Elune herself? Seriously? Elune is much, much more powerful than Archimonde, she can single-handedly defeat all the others, how, under this condition, can people not vote for night elves?
Elune herself? Seriously? Elune is much, much more powerful than Archimonde, she can single-handedly defeat all the others, how, under this condition, can people not vote for night elves?
They have 2 Guardians of Tirisfal on their side (at least, if they have all 4+ then it's no contest at all), yeah, I'm still giving it to them.
The battlefield is one valley, they don't need to concern themselves with localized environmental damage... The blight can be controlled for the duration of the fight, we know this, therefore it doesn't matter.actually it should be a point of concern, unless you're just going to ignore reinforcement and view each thing as a winner take all and damn the outcome. If the after events are to be considered human are possibly the most frail and easily subdued by simply environmental concerns.... having enough supplies and personnel to take into the next fight is also a major point of contention. Not every faction can employ the method of attack to throw bodies into the meatgrinder and expect a positive outcome.
by "reinforcement" I assume yo mean forsaken rezzing new people, problem is they need to kill people and then secure the ground they are on, and protect the Valkyr while they do the rezzing... You really think the Guardians are gonna let them do that? This isn't a war of nations, it's one localized battle, they aren't gonna have time for that shit mid fight.
They don't need to be, read the rules outlined by the OP, this is one battle in one local area.I'm not going to argue the power of a guardian, i'm going to argue the limitation that there are guardians numbering less than 5 and they can't be everywhere at once.
No, they are unquestionably on the level of "delete half the opponent's pieces".If we're talking chess, they're unquestionably on the level of "queen" pieces on the board.
Not better enough.That said, the forsaken "pawn" pieces are just plain better than the "pawns" the humans can fall back on.
Only if they can actually reclaim the bodies, which as I've explained above, they aren't gonna have time for that.and death among personnel for undead is about teh same as simply going back to wake up the fallen again.... unless the bodies are utterly destroyed, that is, there is literally nothing in the lore preventing repeat raising of undead. And if you can't bring back that specific entity or soul, the body can still be animated for another unit.
See above.go ahead, unless it's specifically a strain that melts flesh and bone and taints the land for generations.... it's just the equivalent of a short nap for the forces caught unless you're also able to wipe out other the source of raising
That was the Plague, which the Forsaken have very specifically never been able to replicate.do remember how stratholme fell from the presence of a disease and not because a valkyr/necromancer went in raising everyone, those bodies got back up after they fell.
Barely, and a much, much, much smaller starting force, which means it wouldn't be too far fetched for them to be wiped out entirely before they can even begin the reinforcement process, when faced with Guardians.So really, forsaken got:
better rank and file military
How do you figure?better management of personnel
Not even close, their numbers are far far fewer.roughly the same mage support
By a nearly incalculable amount.worse hero unit
Why, because of the Blight? we've been over this like a broken record.better specialists
better tech support
Final line of defense... lol, yeah, because they are gonna WAIT to use their best shit.if it's human vs undead the final line for human defense is teh guardian and paladin support cause they're behind everywhere else.
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The forsaken aren't a race, they are a faction.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
they wouldn't have all of them... some of those are elves.
then we are discussiing to VERY different fights. I'm thinking full all out war across the entire world not some simple skirmish in a valley. When supply lines, logistics, marching orders and such come into play... the undead have way too many advantages to be ignored and pointless engagements with ecxess casualties just serve to add to the undead sides rank and file.
Yes in your version of a single valley, your idea of guardian superiority would work. In my larger scope all out war, not so much.
That's teh thing, various sources of undead raising hasn't all required specific sources of death or a necromancer present. Simply having the living succumb to death by any means (exhaustion, infighting, disease, starvation, etc)
very well... but not that it means everyone at once, which means you have your guardians fighting elven guardians and being otherwise occupied with such nuisances as draenei magictech. That added mayhem lets such chaos as raising dead of any source possible
you keep saying this, but it seems every nation has this between warlocks that litterally ripped a planet apart, inventions that level cities or rip reality or render the life of a region unto nothing.
i reiterate, unflinching, unfeeling, immediately acts upon orders, no sleep, no eating, no shitting, no wasted time, no breathing.... and this is the foot soldier. no need to worry about injuries unless it renders the unit non-functioning. This is unquestionable superior if we're looking at just rank and file military regiments.
yes... though honestly any bodies dropping might be getting reanimated just being nearby.
forsaken forces were using it in the andorhal events during cataclysm
not as small as you'd think. They're either second or third largest depending on the numbers for ironforge considering they're a a chunk of what was lost when the seven kingdoms were going to shit. The key thing is the raising portion. if that's allowed to take place, they just start pulling from whoever they run into. Be it human, draenei, elf, dwarf etc.
the whole cult of personality and unwavering devotion to their dark lady. Not like humans who get swayed by whoever gives them more benefits.
they're as broken as blight is but blight is able to be deployed by more than 5 units.
actually you keep saying blight. My broken record is "unthinking, unfeeling, monsters that never tire, never eat, pursue their target till it dies"
But yeah, forsaken have their own line of tech they use while humans fall back on dwarven and gnome support in their military ranks. If dwarves and gnomes are off on their own... there goes the mighty human side tech as we've seen
edit: and I said pallies were their final line because that was the only unit capable of really answering the issue of the undead foot soldiers besides the super powered guardians.
note I have yet to even bring up the banshees who's sole reason for existing seems to be to posess people and turn them against their own. incorporeal bitches who pass through walls and seemingly render themselves immune to magic....
Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2019-01-22 at 06:26 AM.
Only one of the guardians we know of was not full human, Alodi, and he was a half human, which means he would either be there (2 copies of him, one fighting for Humans and one for High Elves) or not, but that still leaves 3, at least... The 4 named are just the ones we know about.
Then you shouldn't be in this thread, follow the rules outlined in the OP or there is no point in posting.then we are discussiing to VERY different fights. I'm thinking full all out war across the entire world not some simple skirmish in a valley.
Your larger scope doesn't matter because it's off topic.Yes in your version of a single valley, your idea of guardian superiority would work. In my larger scope all out war, not so much.
None of those are available to the Forsaken, the only way they have to raise undead are Valkyr and maybe some necromancers to raise mindless ones...That's teh thing, various sources of undead raising hasn't all required specific sources of death or a necromancer present. Simply having the living succumb to death by any means (exhaustion, infighting, disease, starvation, etc)
And the undead woudl be dealing with the same shit, without guardians on their side, with fewer numbers, and every force they are facing have mages to counteract the Blight with frost spells.very well... but not that it means everyone at once, which means you have your guardians fighting elven guardians and being otherwise occupied with such nuisances as draenei magictech. That added mayhem lets such chaos as raising dead of any source possible
Which were only accomplished through very, very lengthy rituals, none of which could be performed in this kind of fight, they simply wouldn't have the time.you keep saying this, but it seems every nation has this between warlocks that litterally ripped a planet apart
all of which require physical delivery... A lot more time and effort than just casting a spell.inventions that level cities or rip reality or render the life of a region unto nothing.
And yet in the lore their combat ability has not really been shown to be superior because of it.i reiterate, unflinching, unfeeling, immediately acts upon orders, no sleep, no eating, no shitting, no wasted time, no breathing.... and this is the foot soldier. no need to worry about injuries unless it renders the unit non-functioning. This is unquestionable superior if we're looking at just rank and file military regiments.
I'm gonna need a source on that. But it doesn't matter, the OP specified blight, not plague.forsaken forces were using it in the andorhal events during cataclysm
Assuming they have time.not as small as you'd think. They're either second or third largest depending on the numbers for ironforge considering they're a a chunk of what was lost when the seven kingdoms were going to shit. The key thing is the raising portion. if that's allowed to take place, they just start pulling from whoever they run into. Be it human, draenei, elf, dwarf etc.
None of that matters in this scenario.Not like humans who get swayed by whoever gives them more benefits.
They are far, far more broken than Blight, by orders of magnitude.they're as broken as blight is but blight is able to be deployed by more than 5 units.
Let me put this into perspective for you.
Deathwing was afraid of Medivh, despite Medivh being weaker than his predecessors due to spending much of his power constantly trying to resist Sargeras' influence.
When the Gurubashi attacked Stormwind with an army so massive they were quickly winning an assault on a fortified Stormwind, while Stormwind was garrisoned by all of the kingdom's combined military, Medivh decimated that entire army, by himself, without the mastery or control over his power that his predecessors had.
No, you've been bringing it up a lot, and you're the one who started bringing it up as if it were some unstoppable force.actually you keep saying blight.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-22 at 08:18 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
The scourge are a separate faction.
His use of Draenei instead of Eredar is likely because he, like most people, doesn't realize they went by a different name before... Everyone knows the Forsaken and Scourge aren't the same faction.
Go by that the OP has stated, in the listing for Draenei they clearly meant Eredar by listing them as pre-legion corruption on Argus... And when they said Forsaken they listed things that clearly meant post split with the Scourge.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-22 at 07:33 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
You must have missed the part where he includes others who are a "separate faction" when he includes the height of the Kaldorei, or the Eredar before Legion. The height of the Kaldorei and Eredar include many people who are in different factions today. Naga, Nightborne, Eredar demons(the majority of the race) so why wouldn't the Scourge be included since at one point the Forsaken members were apart of the Scourge?
And yet this is not what the OP's scenario is about. It's the same races, height of their power, fighting other races at the height of their power. Also the Forsaken were apart of the Scourge at one time...Everyone knows the Forsaken and Scourge aren't the same faction.
And yet we're still including post split Eredar... post split Kaldorei... post split Trolls... Post split Humans... post split OrcsAnd when they said Forsaken they listed things that clearly meant post split with the Scourge.
because the Op specified otherwise.
The forsaken are not, and have never been, a race... They are a faction of several races that are cursed with undeath.And yet this is not what the OP's scenario is about. It's the same races, height of their power, fighting other races at the height of their power. Also the Forsaken were apart of the Scourge at one time...
Adhere to the scenario presented by the OP and stay on topic.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-22 at 08:02 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Team draenei in this setting is extremely unbalanced. like jesus, the eredar? kil jaeden? velen? archimonde?
Those 3 are monsters they win no doubt.
Team human seems to be really strong here,like if demigod tier mages aren't enough then what about aegwynn, the most powerful mortal in the history of azeroth.
The orcs have no chance versus two guardians of tirisfal not even guldan or thrall.
the kaldorei empire is also another strong contender. thanks to azshara, the current most powerful mortal in azeroth,with tyrande and malfurion.
So i would say
Eredar>Kaldorei>humans>orcs>trolls every other one is pure thrash. like forsakens would be annihilated by paladins and mages would negate the blight in a second they stand no chance and neither the belfs considering that they descend from the kaldorei.
And they got owned by Tiki Masks in Drustvar. They might've fight demons on various planes but they were not prepared for THAT.
Anyway chill, I got corrected because I didn't read that OP actually meant entire pre-corrupted eredar. This is why I though he meant regular draenei + Lightforged.
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It was OP's mistake. Because by saying Draenei it already means the exiled part from eredar population. If he said "pre-corruped eredar" it would make a change. Saying draenei already means that we only take into consideration the Velen's refugees and Lightforged.
I miss Mists of Pandaria
seems like a real bullshit oversight when looking at the list giving Draenei pre-draenei numbers/tech and post draenei allegience to Naaru. but I digress. I assumed blight meant all it's incarnations due to their repeated study of the original plague and various strains shown throughout the storyline ranging from the caustic mess used a wrathgate, explosive form used on murlocs in fenric isle, what was used in gilneas that couldn't really kill worgen, the strain used in stormhiem that apparently mutated living things into volatile monstrosities. Hell why not argue their entire tech tree built of the work of the apothecary business that is responsible for their blight creation. I mean Mr. "humans have guardians so they win!" when that is the work of gnomes and elves and humans all imbuing their power into a single being.
true but you seem to think magic is an instant win when the guardian is literally the only real magic powerhouse humans have without pointing out bullshit human potential. Draenei, elves (blood and night), and gnomes all have magisters on par with or more knowledgable (not hard when the average age among the species predates the entire civilization of mankind by a good millenia or 6
yeah we only just have to have a story about every other greedy person trying to become a lich for the benefits of undeath like every 4th quest or so. Pepper a zone with another nigh indesctructible undead being who hangs on because no one destroyed his final left pinky toe through which he still remained grounded and sentient
Latent Disease is the quest where they gather samples of plague material from wildlife in WPL. The material gathered is then turned into drums and deployed against living farmers in the region.
I discussed it because you discussed it and it was referenced as something they have. You said the guardian could handle it and I started off saying the mages could disperse it after it was used and not out right counter it.
If you want to call me out for being a broken record it's on assuming that presence of blight meant more than just 'blight' alone and including anything shown for building, transporting, deliverying (like catapults, specialized containers, blight throwers, etc), protective gear, and any research that was involved with the acquisition and utilization of said blight.... and my repeat mentions of the vague benefits of undeath (tireless, emotionless, murder beings that never need to eat or breath and any notion of fuel is handwaved away because 'reasons'.
Now I note you keep exalting magic to such a degree, but sort of just glossed over the mention of near magic immune incorporeal beings that possess people as an available counter to your historically possessed gnome/elf empowered mages.
It does, the Blight and the Plague are two different things, the Forsaken were trying to replicate the Plague, which they never had, and came up with something entirely different in the process, that thing was named Blight. It has a different name for a reason.
Take it up with the OP, I didn't make the rules of the scenario.I mean Mr. "humans have guardians so they win!" when that is the work of gnomes and elves and humans all imbuing their power into a single being.
If you don't like the lore, take it up with Blizzard. You don't get to arbitrarily declare their magical abilities non-canon, that's not within your rights, because you don't own the IP.true but you seem to think magic is an instant win when the guardian is literally the only real magic powerhouse humans have without pointing out bullshit human potential.
And even if you DID want to declare their magical abilities non-canon you'd be nutering every Forsaken mage as well, because, surprise surprise, 99% of them are humans.
Never dying of old age is a strong motivator.yeah we only just have to have a story about every other greedy person trying to become a lich for the benefits of undeath
Are you trying to insinuate that every undead has the power to self regenerate like a Lich does? They don't, and becoming a Lich is not something just anyone can go do.like every 4th quest or so. Pepper a zone with another nigh indesctructible undead being who hangs on because no one destroyed his final left pinky toe through which he still remained grounded and sentient
Tissue samples from things infected with the plague =/= the plague.Latent Disease is the quest where they gather samples of plague material from wildlife in WPL. The material gathered is then turned into drums and deployed against living farmers in the region.
You brought it up first.I discussed it because you discussed it
There are quests in the game right at this very moment in BFA where the Blight is neutralized with fire before deployment, you really think beings as powerful as the guardians wouldn't be able to prevent it's deployment? Those catapults don't have that much range.and not out right counter it.
Yes, because you keep asusming, despite beiong told repeatedly, that this is a total war scenario, it's not, it's a single battle, 90% of those benefits are irrelevant here.handwaved away because 'reasons'.
It is specifically stated that they can only maintain that immunity for a very short time.Now I note you keep exalting magic to such a degree, but sort of just glossed over the mention of near magic immune incorporeal beings
Which requires physical contact, against the ultimate Mary Sue of the Warcraft universe.that possess people
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-23 at 01:54 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
to include any products use in the production and research.
interesting choice of argument there. You think your option is such an instant win over literal gods
I think this argument is best directed at you since you seem to forget that without gnome/dwarf support humans are just a foot infantry with a shitty cavalry and magister support... Why am I saying this? because Gnomes and dwarves aren't fighting alongside humans in this scenario.
they can be patched up or transfer to new bodies.... be it surgically attaching body parts together (Before the storm or abominations) or some sort of soul transfer (varies for plot and individuals in question), some seem to be able mend broken bodies magically in a fashion not unlike typical holy healing. The main thing is that literally ANY undead can take grievous bodily harm far above and beyond what mortal flesh can take AND STILL FIGHT. Shock from blood loss? not an issue. Lost a limb? not an issue... head removed? may need some attention but might not put one's arms and legs out of a fight.
samples from beings infected with plague confirmed, labs and research material is in their ball park as evident from the multitude of strains of blight
as it was listed as available to forsaken and my interpretation is the numbers game Blight on top of better groudn troops and pulling reinforcements from the fallen as well as having the most bullshit infantry modifier (blight throwers) available for deployment? yeah. the human nations that fell to scourge arguably outnumber the orcs, the troll factions outside zandalari, gnomes and elves... my argument wasn't that the BLIGHT was the OP angle it was the undead troops forming their military. Yuo then chimed in that a guardian could counter blight because Jaina did so in battle for lordaeron.... she did such a good job countering the already successful blight dispersal that literally broke the entire alliance fighting force paladins, mages and all.
considering all it takes to take one down is a knife and a bit of arrogance? Or a friendly face with said knife... you know, the more I look at this the better those Banshee seem for countering guardians. Possess someone, walk in. #welcometostabtown.
O I'm sorry I don't agree with your bullshit "humans get copies of unique unit that can only exist one at a time and is a literal I win at everything because I say so" argument. Mr. "blight fails cause guardians counter it".... like for real and you want to call others out for being broken records (on subjects they aren't even repeating except when responding about because it keeps getting brought up)
doesn't need to be long when you just need to run up and melt someone's mind with sonic vibration... or jump into a body
not a hard feat for beings that traverse reality like it's not there.
Just a quick head count... 4 canon guardians? none with true sight. at least 2 have been possessed and one of whom didn't know till too late.
I think your insta win idea is very poor and you're better off backing the shiny chime gods who turn vaguely less than good an eat universes.
No. They did not have the Plague.
Interesting choice of argument? I'm not the one trying to change the rules of the scenario, take it up with the OP.interesting choice of argument there.
The only literal god on the field is Elune, and we have exactly 0 information as to how strong she may or may not be. I can't make a call on her with no information, and even then I already said she would be the only reason the Night Elves would possibly win.literal gods
I haven't, you just keep thinking I have. Your assumption is incorrect.I think this argument is best directed at you since you seem to forget that without gnome/dwarf support humans are just a foot infantry with a shitty cavalry and magister support... Why am I saying this? because Gnomes and dwarves aren't fighting alongside humans in this scenario.
And "shitty" is an utterly incorrect way to describe Human cavalry units, which were regarded by even the Orcs to be extremely formidable and deadly even to them during the first war (in which Stormwind had 0 support from any other nation, including Dwarves and Gnomes)
Their magister support is also far from shitty. You yourself called Elven and Draenei mages "mini guardians" and the lore specifically states that regular Human mages are just as strong as Elven mages.
None of that can be done quickly. Again, this is a single battle, not a prolonged war.they can be patched up or transfer to new bodies.... be it surgically attaching body parts together (Before the storm or abominations) or some sort of soul transfer (varies for plot and individuals in question)
Gonna need a source on that.head removed? may need some attention but might not put one's arms and legs out of a fight.
Having samples of the plague doesn't mean they can reproduce it, and in fact they can't, they've tried and failed every single time.samples from beings infected with plague confirmed, labs and research material is in their ball park as evident from the multitude of strains of blight
Not even remotely true, you know nothing of the lore if you think this. In the first and second wars the Horde rolled over everything south of Tirisfal, read Chronicle 2.the human nations that fell to scourge arguably outnumber the orcs, the troll factions outside zandalari, gnomes and elves..
Also, the blight is not the plague, again. The Scourge only accomplished what it did because it spread the plague to almost every city before the humans even knew it existed.
Yes, I'm sure the most powerful mages on the planet by several orders of magnitude would not notice the magical presence of the banshees. /sconsidering all it takes to take one down is a knife and a bit of arrogance? Or a friendly face with said knife... you know, the more I look at this the better those Banshee seem for countering guardians. Possess someone, walk in. #welcometostabtown.
It's not my argument. I didn't write the scenario, the OP did, and in case you haven't noticed I'm not the OP.O I'm sorry I don't agree with your bullshit "humans get copies of unique unit that can only exist one at a time and is a literal I win at everything because I say so" argument
If you have a problem with the scenario presented by the OP, that's too bad, that's the topic of the thread, you don't get to change it, if you want to make a different scenario go make your own thread. Stay on topic, or don't participate.
I gave you the counter, and you keep repeating the pre-counter arguyment as if I haven't already countered it, yes, you are the broken record.like for real and you want to call others out for being broken records (on subjects they aren't even repeating except when responding about because it keeps getting brought up)
It does when banshees are rather obvious, they'd be seen coming from a mile away.doesn't need to be long when you just need to run up and melt someone's mind with sonic vibration... or jump into a body.
Banshees are not shades, they don't have invisibility, they would be seen before they got in range to possess anything.not a hard feat for beings that traverse reality like it's not there.
Just a quick head count... 4 canon guardians? none with true sight. at least 2 have been possessed and one of whom didn't know till too late.
i think your understanding of this game's lore is very poor. No, I know it is.I think your insta win idea is very poor
If you can't stay on topic, I'm just going to put you on my ignore list, I have no interest of further discussion with someone who has to try to change the scenario of the thread to fit their argument. Stick to the scenario outlined by the OP, it is not yours to change. If you want to make your own scenario, make your own thread.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-23 at 04:26 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Nope, he specifies that these are races and will fight with their full power.What if the entire races fought each other?
The races will fight at their full power.
Forsaken
Doesn't matter, OP used them in Race fighting with full power, thus the OP is considering the Forsaken a race.The forsaken are not, and have never been, a race... They are a faction of several races that are cursed with undeath.
OP specified Forsaken, not Scourge, they did not say undead, they said Forsaken. If you think they have made a mistake, ask them for clarification, do not assume when all information provided, including details to what they have available (them having Blight, not Plague, the Scourge would have the Plague) says Forsaken.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-24 at 07:04 AM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Draenei.
and yet that's exactly what I was doing when you replied to me. But please, do take your own advice.If you think they have made a mistake, ask them for clarification
Go back to debating with others over who you think will win, I'll stick to how OP bent the rules for some and not others.His use of Draenei instead of Eredar is likely because he, like most people, doesn't realize they went by a different name before.
And then they immediately went on to specify additional things that widened the scope, they did not do that with the Forsaken, they specified nothing that widened the scope, they listed things that were unique to the forsaken.
No you weren't, the OP had given you their answer and you were just continuing to push the issue.and yet that's exactly what I was doing when you replied to me.
I don't need to, I'm not the one trying to change the parameters of OP's scenario.But please, do take your own advice.
The OP didn't bend the rules, the OP made the rules, nothing is bent if that's how they started out.I'll stick to how OP bent the rules for some and not others.
Last edited by Schattenlied; 2019-01-24 at 05:47 PM.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.