If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[Big Thanks]

Nah just make the honor talents leveling talents. Having 120 talent is bad if they're all passive garbage like 5% more strength. Make the talents that change the way you play the actual game. Which a lot of traits do on par with talents/tier set bonuses.

Blastermaster gives you a fuckton of mastery which is good for aoe burst and sustain but the fireball dup can help during burst for example. Passive talents are boring.

I'd also like if they add runescape system to rank up spells based on usage while leveling.

raw stats are also good customization

full Armor Pen geming was gamebreaking and got nerfed
Dodge rating as rogue was abused and got nerfed
full geming stamina was also overpowered at some point and spells got nerfed because of it

The entire MOBA genre is about customization of raw stats
haste
crit
stamina
avoidance

They are also good customization for a RPG

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

raw stats are also good customization

full Armor Pen geming was gamebreaking and got nerfed
Dodge rating as rogue was abused and got nerfed
full geming stamina was also overpowered at some point and spells got nerfed because of it

The entire MOBA genre is about customization of raw stats
haste
crit
stamina
avoidance

They are also good customization for a RPG

I want reforging back personally. Avoidance shouldn't exist in a pvp game though. It your job to avoid spells not the game engine if that makes sense. Now wow version of reduce aoe dmg that's fine but dodge and parry in there current form are cancer. I'd prefer a more dark souls approach but it's probably to late at this point.

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Lmao, good joke who tf said it was a passive?? It’s a TALENT row ffs lol it should change the way you play the game. The other suggestions give class depth and that is sorely lacking rn. They need abilites back for baseline class AND for specializations that are gained through nothing but leveling. Idk what your xp is in PvP but any high rated player will tell you how bad and shallow the game feels rn in PvP.

We don't disagree completely and I think most of our difference are semantics. I want talents that change the way you play class not copy paste passive garbage. The wotlk talent trees had a lot of passive spells that did nothing to change your priority list at all. I think stuff like that should be gutted. It's kind of why I hate poe a bit yea there a lot of talents but its like dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg, accuracy, dmg, spell, dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg,dmg, spell. I'd prefer to pick spells and specialize instead.

I'd like a system that gave ranked up your spells based on usage. It's of making spell rank part of leveling up like in real life. The more you do something the better you get at it but make it stop once a player hits max.

[Big Thanks]

I want reforging back personally. Avoidance shouldn't exist in a pvp game though. It your job to avoid spells not the game engine if that makes sense. Now wow version of reduce aoe dmg that's fine but dodge and parry in there current form are cancer. I'd prefer a more dark souls approach but it's probably to late at this point.

agreed

Everything is too late at this point
Item level scaling...or whatever scaling is called that makes attacks in pvp remove % of health depending on your gear destroys all customizatio.
Why would a player want to gem stamina nowadays? He wouldnt

All that matters nowadays is the haste, crit, versatility etc

its a poor man's RPG.
The only thing saving the game at this point is azerite...and some good talent decisions by the devs. But is extremely rare.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

agreed

Everything is too late at this point
Item level scaling...or whatever scaling is called that makes attacks in pvp remove % of health depending on your gear destroys all customizatio.
Why would a player want to gem stamina nowadays? He wouldnt

All that matters nowadays is the haste, crit, versatility etc

its a poor man's RPG.
The only thing saving the game at this point is azerite...and some good talent decisions by the devs. But is extremely rare.

Versa
mastery
haste
crit

Secondary stats allow for customization haste and critical strike add sustain dmg for dot classes and aoe sustain for most classes. Critical strke and versaility allow for people to focus on single target burst damage. The balance druids mastery allows you to get a bit more dmg on starsurge once investing in versa stop being more benefital than the damage provided from mastery because of dimishing returns. Shit like that is fun and all the customization choice have no effect on pve because they just run cookie cutter aids anyway.

It doesn't secondary stats actually matter this expansion but not enough in my opinion. In legion they didn't matter at all because of templates. Templates were removed though and You do base dmg and your other stats increase the base damage but at a reduce rate to stop one shots. It's really fucking convulted and poorly explained.

One shotting shouldn't be ok but comboing should be ok. Lining up your trinket procs and class procs to do maximum damage to a player with no defense should be a death sentence.

What I want back:
reforging.
snapshotting.
baseline iframes(vanish,invis ignoring collisions baseline I don't want to talent for this).
sunder armor baseline for all warriors and ignore armor for rogues back.
thunder claps attack speed slow brought back.

The list could be a lot longer lol but this is a good start.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

With old talent system you would go one top build and that's it. You do have actually a choice now.

Only if you were a simple-minded buffoon who couldn't formulate an actual thought of their own to save their pathetic lives.

Lots of people did lots of things with the old system. And the parts that were awful (for instance, Combat Rogues having to take the Sinister Strike improvement just to get that skill to work the way it was intended to work) could have easily been swapped and improved over time.

But no, you heard someone spew this idiotic garbage once years ago, and you're still vomiting up because you think you're being smart and insightful. Total bullshit is all it is. Complete and total bullshit.

[Th3Scourge]

I never said the system was perfect and your talking about having no choice but you refuse to experiment. 3x frigid grasp is op also honor focus is awesome.

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Honor focus buffs allie damage and I can run frigid grasp for single target or whiteout for sustain. It's not my fault you refuse to experiment. Nah the fire mage duplication spell procs hot streaks and blaster master is passive but actively changes the way the class is played.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbimzHrVH0k&t=96s

It's normally fireball fire blast spam but that trait changes your classes playstyle pretty massively. You want to hold on to a 3 blaster master stack as long as possible instead of blowing your load early.

Shamans and warrior have traits that allow them to stack a spell up to a certain amount of stack and than cash in for extra damage. Which isn't passive.

You can get five master blaster stacks.

Here is a list of every DK DPS trait: Please, tell when where I should experiment...

Last Surprise: When your ghouls expire, they explode in viscera dealing 0 Shadow damage to nearby enemies. Passive, no gameplay change
Magus of the Dead: Apocalypse and Army of the Damned additionally summon a Magus of the Dead for 20 sec who hurls Frostbolts and Shadow Bolts at your foes. Passive, no gameplay change
Helchains: Dark Transformations ignites you and your pet with flaming chains that deal 387 Fire damage every sec to enemies between you for 15 sec. Passive, no gameplay change
Festermight: Bursting a Festering Wound grants you 6 Strength for 20 sec, stacking. Stacking this effect does not extend its duration. Passive, no gameplay change
Harrowing Decay: Death Coil infects the target with Harrowing Decay, dealing 100 Shadow damage over 4 sec. Passive, no gameplay change
Cankerous Wounds: Festering Strike deals 154 additional damage and has a 10% increased chance of applying 3 Festering Wounds. Passive, no gameplay change
Bone Spike Graveyard: Casting Defile / Death and Decay impales enemies with bone spikes, inflicting 47 Physical damage and healing you for 125 per enemy. Passive, no gameplay change
Frozen Tempest: Remorseless Winter deals additional damage. The first time Remorseless Winter deals damage to 3 different enemies, you gain Rime. Passive, no gameplay change apart from casting Remorseless winter before rime procs
Killer Frost: Frost Strike deals additional damage with each hit and has a 15% chance on critical strikes to grant Killing Machine. Passive, no gameplay change
Icy Citadel: When Pillar of Frost expires, your Strength is increased for 6 sec. This effect lasts 2 sec longer for each Obliterate and Frostscythe critical strike during Pillar of Frost. Passive, no gameplay change
Latent Chill: Frost Strike deals additional damage if you have at least 3 empty runes. Passive, no gameplay change
Frostwhelp's Indignation: Pillar of Frost summons a Frostwhelp who breathes on all enemies within 20 yards in front of you for 2160 Frost damage. Each unique enemy hit by Frostwhelp's Indignation grants you 35 Mastery for 15 sec, up to 175.Passive, no gameplay change apart from positioning once every minute

[Clozer]

Only if you were a simple-minded buffoon who couldn't formulate an actual thought of their own to save their pathetic lives.

Lots of people did lots of things with the old system. And the parts that were awful (for instance, Combat Rogues having to take the Sinister Strike improvement just to get that skill to work the way it was intended to work) could have easily been swapped and improved over time.

But no, you heard someone spew this idiotic garbage once years ago, and you're still vomiting up because you think you're being smart and insightful. Total bullshit is all it is. Complete and total bullshit.

na 90% of the tree was passive that you would never ever swap out for something else. And the other 10% who were not passive talents were 99% set as well - again nothing to choose from. Of course nobody stopped you from doing your own thing but everyone knew you do your own thing looking at you at the bottom of the meters.

Sometimes i wish i could live in a bubble like you.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

na 90% of the tree was passive that you would never ever swap out for something else. And the other 10% who were not passive talents were 99% set as well - again nothing to choose from. Of course nobody stopped you from doing your own thing but everyone knew you do your own thing looking at you at the bottom of the meters.

Sometimes i wish i could live in a bubble like you.

Jesus fucking Christ, read what you fucking replied to, not whatever cancerous bullshit you have stuck in your head.

"What? If the old talent SYSTEM were here, it would have all the same TALENTS now! DERRPPPPPP! I R GENUZ!!!!!!!! IT WUZ DA SISTEM DAT WAS BAD, NOT DA TALENTZZZZZZ! HERP A DERRRRRRRRRP!" --Every Fucktard in This Thread.

[Clozer]

Jesus fucking Christ, read what you fucking replied to, not whatever cancerous bullshit you have stuck in your head.

"What? If the old talent SYSTEM were here, it would have all the same TALENTS now! DERRPPPPPP! I R GENUZ!!!!!!!! IT WUZ DA SISTEM DAT WAS BAD, NOT DA TALENTZZZZZZ! HERP A DERRRRRRRRRP!" --Every Fucktard in This Thread.

man it must suck to see the bubble burst.

[Biomega]

Old talent trees were pretty horrendous. Not only did you have to take a ton of stuff just to advance (and not because you wanted to actually have it), you also had FAR less choice than people like to think - assuming you actually wanted to perform to the max. And that's the crux of the matter. People remember vanilla's supposed greater freedom of choice largely because min/maxing wasn't as widespread, and, consequently, people were being less of an ass about it in-game. Now you take a sub-par talent or gear combo and get kicked out of your PUG because you're not going with the 2% superior cookie-cutter. That already existed in vanilla, people just didn't know as much about it.

The new talent system is generally superior to the old one. HOWEVER it's still pretty fucked up imo. There's still preciously little choice and customization, and less interesting stuff to do with it. Many specs have a single go-to for their respective game mode, and never respec; other specs switch ever fight; and both hate having to do so, respectively.

They really should completely revamp the progression system. Do a level squish, redo the talent system, and make classes FUN to play again.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Here is a list of every DK DPS trait: Please, tell when where I should experiment...

Last Surprise: When your ghouls expire, they explode in viscera dealing 0 Shadow damage to nearby enemies. Passive, no gameplay change
Magus of the Dead: Apocalypse and Army of the Damned additionally summon a Magus of the Dead for 20 sec who hurls Frostbolts and Shadow Bolts at your foes. Passive, no gameplay change
Helchains: Dark Transformations ignites you and your pet with flaming chains that deal 387 Fire damage every sec to enemies between you for 15 sec. Passive, no gameplay change
Festermight: Bursting a Festering Wound grants you 6 Strength for 20 sec, stacking. Stacking this effect does not extend its duration. Passive, no gameplay change
Harrowing Decay: Death Coil infects the target with Harrowing Decay, dealing 100 Shadow damage over 4 sec. Passive, no gameplay change
Cankerous Wounds: Festering Strike deals 154 additional damage and has a 10% increased chance of applying 3 Festering Wounds. Passive, no gameplay change
Bone Spike Graveyard: Casting Defile / Death and Decay impales enemies with bone spikes, inflicting 47 Physical damage and healing you for 125 per enemy. Passive, no gameplay change
Frozen Tempest: Remorseless Winter deals additional damage. The first time Remorseless Winter deals damage to 3 different enemies, you gain Rime. Passive, no gameplay change apart from casting Remorseless winter before rime procs
Killer Frost: Frost Strike deals additional damage with each hit and has a 15% chance on critical strikes to grant Killing Machine. Passive, no gameplay change
Icy Citadel: When Pillar of Frost expires, your Strength is increased for 6 sec. This effect lasts 2 sec longer for each Obliterate and Frostscythe critical strike during Pillar of Frost. Passive, no gameplay change
Latent Chill: Frost Strike deals additional damage if you have at least 3 empty runes. Passive, no gameplay change
Frostwhelp's Indignation: Pillar of Frost summons a Frostwhelp who breathes on all enemies within 20 yards in front of you for 2160 Frost damage. Each unique enemy hit by Frostwhelp's Indignation grants you 35 Mastery for 15 sec, up to 175.Passive, no gameplay change apart from positioning once every minute

Ill have to do more research into deathknights but mage, warriors, and shamans have choice. I truly feel bad for you. Heed my call increases burst and your probably want to time it with trinket procs. There also gut ripper that you want to save haste procs at low hp for in pvp. You'd want to try to time honor focus around your teammates cooldowns but yea dks got hoed.

Fire mages have away to gift crit when they pyroblast that fucking dope.

[Elestia]

Talents every 15 levels and now not at all definitely sucks.

Yes, old trees were supposed to reward you with unlocks for every level earned. Why can't this still be the case?

What might make sense would be to continue talents after level 60. Levels 1-60 can be unlocking class abilities. 60-120 can be for talents.


So 60 points of progress. Imo talent trees are necessary for dud classes like Shaman, where most of the deficiencies in class design can be mitigated.

[Cracka_Bob]

What about some sort of hybrid between both talent systems? So let's say you have the original trees back except this time it's filled with passives and maybe a minor proc or two, but then when you spend a certain amount of points, you unlock a choice between 2 or 3 abilities or major rotational procs. The choices would be based on the tree that unlocked them. For simplicity, let's say you unlock a new choice after every 10 points within a tree. So if I level up my (low level) Warrior and I have my talents as 5/11/23, that means I wouldn't unlock any Arms talent choices, but I get the passives of whatever I spent the points in. I get 1 choice from Fury (plus the passives), and then I get 2 choices from Prot. One catch is that the system "forces" you into a specialization based on the number of points you have in a tree (in this example, I would be Prot), but if I had an equal number of points in 2 of the trees, the system would not allow me to put the final point until one of the trees is greater than the others. In other words, I cannot have 5/17/17, but I can have 5/16/18 or 5/18/16

[Kazlofski]

I miss the old tree so much...

The choices you make nowadays aren't even fun. On this boss I switch to this ability, on that boss I go back to the usual ability.
I'd rather stick with "cookie cutter" builds because it made leveling so much more fun and rewarding, been ages since I had the will to level any character.
That's why I really enjoyed this system in Legion, was so much fun for me personally.

[NoiseTank13]

As a raid leader I fucking hated those hybrid spec fuckers so much

dead weight assholes who have the temerity to go 'im special' and me going 'specially good at being dead weight'

as MUCH as I would love more customization and control of a character, (someone mentioned path of exile, lmao that would be amazing) but Blizzard has shown, time and time again, they are only interested in easy balancing for minimal work. it's easier to nerf one talent on a tier then have to go through the whole rigor moro of give and take, with the consequence of everyone feeling sort of the same

[salate]

Still dont understand why 5 points of useless critchance is a choice? hybrids are fun and cool, until you meet meta stuff and sit without a raidspot. still remembet how op masteries were

[Xath]

Yeah, the choice of having the wrong or the right setup maybe.
Currently you need to spec for the situation unlike befor when you more or less just had one cookie cutter spec that did it all.

You're remembering it wrong.

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Then why have talents at all?

Uh if you are switching talents constantly there is no point to them talents weren't meant to be constantly switched they were part of building your character. You were a specific spec of your class not just your class.

[Eapoe]

Do people not understand why the old talent system won’t work anymore? At this point we’d have every point full, to compensate Blizz would have to make new abilities/damage/healing modifiers at every turn to compensate. This would lead to so much button bloat and/or uninteresting % increases and such a huge imbalance between specs way more dramatic than we have now.
The old talent system was nixed for a reason. To want it back is to not understand this simple example of one of the reasons it was probably removed in favor of what they do now.
I understand people liked the old system, but it was flawed heavily when it comes to game life.

[rohoz]

Do people not understand why the old talent system won’t work anymore? At this point we’d have every point full, to compensate Blizz would have to make new abilities/damage/healing modifiers at every turn to compensate. This would lead to so much button bloat and/or uninteresting % increases and such a huge imbalance between specs way more dramatic than we have now.
The old talent system was nixed for a reason. To want it back is to not understand this simple example of one of the reasons it was probably removed in favor of what they do now.
I understand people liked the old system, but it was flawed heavily when it comes to game life.

people are stupid and drunk on nostalgia, you're wasting your time

[Aggrophobic]

Uh if you are switching talents constantly there is no point to them talents weren't meant to be constantly switched they were part of building your character. You were a specific spec of your class not just your class.

That makes no sense at all.

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there was plenty of choice. the new class is pretty boring >>> there's no real denying that

No, there was not.

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There's no choice in the new system either.

Yes, there is.

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Warlocks, as an example, in Vanilla (1.12) had a large variety of specs that excelled in different circumstances and had different gear requirements. Two of those specs were extremely raid viable, two were very strong PVP specs with vastly different playstyles, and there were a number of strong farming specs.

So no, it really wasn't about right/wrong.

Actaully, not really.

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HOW does that make the new system better though? There is no choice now either.

In all forms and shape, the old talent system is the same as the new one except they removed all the 1/2/3/4/5% X filler talents,a nd gave us some boring "choices".


I actually found the older more fun as I leveled, while the new one is better at max level.

As you leveled, maybe but that is a very small part of the game and it makes no sense designing a system around leveling. The current system is the same but easier to use, easier to set up and actually gives you reasosn to respec when the fight needs it. The old one was just worse.

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Let's not pretend the new system has choice.

But it does.