddenly has more value just because of what content they find themselves in. In pvp there's no content changing, it's always the same, you only fight the existing classes. So it's very possible to reach a good balance there. Which is a good thing because balance in pvp is far more important than in PvE.

I agree that balance is not the only reason why pvp sucks, but it's one of them.

[Craaazyyy]

But dps and healers right now absolutelty, mathematically, factually and objectively do not have the same value, AT ALL. This is not an opinion by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think Blizzard believes healers have the same value as DPS either. I'm sure they know healers have more value and I'm also sure that's what they want. The model of 2dps+heals for 3v3 looks good, doesn't mean it's balanced tho.

In PvP the game can be balanced, because it's only classes against classes. In PvE it's harder to balance because the encounters are different from one fight to another so a class that has good AoE like ele shaman for example suddenly has more value just because of what content they find themselves in. In pvp there's no content changing, it's always the same, you only fight the existing classes. So it's very possible to reach a good balance there. Which is a good thing because balance in pvp is far more important than in PvE.

I agree that balance is not the only reason why pvp sucks, but it's one of them.

actually classes against classes is harder to balance than classes against scripted bosses

[Swalload]

actually classes against classes is harder to balance than classes against scripted bosses

You don't balance classes against scripted bosses, you balance them against other class performances on the same bosses otherwise guild will just stack 2-3 classes and reject all the others. This is harder to do because encounters are different from one another while in PvP nothing changes, it's 2 dps and a healer vs 2 dps and a healer. It's extremely easy to balance, take 2 dps, make them fight with only dmging abilities, add a stun to one, see how it does, then lower its dmg to make up for the fact it has a stun so that the fight stays equal. And then do that with every abilities that you add to either one of them. Then you test each classes against every other classes and make tiny adjustments until every class has as close to 50% win/lose ratio as possible. From that point on balancing team will be easier because classes should be much closer in value, sure some things will change as "combos" between classes are created, this should also be taken into consideration but the discrepencies wouldn't be too gigantic.

[Craaazyyy]

You don't balance classes against scripted bosses, you balance them against other class performances on the same bosses otherwise guild will just stack 2-3 classes and reject all the others. This is harder to do because encounters are different from one another while in PvP nothing changes, it's 2 dps and a healer vs 2 dps and a healer. It's extremely easy to balance, take 2 dps, make them fight with only dmging abilities, add a stun to one, see how it does, then lower its dmg to make up for the fact it has a stun so that the fight stays equal. And then do that with every abilities that you add to either one of them. Then you test each classes against every other classes and make tiny adjustments until every class has as close to 50% win/lose ratio as possible. From that point on balancing team will be easier because classes should be much closer in value, sure some things will change as "combos" between classes are created, this should also be taken into consideration but the discrepencies wouldn't be too gigantic.

yeah, but classes dont have just 3 abilities, you know.. in pve you only use your rotation essentially, so its actually pretty easy to balance classes

but in pvp its potentially 6 different classes that have many different abilities(albeit not as many as they used to have, but still)

also when you nerf/buff classes its not just nerfing/buffing that certain class its nerfing/buffing other classes as well without them actually being changed.. this doesnt happen in pve

[Swalload]

yeah, but classes dont have just 3 abilities, you know.. in pve you only use your rotation essentially, so its actually pretty easy to balance classes

but in pvp its potentially 6 different classes that have many different abilities(albeit not as many as they used to have, but still)

But you can't just balance rotation in comparison between classes, it could be good for one fight and then the next it's all fucked up because suddenly that boss has adds that spawn perfectily timed with bladestorm cooldown and boom suddenly warriors who were average the fight before are now gods. That's not a situation that can happen in PvP so you don't have to revisit the balancing job that was done over and over again. You set it once and technically shouldn't ever have to check it again but because they always change classes they shoot themselves in the foot (because the game is not interesting enough to keep people if they don't fake freshness by reworking classes).

[meathead]

Traditionally more mobile melee and most ranged classes with good kiting abilities (i.e.: Mage, Hunter) should decimate a Ret Paladin of equal skill in 1v1s.

Traditionally?what?Traditionally warriors crush pallys that was until wrath came around and pvp was almost destroyed where support/dps specs like ret could heal for more then a healer and yes that did happen. dks were even worse why does a dps spec need that much healing lol, but this broken pvp crap you see today started in wrath.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Traditionally?what?Traditionally warriors crush pallys that was until wrath came around and pvp was almost destroyed where support/dps specs like ret could heal for more then a healer and yes that did happen. dks were even worse why does a dps spec need that much healing lol, but this broken pvp crap you see today started in wrath.

So your logic is that because there was a single expansion (TBC) where Warriors dominated Paladin in 1v1, that means that traditionally Warriors were better in 1v1s? What?