Baine's big, achy tauren heart

[Arrashi]

Wasnt that the Boss?

Oh yes. Maybe. Sometimes i get them mixed.

[The Stormbringer]

Eh, the one I have the biggest beef with is your interpretation of the second quote. To Garrosh, being a servant of the Horde meant being a servant to HIM, the Warchief. To Thrall, it meant actually serving the Horde and its people.

Oh, I'd also argue that the 'I was just following orders' is an excuse a certain group in a certain real life war used to try to defend their actions, but the courts did not agree.

The Mak'gora thing... Mak'gora is primarily a thing in Orcish culture, and also he'd already seen his father killed in a supposed 'honorable duel' before with treachery (poison). Why would he just accept the same wouldn't happen to him?

[Verdugo]

Oh yes. Maybe. Sometimes i get them mixed.

It went horribly wrong anyway so eh.

[Wilfire]

This is the future you chose. Don't call it a grave.

I didn't choose it. Blizzard's writers chose it for me when they decided that half the playerbase should feel guilty for their choice of faction.

[Super Dickmann]

I didn't choose it. Blizzard's writers chose it for me when they decided that half the playerbase should feel guilty for their choice of faction.

Maybe the real BFA was the Baines we got to send to prison along the way.

[KrakHed]

There's genuinely nothing they could reveal that either hasn't already been seen coming by anyone with two brain cells to rub together, like how Sylvanas is...wait for it...evil and an old god puppet or that Saurfang is going to team up with the Alliance. Anything else would be some kind of out of left field retardation like Nazjatar being like Argus with Sylvanas opening the way there to complete her evil plan. The only thing they can is to attempt to reduce the damage done to Saurfang's character now that they know the initial rollout of him as the Horde's hero failed, but given how out of touch they are and this whole Baine malarky, I can only see them making it worse.

What it won't do is change anyone's mind, since both 'sides' in the Horde have made peace with the fact that Saurfang is a whiny lackey of Anduin who's here to bring about the Red Alliance and Sylvanas is the devil incarnate who works for N'zoth and will just betray the PC when Blizzard run out of ways to try and fail to turn people against her.

What's really impressive about this story is that it's both paced horribly and also massively predictable, but the writers think neither is the case, so we're essentially stuck going through the motions for two years.



Azerite is a casualty of that first version I talked about. Back then it was relevant because the conflict was meant to be morally grey, so there had to be an inciting incident. When they decided Sylvanas was going to be Satan, it was no longer needed. Notice how azerite is a huge deal at the start of BTS, but nobody ever mentions it by the end. They know this too since they even joked about how they were finally going to go back to this. But Teldrassil was something else, especially since literally all it'd have taken is a color shift when the catapults were being lit to get across that it's azerite. Genuinely a minute in photoshop.

Yep. Painfully predictable, unless an element of the original plot direction suddenly smashes its face in. Even then, it'll likely be stupid as fuck. What's more, the writers don't seem to recognize the difference between their intent and what people actually end up seeing.

They treat Baine as if he should be respected. And looking at the kind of character the writers think he is, the sort of voice lines they give him on his click quotes, the idea of Baine seems like he''s actually a respectable character. Sadly, Baine doesn't live up to his character concept. Cairne's reputation could have survived Baine-like behavior with only a few bruises, because he had an established history of actions taken for the Tauren and the Horde. Something Blizzard forgot to give Baine.

It's why I still hold Thrall to be a redeemable character. He has a past where his writing was decent. We know Thrall is capable of being a decent character, and we know what he did for the Horde. Jaina was also fucked with, but she too had history that made her salvageable.

When you make a new character with no history, you need to make sure you give people reason to support them. This is the issue with Baine, Anduin, and even Garrosh. Garrosh's introduction was awful. Blizzard would say, "He'll get better, trust us!", but they simply didn't set up enough of a positive side to him. Since they mostly only showed his negative traits, Afrasiabi's imaginary Garrosh simply never exists for the most part. And so, the imaginary Baine doesn't exist in reality either. And so, Anduin doesn't have the personal history got Alliance players to respect him much.

But all these characters and Saurfang would be fixable if they developed the aspects of their character that only exist in their heads.

[Grythletubs]

Then the question is : how come Sylvanas is still giving orders and being obeyed ?

Like I said they're all scared/plotting. I don't agree with them being scared but that's how Blizzard is writing them

[Nathasil]

I didn't choose it. Blizzard's writers chose it for me when they decided that half the playerbase should feel guilty for their choice of faction.

They also decided the other half should feel as pitiful victims for the choice of their faction. Which i would argue is worse. Especially if you consider there will never be any revenge for that. The entire Horde is guilty of genocide, not just Sylvanas. And, spoiler alert, almost all of them will get away with it. There is absolutely nothing to feel good about in this story.

[Super Dickmann]

They also decided the other half should feel as pitiful victims for the choice of their faction. Which i would argue is worse. Especially if you consider there will never be any revenge for that. The entire Horde is guilty of genocide, not just Sylvanas. And, spoiler alert, almost all of them will get away with it. There is absolutely nothing to feel good about in this story.

If it's any comfort, being part of the Baine-Anduin Unifaction at the end of this is a much bigger punishment than any Alliance occupation or Night Elf counter-genocide.

Other than that, yes, if the Alliance had a lick of realism they would be dismantling the Horde and the night elves especially showing any forgiveness is basically parody.

[Nathasil]

If it's any comfort, being part of the Baine-Anduin Unifaction at the end of this is a much bigger punishment than any Alliance occupation or Night Elf counter-genocide.

Like i said, the entire Horde is guilty of genocide. This includes Baine. It includes Saurfang. As far as i'm concerned they are every bit as guilty as Sylvanas. Getting them into "my" faction is a much bigger punishment towards the Alliance than the Horde. And this is actually the "best" outcome i can hope for. The outlook is just entirely depressing. I enjoy BFA's story the most when i completely ignore it. Which is hard. I have never been a player to ignore the story.

[Super Dickmann]

Do you really expect such a thing to happen?

Sylvanas being the scapegoat for everything with all the others culpable getting away scott free? That's's guaranteed. The Unifaction, likewise. The endgame of this expansion is for the Horde Warchief to be someone who agrees with Our Spiritual Liege and can take his place in the background while Anduin goes into space after teaching us about honor. This may include a Peace Mode feature to allow PvE grouping for the newest content. But even if it doesn't, story-wise that'll be it.

@Nathasil

Yes, they are guilty. We both lose. I don't want them in my faction because they run counter to the war that I want out of the game without endless preening moralizing. You don't want them in your faction because you don't buy the game's bs that their enabling of everything that's happened up to this point is somehow okay because once Sylvanas becomes an Old God puppet they'll overthrow her.

[Hyral]

I've always liked Baine. He would speak of honor, wisdom, and of honoring the ancestors and traditions, reminds me of the old Horde that WoW started with (not the Old Horde).

Lately though he's hard to like as an Alliance player. I want a return to a proud horde that had some semblance of morality, if ever misguided, instead of the New Scourge we have now. But I want the Horde back because they are a worthy enemy. With Baine as a leader it seems they would just grovel, no fun in fighting someone like that.

[KrakHed]

I've always liked Baine. He would speak of honor, wisdom, and of honoring the ancestors and traditions, reminds me of the old Horde that WoW started with (not the Old Horde).

Lately though he's hard to like as an Alliance player. I want a return to a proud horde that had some semblance of morality, if ever misguided, instead of the New Scourge we have now. But I want the Horde back because they are a worthy enemy. With Baine as a leader it seems they would just grovel, no fun in fighting someone like that.

I think there's something that must be fundamentally misunderstood. Baine is not written to be a groveler. His character just doesn't work with any of the faction war narrative we've been through. If Baine were in charge of the Horde, he's not a character written to take the villain bat. If he weren't just killed off, Baine would have to be written as right to go to war.

And if Baine were written as right, what reason would he have to grovel? All he would do is Jaina/Anduin-esque, "don't kill their mourners" speeches every now and then.

If Baine led a war, it would be a similar scenario to fighting an Anduin or Jaina. You'd be the baddies for fighting the Peacechief.

[Hyral]

I think there's something that must be fundamentally misunderstood. Baine is not written to be a groveler. His character just doesn't work with any of the faction war narrative we've been through. If Baine were in charge of the Horde, he's not a character written to take the villain bat. If he weren't just killed off, Baine would have to be written as right to go to war.

And if Baine were written as right, what reason would he have to grovel? All he would do is Jaina/Anduin-esque, "don't kill their mourners" speeches every now and then.

If Baine led a war, it would be a similar scenario to fighting an Anduin or Jaina. You'd be the baddies for fighting the Peacechief.

That's kind of entirely wrong. Thrall was the Horde's Anduin and he was not afraid to fight. Moreover you can definitely have a war where neither side is bad, that's pretty much the basis of the franchise.

[KrakHed]

That's kind of entirely wrong. Thrall was the Horde's Anduin and he was not afraid to fight. Moreover you can definitely have a war where neither side is bad, that's pretty much the basis of the franchise.

Yes. I'm saying that fighting Baine would be literally the same as fighting Thrall. Baine's issue is that he's only ever been a real character while the Horde was being villain-batted, and thus must be presented "as one of the good ones" by participating as little as possible. If you put Baine in charge, the war he leads must be morally sound in principle. And if the war is morally sound, and the narrative portrays it that way, why wouldn't Baine fight?

Back when they were considering making Cata morally grey, he had voice lines for fighting the Alliance back from Mulgore. That's the kind of character Baine is in the writers' heads.

Fighting Baine means either you're the villain or no one is. And chances are, if there's a war and Baine's the leader of his side, the other side would have gotten a pretty savage batting of villainy. And he'll preach and cry about how you're forcing him to fight you, but he will. Because good guys fight bad guys.

[Super Dickmann]

Back when they were considering making Cata morally grey, he had voice lines for fighting the Alliance back from Mulgore. That's the kind of character Baine is in the writers' heads.

Fighting Baine means either you're the villain or no one is. And chances are, if there's a war and Baine's the leader of his side, the other side would have gotten a pretty savage batting of villainy. And he'll preach and cry about how you're forcing him to fight you, but he will. Because good guys fight bad guys.

Cataclysm and especially the Barrens situation was morally grey. No amount of post-factum amnesia induced by Golden's atrocious writing in Tides of War changes what we actually saw happen in Cataclysm, where the tauren were an aggrieved party and the orcs and invading Alliance occupied about the same moral wavelength, with the dwarves arguably being the most morally bankrupt ones present.

Even where the war is good vs evil, like how is basically the case in EK, the game was very careful about making the Forsaken the heroes of their own story, in contrast to their current story. Hence why you had Sylvanas talking about the historic claim to Lordaeron, collecting the dogtags of fallen Forsaken troops, undead heroically refusing to give up information to the enemy before they were offed and the war being one of extermination on both sides, with the Sylvanas story directly stating that an Alliance victory in EK would end up with the Forsaken destroyed.

That's why Baine's worst conduct is in relation to Cataclysm, because that and its surrounding novels was where he worked counter to the interests of his own race in a conflict where defeat had actual stakes instead of a judgmental hug from the God-King. Lor'themar is also a traitor, but because he consistently sticks with what's good for those he's responsible for, he hasn't accrued nearly as much hate as Baine. Also because belves are far more popular than tauren, but beside the point.

[Xath]

Tsk. Couldn't even wait for the second page to Godwin. Call me when we're suiting up in Hugo Boss outfits and putting void elves in the oven. Until then, Baine is those guys' moral inferior, since he saved one person from being abused and sent three of them on his own side to hell.

Uh you burned 90 percent of the night elf population alive and then came back and raised them as "willing" soldiers to hunt and kill the rest.

[Super Dickmann]

Uh you burned 90 percent of the night elf population alive and then came back and raised them as "willing" soldiers to hunt and kill the rest.

Okay, and? No one gives a shit about Teldrassi Horde-side except Saurfang and it wasn't even enough to get him to defect, it took realizing that Sylvanas was using a trap to get him to quit. Baine's never mentioned it once. His mope-a-thon and offing of Horde troops was because of one guy getting raised as a slave, shit that's more minor than what an Unholy DK does as part of his standard rotation.

[KrakHed]

Cataclysm and especially the Barrens situation was morally grey. No amount of post-factum amnesia induced by Golden's atrocious writing in Tides of War changes what we actually saw happen in Cataclysm, where the tauren were an aggrieved party and the orcs and invading Alliance occupied about the same moral wavelength, with the dwarves arguably being the most morally bankrupt ones present.

Even where the war is good vs evil, like how is basically the case in EK, the game is very careful about making the Forsaken the heroes of their own story, in contrast to their current story.

Oh yes, Cataclysm was off to a pretty good start, but the villain bat was still present. A few writers tried to make him more sympathetic. They tried so hard. But in the end, it didn't even matter.

I could see the angle they were leaning from the beginning. With how Metzen described Garrosh, you knew the story was going to go to shit.

In their minds, a Garrosh who stopped being a douche would be too much like Thrall. His famous Stonetalon scene was actually pretty damned Thrall-like, very strongly reminding me of a specific Thrall-scene. And honestly, the story would have been better if he had basically become a second Thrall, but the more proactive aspects of Thrall, when Thrall went off to become a lame hippy Go'el.

The villain batting started light, but it was there and I could doomsay it with each added novel where the Horde somehow starts a war that already started and then starts it again in the next.

[Super Dickmann]

In their minds, a Garrosh who stopped being a douche would be too much like Thrall. His famous Stonetalon scene was actually pretty damned Thrall-like, very strongly reminding me of a specific Thrall-scene. And honestly, the story would have been better if he had basically become a second Thrall, but the more proactive aspects of Thrall, when Thrall went off to become a lame hippy Go'el.

The point is that free of Blizzard's later changes Cataclysm is a morally grey narrative. Baine defending his people from the Alliance lead by say, Twinbraid, trying to knock down the Great Gate, would not have reflected poorly on him because the tauren we help there are treated as heroes. So is Bloodhilt. They chose to cut it and to make him exile his own people instead, without actually retconning what happened. That's what killed him. A character like him can survive treason of the Horde because that's not a dealbreaker for his target demographic. Coming across as apathetic of his own people and never standing for his principles is. Sneaky and weak aren't descriptors you associate with a tauren.

I don't really care about the tauren much, but there's a reason why Cairne is widely beloved and that's because his moral stand was immediate, consistent with his characterization, came after a history of action and showed him to be exactly the kind of gentle giant who can break your head in if you piss him off that is the whole appeal of the tauren.

As for Garrosh, it depends on where you look. What you definitely didn't have in any place is Early Mists-Tides of War Garrosh. Garrosh at his worst was aggressive and kind of a dumbass, and at his best was a crusader for a valid cause that had been ignored before. While Stonetalon Garrosh wouldn't have been a bad lasting turn, I do think it showed a lot about Afrasiabi, because as nice as it is, it just isn't very Garrosh-y. We know from Shattering, which also portrayed Garrosh as a rash dude with the capacity for greatness, that he didn't really care much for Saurfang. It was more "Ideal Orc Warchief" as envisioned by Afrasiabi, than it was Garrosh specifically.