If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[LionSinMaikeru]

The old trees had pretty much one very specific build that everyone would copy to min/max. There was nothing special about them. There were builds that were sub par and playable and one that was tried and tested to be the best. The majority took the latter.


It doesnt change how you play though. You play the exact same just you take a little less damage. And if everyone who wants to be good takes the same exact talents then how is it customized and not cookie cutter? (hint its not customized)

Once again, that's not true. People did divert. By your logic the new system isn't customized either because everyone goes online and copies it. There's just much less to copy. There will always be an optimal spec for a specific situation.

[Big Thanks]

It doesnt change how you play though. You play the exact same just you take a little less damage. And if everyone who wants to be good takes the same exact talents then how is it customized and not cookie cutter? (hint its not customized)

Sure, i agree they may not be as interesting as game changing talents.
But they are still customization...and game breaking in some cases even.

[Traveler Voltin]

I was on my healer in TBC and did once or twice, and guess what? I did not play with those people. Because they were tryhards. I actually kept track of them and they didn't complete any of the top level content despite gunning for everyone in their guild to have "the best possible spec" because that is subjective.

I ended up joining an amazing guild who allowed me to do the spec I was comfortable with and I got farther with them. And before you claim carry, I often performed better than other healers who had the "optimal" spec.

The optimal spec only mattered if you were aiming for progression and doing content as soon as it came out or in a top % guild. Otherwise? It didn't matter. Fights differed and no spec was good on every fight - and no spec was good for every occasion.

so in other words you are lying.

- - - Updated - - -

Most of the people in favor of the old system like the amount of choices given then, that doesn't mean they raided with a bad spec though. Either system you look at has choices, they are just more limited these days. And either system you look at still has a top cookie cutter spec. There are and were plenty of people out there who are/were fine with never seeing the top of the meters or being in the best raid guild available.

It isn't any persons right to tell another person they can't have fun with their class. If your idea of fun is just playing your class the way you want to, you will find like minded people and have your fun. If your idea of fun is being a min-maxer, then you will find like minded people and go have fun. Everyone has a different cup of tea, and as long as that person likes their own then that is what should matter. That being said, no one posting in this thread is right or wrong. They are simply opinions.

there was no choice. there is never choice.

[LionSinMaikeru]

so in other words you are lying.

No I'm not? But you're free to have your opinion.

[Traveler Voltin]

No I'm not? But you're free to have your opinion.

either you are lying or the rest of your team sucked.

[Vampyrr]

Once again, that's not true. People did divert. By your logic the new system isn't customized either because everyone goes online and copies it. There's just much less to copy. There will always be an optimal spec for a specific situation.

Yes people did divert but they were the SUBSTANTIAL minority. The vast majority of raiders/pvpers all used the same standardized builds with maybe 1-2 talents different. The same as it is today. If you give options there will be one build that will outperform others and most everyone will use it regardless of what is there. I dont need 60+ talent points for a build that I copy off a theorycrafter when I can do the same with 7. More is NOT always better

[Triceron]

As critical as people are about the lack of choice in the old talent system and being cookie cutter...

The problem with the system is everything is cookie cutter, down to the choice of class that is optimal for any given fight or raid. It's just that we allow deviances in being less-than-optimal for more broader aspects of the game. But when it comes to personal customization, the focus seems to be that using an optimal build is a must, when the power gains out of an optimal build vs suboptimal build might deviate less than upgrading a tier piece. It's all a matter of perception.

What should matter are systems being fun. If you don't find 1% crit fun, then that's fine to bring up. What I don't think is substantial is simply saying talents are cookie cutter. What needs to be understood is that the old talent system wasn't just a bunch of abilities and passives to choose from, it was what defined your Specialization and Role. The equivalent with the new system is your choice of Specialization; a simplified form of being cookie cutter. Every Ret Paladin plays the same with the new talents being the only thing that differentiates you from the next guy; and honestly I don't think those talents are enough to really make you feel like you've customized your character.

A part of that problem is that there is no investment into the talents. You just pick one out of 3. You didn't really earn it, and so what you get is no different than having a different type of 'Fireball' as a Warlock than a Mage. It doesn't feel like you made a choice to go down a route with a particular playstyle, it feels more like they're part of the package for picking a 'Destruction Warlock' instead of 'Fire Mage'. The old talent system would vary your playability greatly by going down a different path or investing into a different Spec entirely. You could go full Fire and focus on all its synergies, or invest a few points in Arcane to help Mana management, or even go hybrid into Frost for some utility. The system has more depth than simply picking 1/3 multiple times down a set tree.

[Sunderella]

Old talent trees were better. In fact Cata talent trees were the best

[threads]

i love the old trees. actually felt like leveling progressed your char. remember how pumped i was in wrath when i finally got chimera shot at the end of the MM tree.

[LionSinMaikeru]

either you are lying or the rest of your team sucked.

Or maybe I was just better at healing than they were? Specs aren't the only thing that matters here. Personal skill is a factor, too.

Yes people did divert but they were the SUBSTANTIAL minority. The vast majority of raiders/pvpers all used the same standardized builds with maybe 1-2 talents different. The same as it is today. If you give options there will be one build that will outperform others and most everyone will use it regardless of what is there. I dont need 60+ talent points for a build that I copy off a theorycrafter when I can do the same with 7. More is NOT always better

Exactly, it's the same as it is today...except back then you had more customization. Which is my point. More is not always better, true, but back then more is better because your characters actually had depth.

[The Stormbringer]

Its horrific, and its one of the reasons why the player base isnt supporting the blizz development team the way they used to. it doesnt need to be like Path of Exile, just in depth enough to feel like our character is our own not some cookie cutter copy of who ever is leading the ranks

Have you seen Path of Exile? The two can't even compare. Even with three specs (or four for Druid), this sort of style/system would be muuuuch smaller, more compact, and efficient. Not to mention easier to understand.

Voted somewhere inbetween, but new + more abilities/passives would work too, I think.

[tehdef]

Rofl, this "example" tree is literally the most bloated thing I've ever seen.

You've basically said that you not only want to combine the most bloated talent treat I've ever seen, with a bunch of Legion artifacts weapon abilities (which are many of the abilities you shown here).

IDK, I don't think I've seen a more terrible idea. People will just game the system to find the max DPS build, but at least with the current system, sometimes you are fine with losing some DPS to just run a passive RNG talent, instead of an active talent. Also, there are still a lot of talents, and it forces you to make choices based on your style, and need because the other choices in line provide similar but different executions of the same need.

Talent trees are just a power creep waiting to happen.

[Noxina]

Thoughts? There was no choice and the new system is better.

HOW does that make the new system better though? There is no choice now either.

In all forms and shape, the old talent system is the same as the new one except they removed all the 1/2/3/4/5% X filler talents,a nd gave us some boring "choices".


I actually found the older more fun as I leveled, while the new one is better at max level.

[rohoz]

The old trees had pretty much one very specific build that everyone would copy to min/max. There was nothing special about them. There were builds that were sub par and playable and one that was tried and tested to be the best. The majority took the latter.

- - - Updated - - -



It doesnt change how you play though. You play the exact same just you take a little less damage. And if everyone who wants to be good takes the same exact talents then how is it customized and not cookie cutter? (hint its not customized)

he does a lot less damage too, rofl

[BarosanuNr1]

Why not both? Take the old talent trees and add the current ones where the old glyphs used to be (like the glyphs that used to change how your abilities worked).

[Paperfox]

One thing about the old talent trees is that they allowed you to pick a sub-optimal build.

[Big Thanks]

Raw stats are also customization

full Armor Pen geming was nerfed because it was OP
Dodge rating was nerfed because rogues could have insane avoidance and tank bosses
Full geming stamina made the rogue spell Recuperate overpowered. Both the spell and glyph were nerfed.

Raw stats are also good customization and sometimes gamebreaking
Gameplay changing talents are considered better and cooler. Sure.
But lets not take a piss on raw stats just because of that

[Swalload]

Disagree. It is customization by the very definition of the word. On a Priest, +5% critical chance with holy spells is +5% more than a Shadow Priest would have. Or a Holy Priest that did not want that would have. Having 6 choices (some of which don't matter) is barely customization. You cannot drastically modify your character as you could back in the day. Plain and simple.

- - - Updated - - -



"factually" can you back that up? How do you factually measure customization? Lol. The current system provides a false sense of customization because everything you need is already baked into your spec and your choices are empty and do not matter. I can literally close my eyes and blind pick stuff and still do fine. How is that an example of good customization or actual choices? They're not.

And not true at all. Yes, some people went to ElitistJerks and got what was told to them was the best spec, but many people did whatever they felt best with and what felt right for their character. There are many different paths in the game, raiding is only one of them and most people didn't even get to raid even with "most optimal" specs.

But back then there were so many creative specs possible. Today as you said yourself, there's only two. How is that not a fake sense of customization? You contradict yourself.

when it comes down to it: the new spec isn't any better than the old one when it comes to cookie cutter. Only difference is we get less choices.

First of all, the game is so easy that you could put points anywhere and still get shit done, this is true for every single point of the game from release up to this day. Back then it felt more important because they put spec defining abilities in the talent tree, like Shadowform and shits.The decision of putting important abilities in the talents is not part of the talent system. The talent system is only HOW PLAYERS ARE ALLOWED TO ALOCATE SKILL POINTS REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE TALENTS ARE. You could take todays talents and put them in the old talent system, people would be unhappy because it would feel like shit because the talents are what's important. Put the important class abilities in the current talent build and people will find the same fun they had before, because the talent system is near irrelevant.

We don't use the talent system in the gameplay, we use the talents themselves. The problem is that when the system changed they also changed the talents, and people with no knowledge of design (pretty much everyone who plays WoW) simply thought it's all the same thing. It's 2 completely different things.

I don't see where this idea that there was a lot of creative specs before came from. I played around with every talent and every single time it was extremely obvious what was best and what was less efficient. That hasn't changed today, you can still do a "more creative" spec and still not be as efficient, just like it was before. There's no difference. The creative specs before were not as good, and really, all specs are just putting points in things you have in your face, none of them are more creative than an another. "Creative" is just a perspective against popular build, but the popular build were just as creative as any other build, they became popular because there's a tooltip that tells you what's better. People read, they know, they make their choice, so most people end up with the same thing because the options are not really varied. You had good options and bad options, just like today. And the nature of the game allows people with the bad options to get shit done anyway.

Customization should determine what you do, not the spec. I mean even back then you were forced to put a certain amount of points in your spec before putting points in another page, what's the fucking point?It forced people to take the obvious few point that were MADE to help their specs, these points were more often than not entirely avoided when going in that spec because they were made for other specs. It's ridiculous. It's what I call a fake sense of customization. It makes the players think they're smart for putting points somewhere else as if they found the secret to beating the game. Everybody did that, everybody took the same obvious options, no one was creative.

The old talent system was shit, the talents were shit too, it's different today but it's still shit, I'm not comparing them saying one is good and one is bad, they both suck lol.

[wilster]

One thing about the old talent trees is that they allowed you to pick a sub-optimal build.

Well truth be told you can still pick a sub-optimal build, you just have less ways to achieve that.

[Big Thanks]

First of all, the game is so easy that you could put points anywhere and still get shit done, this is true for every single point of the game from release up to this day. Back then it felt more important because they put spec defining abilities in the talent tree, like Shadowform and shits.The decision of putting important abilities in the talents is not part of the talent system. The talent system is only HOW PLAYERS ARE ALLOWED TO ALOCATE SKILL POINTS REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE TALENTS ARE. You could take todays talents and put them in the old talent system, people would be unhappy because it would feel like shit because the talents are what's important. Put the important class abilities in the current talent build and people will find the same fun they had before, because the talent system is near irrelevant.

We don't use the talent system in the gameplay, we use the talents themselves. The problem is that when the system changed they also changed the talents, and people with no knowledge of design (pretty much everyone who plays WoW) simply thought it's all the same thing. It's 2 completely different things.

I don't see where this idea that there was a lot of creative specs before came from. I played around with every talent and every single time it was extremely obvious what was best and what was less efficient. That hasn't changed today, you can still do a "more creative" spec and still not be as efficient, just like it was before. There's no difference. The creative specs before were not as good, and really, all specs are just putting points in things you have in your face, none of them are more creative than an another. "Creative" is just a perspective against popular build, but the popular build were just as creative as any other build, they became popular because there's a tooltip that tells you what's better. People read, they know, they make their choice, so most people end up with the same thing because the options are not really varied. You had good options and bad options, just like today. And the nature of the game allows people with the bad options to get shit done anyway.

Customization should determine what you do, not the spec. I mean even back then you were forced to put a certain amount of points in your spec before putting points in another page, what's the fucking point?It forced people to take the obvious few point that were MADE to help their specs, these points were more often than not entirely avoided when going in that spec because they were made for other specs. It's ridiculous. It's what I call a fake sense of customization. It makes the players think they're smart for putting points somewhere else as if they found the secret to beating the game. Everybody did that, everybody took the same obvious options, no one was creative.

The old talent system was shit, the talents were shit too, it's different today but it's still shit, I'm not comparing them saying one is good and one is bad, they both suck lol.

Tell us then.

What is a good talent system?

The first thing im going to disagree with you is that a better talent system doesnt have raw stat changes.
No stamina buffs
No armor pen buffs
No haste buffs
No avoidance buffs

Just simply gameplay changing talents.

IMO a good talent system needs both.