Does raiding need dramatically reviewed?

[Pua]

Having read Limit’s blog, and having checked the cool MMO-C post that counts the days bosses have survived, are we now in the position where Mythic needs to be dramatically reviewed… Or totally removed?

To be clear:

@Nitros14 isn’t showing a post that suggests earlier bosses were easier; that’s not his point, so don’t argue about raid difficulty. It’s widely understood that Mythic bosses are now the most difficult bosses for raids to kill, and that earlier ones were much easier. It’s also widely understood that top level raids now have much better skilled and committed players than those fifteen years ago, while the challenge itself was vastly different.

Roughly summarised, the current raid system is about individual performance – back then, it was about group organisation.

But the question here is whether or not a raid difficulty, that practically no players will participate in, is actually managing to deliver what the designers are intending.

Perhaps the first question is what the designers want their raid difficulties to achieve.

Now, let’s not forget; we’re in an expansion that’s failing across the board for multiple reasons, not just raiding. But when the raid design is seeing nothing but the final boss surviving more than a day, in its most difficult setting, are we witnessing a design or are we witnessing a design failure?
I’m not a hugely experienced raider, so I’m happy to be corrected, but the last example I recall of this was Cataclysm’s Ragnaros. The other bosses were challenging enough, but the jump to killing Ragnaros was huge. That’s what’s just happened with Jaina, and both of the first two killing leaders have said that it’s frustrated them.

But should Blizzard be trying to create content that is aimed at such an extremely small percentage of its players? In a content system that is participated by a minority, should a role-playing game be trying to up difficulties to an exclusive group that contribute nothing whatsoever to the game?

Given that Mythic is essentially unnecessary for the game’s community, is there a strong reason to even see it continue, given that it’s not even pleasing the minority it’s aimed at?

I’ve said before that raiding should see only two settings – LFR, and a flexible group setting that starts ‘Normal’, has its second half as ‘Heroic’, and then has a couple of activated ‘Mythic’ bosses as it worked in Ulduar. Such a stance would dramatically improve so many problems, particularly the ludicrous item level scaling, and we’re now in a position where the most committed raid players can only have two outcomes:

1. They master the game to the point where everything becomes too easy.
2. Difficulty is upped to where an even smaller percentage ever participates.

So… What should be aimed at?

I’m genuinely curious what people think, with the exception of the Mythic raiders who will argue that they should be catered for, despite being a huge minority. I’m not suggesting that such a view is wrong, I’m simply saying that I already know it exists.

Answers on a postcard.

[Wilfire]

With the removal of tier sets and M+ dropping better gear, there is no need for mythic raids to even exist anymore.

[Pua]

With the removal of tier sets and M+ dropping better gear, there is no need for mythic raids to even exist anymore.

It’s understood by many that the random and proc-related item level scaling across this game is reducing overall difficulty, which makes that piece of design a bad thing. But I would say that it’s worth remembering that raiding isn’t especially designed for gear development, and has several other reasons to exist.

The snag is that those reasons differ dramatically from those that existed when the game was designed by the likes of Jeff Kaplan.

[Xath]

With the removal of tier sets and M+ dropping better gear, there is no need for mythic raids to even exist anymore.

Yeah there actually is it's the only actual challenge left in this game that is pve based rather than pvp

[Soon-TM]

Interesting points, OP. But I doubt that devs would change anything, since the game has been catering to Mythic raiders first and foremost, for quite some time already. Ion himself was a hardcore raider, and his bias is quite evident.

[Gasparde]

Have hard shit that gets easier with every week. AP kinda does that already, getting more gear in general does that, but both of these are way too slow for the general playerbase (as could be seen back in Tomb of Sargeras where just getting a bit more AP and a bit more gear wasn't enough for most people to get past Avatar and/or KJ). Compare that to Hellfire Citadel and what Legendary rings did to the place.

Have the place be rock hard for the first week. Have it even be rock hard for week 2. And week 3. Like, seriously, have these places be so tough that it is actually as mathematically impossible as Fallen Avatar. And then add some stupid shit like Reorigination Array (but not in the stupid Uldir way that took a trait slow away from everyone). Instead of getting the nerf bat out and nerfing every hard encounter by 10% after 2 weeks... just have everyone get progressively stronger (getting 1 piece of gear and 1/17th of a neck level on everyone in your raid doesn't make fights noticeably easier).

[Airwaves]

They just need new mechanics. They have been using the same shit for a decade. It is time to bring that new AI into raids and make something cool. Right now it is just doing the same mechanics over and over and over. Most don't even skip a teir before been reused.

[Irian]

I would love to see raid difficulties adjusted and hopefully reduced, but the current developer team is so stagnant - and bizarrely proud in their stagnancy, at that - that I seriously can't imagine any big changes for WoW's raiding scene are coming any time soon.

I do miss when raiding had an emphasis on organization and coordination over individual player reflexes and responsibility. WoW isn't an action game, and designing it like one just doesn't feel very good.

For years now I've been a huge proponent of the old raid design: One or two difficulties, with layers of difficulty within the same tier. Gimme bosses for the first few, then intermediates, with some tricky and demanding bosses with the final one being the true test similar to what we're seeing in current Mythic overall. Yes, this would be an overall reduction in the difficulty of the raid encounters overall but it's my hope that such a change would come with a return to a bit more class complexity and nuance, leading players to more difficulty in trying to figure out how their particular class can deal with a boss encounter instead like in the old days of raiding.

[Pua]

Yeah there actually is it's the only actual challenge left in this game that is pve based rather than pvp

To be fair, Mythic+ dungeons are also challenging by the time you get up to the higher levels; but, again, we’re talking about a huge minority of players who have an interest in that.

Interesting points, OP. But I doubt that devs would change anything, since the game has been catering to Mythic raiders first and foremost, for quite some time already. Ion himself was a hardcore raider, and his bias is quite evident.

I don’t disagree, but I’d like to see him properly interviewed on the subject.

Have hard shit that gets easier with every week. AP kinda does that already, getting more gear in general does that, but both of these are way too slow for the general playerbase (as could be seen back in Tomb of Sargeras where just getting a bit more AP and a bit more gear wasn't enough for most people to get past Avatar and/or KJ).

The ‘general playerbase’ doesn’t participate in hard raids. That’s why this whole stance needs properly reviewed, because those players that take part in extremely difficult content are an extreme minority… And always have been.

[Alphatorg]

Interesting points, OP. But I doubt that devs would change anything, since the game has been catering to Mythic raiders first and foremost, for quite some time already. Ion himself was a hardcore raider, and his bias is quite evident.

Removal of master loot
Legendaries
AP grind
World quests
Titanforge

How do any of these major design decisions count as catering to mythic raiders? WoD was basically the perfect expansion for mythic raiders and the development has made a drastic u-turn from there.

I don't see OPs point either. It's not like Mythic raids have alle this exclusive content, which takes up development ressources, in BFD especially most bosses feel like heroic bosses with a bit harsher numbers tuning, which is why guilds complain that 8/9 bossess are (too) easy.

[Pua]

For years now I've been a huge proponent of the old raid design: One or two difficulties, with layers of difficulty within the same tier. Gimme bosses for the first few, then intermediates, with some tricky and demanding bosses with the final one being the true test similar to what we're seeing in current Mythic overall. Yes, this would be an overall reduction in the difficulty of the raid encounters overall but it's my hope that such a change would come with a return to a bit more class complexity and nuance, leading players to more difficulty in trying to figure out how their particular class can deal with a boss encounter instead like in the old days of raiding.

That's roughly what I tried to describe. There's still no argument against it that's been strong.

Removal of master loot
Legendaries
AP grind
World quests
Titanforge

How do any of these major design decisions count as catering to mythic raiders?

Erm... They could potentially all be catering to Mythic raiders. In fact, if you read the Limit post I've linked, you'll see him making the point about the difference in item level; which every one of your points can be influencing.

[Alphatorg]

That's roughly what I tried to describe. There's still no argument against it that's been strong.


Erm... They could potentially all be catering to Mythic raiders. In fact, if you read the Limit post I've linked, you'll see him making the point about the difference in item level; which every one of your points can be effected by.

Every halfway serious guild hates the removal of master loot. Legendaries (Legion) were random drops with huge impact on a player's power level, it's the exact opposite of what competitive players desire.
AP grind and world quests are chores to milk more subscription months out of clueless casuals. Mythic raiders don't require these tricks, since their raids/guilds require them to be subscribed all content long.

Just step back and think for half a second about what you're trying to sell as logic here. You claim that mythic raiding is so insignificant that Blizzard might as well scrap the whole concept and then half a minute later you claim that they design their whole game around it?

[laplacedemon]

I don't understand why guys you act like mythic difficulty stays the same during a whole tier. During the first week, Jaina might be for "Method only" but people who haven't done 6 heroic splits with ridiculous amounts of planning and getting 3 professions to craft 3 pieces of gear on every alt get geared in time and it does get nerfed. There are 1700 guilds with mythic G'huun kills, why would you want to remove that especially at a time when world first race created good amount of viewers?

[Mardux]

I really want them to try having an adaptive boss who changes their strategy depending on player actions.
And you know what such gameplay would favor right? Giving us back all the tools they randomly removed.

Reactive bosses would be pretty sweet imo.

I feel like that might have been partly responsible for the idea behind jaina's iceblock being triggered by heroism cast. Its super simple, but its a start to having reactive bosses.

[Viklad]

mythic difficulty is the only fun pve content for so many people, and is almost entirely the only community-based activity left in the game to date (PVP, M-raiding, M+15>). i see these topic almost every day, but i been interested how many Op have actually gone and tired mythic in your own guild, because let me reference this to you as a mythic raider myself, there little more satisfying in the game than after 100 pulls or so finally getting that kill.

And for the love of god, no mythic raider primary objective is to get the best Loot. we all just want a challenging encounter, and currently that could only be found in mythic, one more point just cause the raids last 3 bosses were under tuned, doesnt mean we need a 100 of these thread saying how mythic is shit its not even hard but its so inhibiting and restrictive, that complete horse shit, anyone that wants to try mythic (and i mean try,cause it takes some effort, god forbid right) is able to join a mythic guild and make progress within the game, that is a fact!

[Pua]

No and mythic raiding was always about individual performance. You have to play your part in team and team is not team organized if someone decides to think out of it or more so -[thunders] - selfishly.

Because of your english, I’m not sure what you’re saying here but…

I’m not suggesting that there’s no group organisation in today’s Mythic raiding. I used the term ‘roughly summarised’ to suggest that my sentence was exactly that; a rough summary. Ultimately, the point I’m making is that initial raiding (all those years ago) was personally simple for players, and its biggest challenge was the time of organising and aligning character necessities.

There are now no character necessities prior to release of a Mythic raid, and the difficulty of bosses has been dramatically increased to what it was originally.

Every halfway serious guild hates the removal of master loot. Legendaries (Legion) were random drops with huge impact on a player's power level, it's the exact opposite of what competitive players desire.
AP grind and world quests are chores to milk more subscription months out of clueless casuals. Mythic raiders don't require these tricks, since their raids/guilds require them to be subscribed all content long.

Just step back and think for half a second about what you're trying to sell as logic here. You claim that mythic raiding is so insignificant that Blizzard might as well scrap the whole concept and then half a minute later you claim that they design their whole game around it?

First off, there’s no way to prove that ‘every halfway serious guild hates the removal of master loot’. I’m saying this because even the definition of a ‘halfway serious guild’ is practically impossible these days. Every time someone differs players as casuals or hardcores, I almost cry with frustration.

You second paragraph isn’t actually pointing out a logical issue. I’d rethink what you’re asking, and I’ll answer it once it’s not flawed.

Pinky swear.

[mysticx]

Can we really draw any fair and unbiased conclusions from what the top 10 or so guilds are doing?

Those guilds are more skilled, more organized, more... fanatical about it than 99% of other guilds, making mythic a longer-lasting challenge for those outliers would make it utterly impossible for the majority of mythic guilds.

[Pua]

mythic difficulty is the only fun pve content for so many people...

That's a strange claim, given that it's the least participated PvE content in the game. And by distances.

Those guilds are more skilled, more organized, more... fanatical about it than 99% of other guilds, making mythic a longer-lasting challenge for those outliers would make it utterly impossible for the majority of mythic guilds.

I absolutely agree; I think it would be inherently daft... But not out of possibility.

[quite an expert in wow]

I think it's fine how it's current working out.

The top 3 guilds doing anything in their power to get (gear) advantage is relevant to maybe 50 people out of the millions that are playing WoW. Sure this may suck for them, but I'm not really bothered about that. It's their choice to put so much effort into a race that has so little direct involvement (there is a lot of indirect involvement of course, for example people watching their stream) but that's IMO irrelevant because it doesn't affect my or the general playerbases' gameplay in the slightest.

[Jambalam]

First off, there’s no way to prove that ‘every halfway serious guild hates the removal of master loot’. I’m saying this because even the definition of a ‘halfway serious guild’ is practically impossible these days.

If serious guilds are top 100 in the rankings, halfway serious guilds would be top 1000ish.

I challenge you to find me a top 1000 guild that is happy with personal loot.