Baine vs Sylvanas

[Wildberry]

We have shitty story that owns the Horde now though. It won't get worse.

See:

It can always get worse. Case in point, Baine taking over.

At least this dumpsterfire is entertaining. The Baine-Anduin Unifaction is still the worst possible story.

Pretty much clawing the face to spite the nose.

I wonder if we'll see him in late 8.3 complaining about how Anduin just passed Warchief off to Baine and imposed no consequences on the Horde?

[Kaver]

A certain someone has obviously gained some now levels of awfulness and to spot the difference between them in terms of popularity let's see how some parts of the community see them both after the newly revealed treason of the sellout Bloodhoof leader. So who do you prefer over as part of your faction team red? I know I can't stop the guys in blue from voting too, but

If you add a description to a poll then that description shouldn’t be biased.

[Trassk]

In terms of likeability, Baine wins by miles. There isn't even anything salvageable in sylvanas' character anymore.

In terms of a fight, think sylvanas has one over on Baine since she's a more skilled combatant.

[Nathanyel]

As Dickman said Baine lost all credibility for reasoning when he did the same thing people accuse sylvanas of.

I didn't know Baine was a necromancer.

Yes, on their own, Baine's actions are questionable, but they pale in comparison to those of Sylvanas.
You employ whataboutism, equating single bad things to a whole army of literal skeletons in the closet battlefield.

[Super Dickmann]

I didn't know Baine was a necromancer.

Yes, on their own, Baine's actions are questionable, but they pale in comparison to those of Sylvanas.
You employ whataboutism, equating single bad things to a whole army of literal skeletons in the closet battlefield.

Baine's not done single bad things, he's been a detriment to his race for his entire tenure in ways I'm sure we'll go over as this thread continues since it's not like it's an easily exhaustible topic.

The reason Sylvanas raising the dead is wrong isn't because of its inherent moral character, it's that the Horde races, who practice ancestor worship not bringing it up is bad writing. Especially the orcs, who even when drunk on demon blood still looked on the defilement of their dead with a lot of dislike. From an out of setting perspective however, her actions are beneficial and we know for a fact would have won the Horde the fight if not for Jaina's appearance. Even then, the Horde troops themselves mention they were out of position, making clear that they weren't meant to be there and they were warned ahead of time to not be there when the Blight hits.

Baine by contrast, kills Horde troops to benefit the Alliance without engaging with them in any way, when he has engaged with quillboar and recommends engaging with the murderers of a girl's father over his corpse at his funeral. And we know it'd make no difference if they were tauren, since tauren who defend themselves get exiled. Or have the woman who attacked them tipped off so she can better prepare herself for the attack on her city and kill more tauren in the process.

And if the issue is their free will, then nothing quite takes away your free will like being dead and thus unable to exercise it.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas has betrayed everything the Horde stood for.

Considering that she isn't even technically the legitimate leader of the Horde, now that we know Vol'jin was deceived when he appointed her, coupled with her betraying the spirit of the Horde, and even broke the one rule the Forsaken hold most dear with Derek Proudmoore (no taking away someone's free will), Baine's "treason" is perfectly justified.

And, pray tell, which part of Horde law dictates that legitimacy of the Warchief rests on anything you listed? Sylvanas was acknowledged as the leader by the Horde and received an oath from its members. She is the Warchief and has all the legitimacy she needs.

The "spirit of the Horde" is a buzz word made by people who can't handle the fact that Thrall's Horde isn't the be all, end all of the Horde. No part of the Blood Oath has a clause "I swear an Oath to the Horde, but only to an arbitrarily selected time period of it and if the Horde changes that may not apply to me if I so fancy".

And conditioning someone is not taking away someone's free will. Conditioning someone through torture exists IRL. Somehow taking away one's will and turning them into a puppet does not. It's almost as if the two weren't the same.

Baine's treason not only doesn't warrant quotation marks, but it's not justified one bit. Because even if all you said was true (and none of it is), Baine didn't betray the Horde for the sake of the Horde. He betrayed the Horde for the sake of his human overlords, in this case the Proudmoores. And in doing so he killed actual Horde members.

"This person doesn't agree with me, they must be Alliance" is a really weak argument.

More like "this person has a 5873 post long history of shilling for the Alliance at every opportunity and making things up about the Horde in order to have an argument against it, which makes their claims they are betting for both factions equally are as believable as the claims of woke independents in Gen-OT".

The lore is the lore, if you don't like it, take it up with Blizzard, but you don't get to pick and choose what is canon, that's not your choice to make. Fact of the matter is that Sylvanas has done too many things that are not in line with the Horde's morals, and she has betrayed the trust of the Forsaken with how she treated Derek... A person's free will is the one thing the Forsaken say, above all others, that you don't fuck with, and she's gone and fucked with someone's free will.

OK then, quote the part of the lore that says Horde's morals are set in stone.

That's nice, but Baine has literally betrayed the Horde, even if you want to conveniently dismiss this bit with Sylvanas.

Poll-wise, in any "X vs. Baine" matchup, I'm going to vote X.

What if it was pre-BfA Baine vs BfA Baine poll?

The "treason" was for the greater good. Just because you use the word treason does not make Baine wrong.

Baine killing Horde soldiers for the benefit of Alliance members does make him wrong, however.

Needless to say, I think I'll side with the obvious option tyvm. It's not even about "alliance player vs horde player", it's more about "having a brain and moral values vs not". And I'm pretty sure many horde would agree with me.

Apparently letting the Alliance fuck the Horde over with no repercusions every time they feel like pulling another Stormheim constitutes "having a brain". Who'd have thought?

Everyone who turned on Garrosh is already a traitor to the Horde. In betraying Sylvanus, Baine and Saurfang are betraying a traitor and, thus, have become the most loyal of us all.

Except the Forsaken joined Vol'jin's rebellion only after Garrosh decided to kick almost everyone out and create his better True Horde with Blackrocks and Goblin hookers mercenaries.

[Wildberry]

What if it was pre-BfA Baine vs BfA Baine poll?

In a situation like this, there's nothing wrong with clicking "View Results" and just voting for whichever Baine has the least votes. Baines should be kept in near-parity to demonstrate the inherent loathsomeness of the character.

[Fetus Rex]

There is a difference with killing them on purpose by the blight. Raising them against their will is not a good thing.

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An undead elf.

There was no killing on purpose. It is a good thing.

[Mehrunes]

"I don't like it so it's not lore" really?

It's not lore because it's made up nonsense. Did you even read what they replied to there?

Yes, like another elf would make things better or fix the mess, i think we learn a lesson already hun?

So what do you propose? Is it by any chance an Orc? When we had Alliance appeaser Thrall and drooling retard Garrosh? How comes we haven't learned that lesson?

There is a difference with killing them on purpose by the blight. Raising them against their will is not a good thing.

They were going to die anyway. They were trapped between the wall and the Alliance and Alliance was making progress. You don't open the gates for your troops to retreat under those circumstances because you wouldn't be able to close them in time to stop the Alliance from breaching in. This way at least they tied the Alliance in combat and turned them into sitting ducks. Their sacrifice was not in vain and if it wasn't for Jaina ex machina, the Alliance would have been wiped out with that maneuver.

There's really nothing that can be said in Baine's defense. Not even the desperate flailing that "Oh, she killed Horde troops" is viable anymore, because Baine does the same, except he doesn't do it with their understanding and for visible tactical gain, but for no benefit other than freeing a PoW and covertly trafficking him to the Alliance. Not only is putting him in prison in this context completely justified, but it's in fact massively lenient. Any modern military would have a soldier who did this executed. Sadly, we have to make due with keeping him in prison for a patch. The Night of the Long Burger needs some work put into it.

Hey, that's not true. As I recall from another thread, an argument that can be made in Baine's defense is "If Baine was a completely different person he wouldn't suck anymore".

[Lorca]

I never liked Baine at all. And I did like and still like Sylvanas in some ways. Not that much anymore because they’re writing her too... crazy-head, and I think it fits more for her to be the power in the shadows than the frontwoman.

I could have vote Baine, as I see him fiting more the type of Horde warchief (not it that means killing Sylvanas, though), even if he’s always passive af, but knowing now that he’s killing fellow Horde members in order to free Proudmoore (haven’t seen the quest yet, though)... that’s, let’s say, kinda “disgusting”. He completely lost me with that one.

[Mehrunes]

That's where your fallacy lies, a benefit for the Horde does not have to be a loss for the Alliance. Thrall fought Humans to get the Orcs out of Lordaeron, but once they were free on Kalimdor, he worked with Jaina's fugitives and the NElves against the actual threat.

Thrall was a naive Alliance appeaser that thought just because he personally could get along with Jaina the factions themselves would follow suit. And to preserve that delusion he deliberately ignored Alliance's multiple acts of aggression in Vanilla.

Saurfang was for the War of the Thorns, because it was intended as a short conflict that would bring about complete Horde control over Kalimdor, with hostages in Darnassus ensuring that the Alliance doesn't retaliate.
Sylvanas throws that away, for no good reason (to the other races of the Horde)

Saurfang threw that away by making sure the Night Elves would remain unbroken, which would make any attempt at subjugation unfeasible. Sylvanas tried to salvage the situation. Saurfang agreed with her explanation.

Other than that, the Horde does not have a clear advantage in the war of BfA, unlike the War of the Thorns. So, it can be argued that this whole thing is not beneficial for the Horde, and ending it would be preferable, even if this meant saying "my bad" and signing a peace treaty (which, again, was kinda the point of the War of the Thorns, only that the Horde would've been in a more dominant position)

Any peace under those circumstances would be the antithesis of "preferable for the Horde". Preferable for all the Baines of the Horde? Sure. But that's because they dream of being Blanduin's doormat.

Acting to the interests of your people and the Horde itself means acting against the Warchief, so that's technically treason, but you didn't hear many players call Vol'jin a traitor during MoP.

You know who argued that Vol'jin was a traitor not just in MoP, but ever since pre-Cata? And deserved death for that? Baine. By Baine's own logic in his defense of Garrosh, Baine should have been executed in 7.1.5. And, consequently, by his own logic Sylvanas is being lenient and benevolent in how she decided to deal with him.

However, I agree with the mentions that Baine's motivations are improperly explained, but that's story neglect, not a character flaw.

But they are explained. Baine is an Alliance sycophant. That's why he only ever acts when his actions would be of benefit of the Alliance or detrimental to the Horde (or, preferably for him, both at once).

Yes, on their own, Baine's actions are questionable, but they pale in comparison to those of Sylvanas.

You employ whataboutism

You didn't really think this post through.

[Grazrug]

Baine only became extra bad with his new click quotes. Blizzard deleted anything about the Horde from him. It's just Azeroth, Spirits and the earth mother now.

[Dalheim]

Baine only became extra bad with his new click quotes. Blizzard deleted anything about the Horde from him. It's just Azeroth, Spirits and the earth mother now.

Do you know what Cairne Bloodhoofs click-on quotes was?

''We Tauren have always held a great respect for the ways of the Earthmother.''
''I am Cairne, chief of the Bloodhoof Tauren.''
'Take heart young one, the Earthmother is near.''
''Ish-ne-alo por-ah, may the Earthmother smile upon you.''

Using your logic with the click-on quotes, Cairne was also an Alliance boy.

[Arrashi]

Do you know what Cairne Bloodhoofs click-on quotes was?

''We Tauren have always held a great respect for the ways of the Earthmother.''
''I am Cairne, chief of the Bloodhoof Tauren.''
'Take heart young one, the Earthmother is near.''
''Ish-ne-alo por-ah, may the Earthmother smile upon you.''

Using your logic with the click-on quotes, Cairne was also an Alliance boy.

To be fair, when cairne was alive there wasn't really any horde vs alliance conflict. The biggest you would get was theramore issue.

OT: Voting for baine, we need more examples of positive masculinity in horde.

[Dalheim]

To be fair, when cairne was alive there wasn't really any horde vs alliance conflict. The biggest you would get was theramore issue.

OT: Voting for baine, we need more examples of positive masculinity in horde.

Yeah, true.. Still, I don't think Cairne hated the alliance, he was with the Horde, thus they were his enemies and would fight them, but not without good reason.

[Spichora]

Funny how Sylvanas and Baine's colors in this thread matches up.

[Arrashi]

Yeah, true.. Still, I don't think Cairne hated the alliance, he was with the Horde, thus they were his enemies and would fight them, but not without good reason.

And yet both alliance incrusions in mulgore and barrens were dealt with without second thoughts. And we weren't in faction war back then. Not to mention that cairne wasn't having any painfully obvious bromance with alliance figurehead.

[Dalheim]

And yet both alliance incrusions in mulgore and barrens were dealt with without second thoughts. And we weren't in faction war back then. Not to mention that cairne wasn't having any painfully obvious bromance with alliance figurehead.

Yup, because they were his enemies and they invaded his lands. Seems fair to me.

And yeah, that's true too.

[steelballfc]

Yes, like another elf would make things better or fix the mess, i think we learn a lesson already hun?

he can't make it worse for the Horde

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And yet both alliance incrusions in mulgore and barrens were dealt with without second thoughts. And we weren't in faction war back then. Not to mention that cairne wasn't having any painfully obvious bromance with alliance figurehead.

Varian was not his senpai

[Lyssander]

Sylvanas. She may be a ruined character, but Baine was never good to begin with.