Tinker's spec speculation. What's yours?

[Ielenia]

That comparison is very weak. Yes, Monks could still tank without brews, but they would not be able to compete with the other Tank specs, who all have some way to "lessen the blow" (armor, shields, thick fur, self-heal) that a simple martial arts expert would not have.

Not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying the "brews" are not integral to the concept. A tanking concept for monks could still be made without brews. A healing spec, in my opinion, cannot be made for a tech class since the overwhelming majority of the "next-to-nothing" amount of examples of tech healing is shown to apparently depend on alchemy.

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Neither is a Tinker carrying or making potions despite using them.

THAT requires suspension of disbelief. Because it would happen within the narrative.

Which is perfect as a blank slate to create new instances of healing using technology that may not be tied directly to Alchemy.

Except "technology" in Warcraft is not a "blank slate". It has been defined, more and more, as the years and expansions roll by.

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Who needs an example in game, it's what they could easily do for gameplay mechanics to make a tinker healing class.

So you're basing your argument on nothing but what's in your underwear?

Great, so you're saying that Destruction Warlock and Elemental Shaman are actually Fire Mages?

Fail argument is fail. For two main reasons, that I'll repeat one last time:
One: because magic is an infinite, abundant resource that exists all around you at all times and recharge naturally, while 'potions' are a finite, limited resource that require trips to the local town to restock.
Two: a warlock is not taking spells mages already cast and tossing them, themselves.

Also: heavy lol at saying "elemental shamans are fire mages".

Once again, the argument is plenty valid.

It's not. Read above.

We've already proven

You haven't.

There is an argument from me,

There is none.

they are equitable.

They are not.

And you're only argument is to say "no they don't"

And here is where I stop responding to you, since you make it blatantly clear you don't read what I write if you think all I'm saying is "no they don't" while ignoring the entire reasoning why I claim "magic" and "potions" are not equitable in any relevant way.

while I literally insist to try to put the yellow five-inch wide triangle through the two-inch wide square hole while you explain to me while I ignore you it doesn't fit.

FTFY.

[Triceron]

THAT requires suspension of disbelief. Because it would happen within the narrative.

In my earlier reply, I specifically said

Suspension of disbelief would be applied to things like Tinkers having unlimited potions or hunters having unlimited ammo

You already suspend your belief on Hunters.

Except "technology" in Warcraft is not a "blank slate". It has been defined, more and more, as the years and expansions roll by.

Tinkers are a blank slate that have not been defined.

And by your own admission, technology is progressively growing, meaning what was once rare can become much more commonplace.

[DotEleven]

So you're basing your argument on nothing but what's in your underwear?


Fail argument is fail. For two main reasons, that I'll repeat one last time:
One: because magic is an infinite, abundant resource that exists all around you at all times and recharge naturally, while 'potions' are a finite, limited resource that require trips to the local town to restock.
Two: a warlock is not taking spells mages already cast and tossing them, themselves.

Also: heavy lol at saying "elemental shamans are fire mages".


It's not. Read above.

You haven't.

There is none.

They are not.

And here is where I stop responding to you, since you make it blatantly clear you don't read what I write if you think all I'm saying is "no they don't" while ignoring the entire reasoning why I claim "magic" and "potions" are not equitable in any relevant way.


FTFY.

You're literally just completely obtuse and unable to see reason.

We've already confirmed 2 things.

1) Classes have required outside resources before (hunter ammo).
2) The application of the spell can change who it's for. Yes, the base is alchemy, just like the base of any fire spell is fire. But if it's supplied through something else it can be an ability for a different archtype, just like the fire. If it's fel it's a destruction spell. If it's applied through the elements it's a shaman ability, if it's the arcane it's a mage ability.

These 2 points you literally refuse to acknowledge. And until you do you're just wrong. Which is great because literally your only proof that I'm wrong is you saying "I'm wrong"

[Triceron]

And until you do you're just wrong. Which is great because literally your only proof that I'm wrong is you saying "I'm wrong"

It's frustrating trying to argue with such twisted logic. I mean... this whole thing is fiction, it can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be, yet the guy can't wrap his head around potions being used by a class because he's got it in his head that they can only come from 'the store'. I mean, his reasoning doesn't even get in the way of a Tinker class, it's just him being unable to grasp how fiction works.

[Jinpachi]

You can associate getting drunk with just about any profession. Drunk teachers, drunk clowns, drunk scientists. Anything.

Drunk people don't feel pain. Hope that solves the issue for you.

[DotEleven]

It's frustrating trying to argue with such twisted logic. I mean... this whole thing is fiction, it can be whatever Blizzard wants it to be, yet the guy can't wrap his head around potions being used by a class because he's got it in his head that they can only come from 'the store'. I mean, his reasoning doesn't even get in the way of a Tinker class, it's just him being unable to grasp how fiction works.

It's funny because even if potions come from "the store" so did hunter bullets, shaman ankhs, mage portal runes or whatever they were called. So it's not like there wasn't a precedent for them using stuff from "the store". And yet he just can't acknowledge it.

[Ielenia]

Suspension of disbelief would be applied to things like Tinkers having unlimited potions or hunters having unlimited ammo

You already suspend your belief on Hunters.

Suspension of disbelief is not unlimited or infinite. There is a limit. It's one thing for ammo, very cheap things, and alchemic concoctions, much more expensive.

Tinkers are a blank slate that have not been defined.

They're not. Tinkers all around the game, technology all around the game. So is technology.

And by your own admission, technology is progressively growing, meaning what was once rare can become much more commonplace.

I find it highly unlikely we'll see "super-duper-mega-hyper-revolutionary" tech that can easily heal without the use of alchemy appear out of nowhere and that is immediately mastered by the playable races.

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I'm literally just completely obtuse and unable to see reason.

FTFY.

We've already confirmed 2 things.

I just find so cute how you think your arguments about magic are on the level of the arguments from the other posters in this thread.

1) Classes have required outside resources before (hunter ammo).

Which is much cheaper than alchemical concoctions.

2) The application of the spell can change who it's for.

Completely irrelevant because magic is not equitable to manufactured physical objects.

literally my only proof that you're wrong is me saying "you're wrong"

FTFY again. Honestly, though, you keep whining that all I'm saying is "you're wrong", while you are the one refusing to address the criticism to your comparison by saying 'nuh-uh' and think that repeating the refuted argument without changing anything about it somehow will make it work this time.

[DotEleven]

Suspension of disbelief is not unlimited or infinite. There is a limit. It's one thing for ammo, very cheap things, and alchemic concoctions, much more expensive.


They're not. Tinkers all around the game, technology all around the game. So is technology.


I find it highly unlikely we'll see "super-duper-mega-hyper-revolutionary" tech that can easily heal without the use of alchemy appear out of nowhere and that is immediately mastered by the playable races.

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FTFY.


I just find so cute how you think your arguments about magic are on the level of the arguments from the other posters in this thread.


Which is much cheaper than alchemical concoctions.

Completely irrelevant because magic is not equitable to manufactured physical objects.


FTFY again. Honestly, though, you keep whining that all I'm saying is "you're wrong", while you are the one refusing to address the criticism to your comparison by saying 'nuh-uh' and think that repeating the refuted argument without changing anything about it somehow will make it work this time.

Once again, all you literally say is you're wrong. You've brought nothing while people have shown you everything. Explained it away, and all you can say is "no".

You haven't refuted a single point. You've finally come up with ONE argument which is "they're cheaper" which doesn't really matter because for one thing ammo was expensive as hell if you wanted to be good, and two, you don't know how much of it they would need. Tinker's have technology and who knows, it could strengthen the potions, make them last longer, or maybe they only need to use drops of a potion because it goes straight to the wound instead of needing to be imbibed.

I "repeat my refuted argument" because you haven't refuted anything. You've literally just sat there saying "It can't be used for a tech spec because it uses alchemy." while we provide you the reasoning that spells with similar flavor are used among different classes because of where they come from. You say that it can't be a spec because due to it's use of alchemy it would require outside resources and thus the spec isn't "self-sufficient" which we've once again proven that classes had done the same before. You have literally 0 ground to stand on while thinking your'e logic is infallible when it's a dinghy full of holes in the ocean.

[Triceron]

Suspension of disbelief is not unlimited or infinite. There is a limit. It's one thing for ammo, very cheap things, and alchemic concoctions, much more expensive.

The limit is self imposed, that is not a global issue. You are the one choosing that limit for yourself.

For posterity sake, quote just one other person who has ever made the same argument you have. Anyone.

You are alone in this issue.

They're not. Tinkers all around the game, technology all around the game. So is technology.

Technology is whatever blizzard wants it to be. That doesnt limit healing potion sprays or injectors.

[Ielenia]

Once again, all I'm literally say is I'm wrong.

I've brought nothing while you have shown me everything. Explained it away, and all I can say is "no".

I haven't refuted a single point. I've finally come up with ONE argument which is "magic" which doesn't really matter because for one thing magic is infinite, abundant and available at all times.

FTFY.

You keep claiming that all I am saying is "u wrong!" while you literally ignore the entire explanation of why your comparison fails, and fail to address all the glaring issues within your "argument".

If you're not going to take this seriously, I have no reason to take you seriously. Until you address the flaws pointed out in your argument, this will be my last response to you. Have a good day.

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Which is akin to arguing that summoning elephant sized mounts out of thin air breaks suspension of disbelief, but you are totally fine with summoning horse-sized mounts out of thin air. The limit is self imposed, that is not a global issue. You are the one choosing that limit for yourself.

Not really, because the 'summoning mounts', other than mounts that are actually summoned by magic, like the paladin's charger and the warlock's fiery horses, they're not actually being summoned, as in, "poof out" from the stable, "poof in" between your character's legs, and more like actually calling your mount that's standing not far from you.

Technology is whatever blizzard wants it to be. That doesnt limit healing potion sprays or injectors.

So far, is has been limited by it. Severely, I might add.

And again: I sincerely doubt we'll see the sudden introduction of a kind of technology that can easily heal without the usage of alchemy and that is instantly mastered by the playable races.

[Azalar]

It's certainly amusing to find that certain users are always guaranteed to pop up in literally any discussion about Tinkers xP

Speaking of which, I have an approach on: https://thetwofoldlight.wordpress.co...-class-tinker/

For me, them being a hybrid tank/heal/dps class is a must if we take on the fantasy from W3 Tinkers and Alchemists.

[Triceron]

Not really, because the 'summoning mounts', other than mounts that are actually summoned by magic, like the paladin's charger and the warlock's fiery horses, they're not actually being summoned, as in, "poof out" from the stable, "poof in" between your character's legs, and more like actually calling your mount that's standing not far from you.

Ahh, but you see, that is not lore. That is your own interpretation of what happens. In game, they all appear at the same time whether they are magical or not. There is no other explanation for their instantaneous appearance other than suspending disbelief. At that point, it doesn't matter whether a mount is magical or not - they appear because we accept that it can all be unrealistic.

If you can create that suspension of disbelief for yourself, then surely you can for accessing potions through poofing just the same. The only difference is you're excluding Potions because it doesn't fit your narrative. It honestly has nothing to do with any class having unlimited access to Class-based tools.

Besides, a Tinker that holds Potions in their inventory has the same limitations of any other class. They have to go to the store and buy them or create them through the Alchemy profession. That isn't going away; professions are still professions. We simply suspend the disbelief for class-based items, like Rogue poisons or Hunter Ammo.

[DotEleven]

FTFY.

You keep claiming that all I am saying is "u wrong!" while you literally ignore the entire explanation of why your comparison fails, and fail to address all the glaring issues within your "argument".

If you're not going to take this seriously, I have no reason to take you seriously. Until you address the flaws pointed out in your argument, this will be my last response to you. Have a good day.

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Not really, because the 'summoning mounts', other than mounts that are actually summoned by magic, like the paladin's charger and the warlock's fiery horses, they're not actually being summoned, as in, "poof out" from the stable, "poof in" between your character's legs, and more like actually calling your mount that's standing not far from you.


So far, is has been limited by it. Severely, I might add.

And again: I sincerely doubt we'll see the sudden introduction of a kind of technology that can easily heal without the usage of alchemy and that is instantly mastered by the playable races.

The comparison doesn't fail. Your reasoning as to why the comparison would fail is that potions cost more than bullets, but they really didn't. I've taken this plenty seriously, you're the one who hasn't. We've literally shown you how in game, the comparison has been done before. But you refuse to acknowledge it claiming somehow that 2+2 does not equal 4.

Literally the only thing you can do is take my argument, switch the pronouns because you can't come up with any of your own. You're simply either too stubborn, troll, or just flat out dumb to understand.

[Ielenia]

Ahh, but you see, that is not lore. That is your own interpretation of what happens. In game, they all appear at the same time whether they are magical or not. There is no other explanation for their instantaneous appearance other than suspending disbelief.

There is. I even pointed one out: mounts are waiting somewhere around you, and you call them to you, through whatever means your mount has been trained to respond to. A whistle, clap of hands, calling its name, etc. Suspension of disbelief is used when there is no explanation as the process or reason of a given event, 'magic' being the most obvious example.

Besides, a Tinker that holds Potions in their inventory has the same limitations of any other class. They have to go to the store and buy them or create them through the Alchemy profession. That isn't going away; professions are still professions.

I'm not talking about professions as their in-game feature 'player profession'.

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The comparison doesn't fail. Your reasoning as to why the comparison would fail is that potions cost more than bullets,

I'm talking about your comparison with MAGIC, Moon Moon. The fact you're even mentioned bullets to try to pose as if you were talking about a different comparison is laughable.

[Triceron]

There is. I even pointed one out: mounts are waiting somewhere around you, and you call them to you, through whatever means your mount has been trained to respond to. A whistle, clap of hands, calling its name, etc. Suspension of disbelief is used when there is no explanation as the process or reason of a given event, 'magic' being the most obvious example.

You are talking about the class abilities. None of the physical ones have explanations for unlimited access, therefore sudpension of disbelief.

[SinR]

My speculation:

Never going to happen.

[DotEleven]

There is. I even pointed one out: mounts are waiting somewhere around you, and you call them to you, through whatever means your mount has been trained to respond to. A whistle, clap of hands, calling its name, etc. Suspension of disbelief is used when there is no explanation as the process or reason of a given event, 'magic' being the most obvious example.


I'm not talking about professions as their in-game feature 'player profession'.

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I'm talking about your comparison with MAGIC, Moon Moon. The fact you're even mentioned bullets to try to pose as if you were talking about a different comparison is laughable.

Which comparison to magic, that it's possible for them to use magic to somehow supplement the alchemical potion as well? I mean, are you saying that tinkers aren't allowed access to magic? That showing that magic has a way of influencing the design of a spell dependent on where it's from, showing that the application is just as important as what it's made of? IE: A fire spell from the arcane is a mage spell, a fire spell from fel is a warlock spell, and a fire spell from the elements is a shaman spell which shows that yes although using alchemy as a basis, putting the mixture into a technically engineered syringe and firing it from a gun to target the wound turns what would be an alchemical spell into a technical one much like how summoning fire from fel instead of arcane makes it a warlock instead of a mage spell?

Or once again are you just too stubborn, troll, or dumb now that it's been fully laid out for you again for the umpteenth time?

Or maybe you need me to put it all in gigantic letters so your brain can comprehend the specific parts that make my comparison completely legit?

PS, once again, the bullets mentioned are because you like to have this belief that a class can't have outside help and thus they don't have to be self-sufficient. Which is once again factually wrong.

[avitush]

4 specs. Gnomes/goblins only, and they wear mech suits specific to each spec. Very steampunk themed overall.

I'm not creative enough to come up with names for all of them, but here are my thoughts:

- Ranged DPS that uses stuff like machine guns, rockets, and maybe crossbows.

- Melee DPS that uses stuff like power fists from Warhammer 40k. A chainsaw could be cool too. Or it could just use the standard melee weapons that are available to other classes, but I just think it'd be cool for the tinker to have something unique.

- Healer that uses stuff similar to the medic gun from Starcraft. Maybe also something like a "healing grenade" that drops green stuff on the ground that heals nearby players who stand in it while also doing small amounts of damage to enemies who stand in it. Could also have a couple of utility/buff options.

- Tank that's basically all about armor plating. Focuses on heavy armor, maybe a shield generator, and various weapons. A melee-range flamethrower attack would be cool for this.

These could all be fleshed out far more than what I've listed, of course, but that's my start. If 4 specs seems OP, I feel like the healing option could probably be dropped.

edit: you could maybe have playable races other than gnomes/goblins, now that I think about it. Lore wise, I don't think it'd work for some races that aren't as fond of technology (night elves, tauren, etc), but maybe dwarves, humans, forsaken, and orcs could be a good fit.

[DotEleven]

4 specs. Gnomes/goblins only, and they wear mech suits specific to each spec. Very steampunk themed overall.

I'm not creative enough to come up with names for all of them, but here are my thoughts:

- Ranged DPS that uses stuff like machine guns, rockets, and maybe crossbows.

- Melee DPS that uses stuff like power fists from Warhammer 40k. A chainsaw could be cool too. Or it could just use the standard melee weapons that are available to other classes, but I just think it'd be cool for the tinker to have something unique.

- Healer that uses stuff similar to the medic gun from Starcraft. Maybe also something like a "healing grenade" that drops green stuff on the ground that heals nearby players who stand in it while also doing small amounts of damage to enemies who stand in it. Could also have a couple of utility/buff options.

- Tank that's basically all about armor plating. Focuses on heavy armor, maybe a shield generator, and various weapons. A melee-range flamethrower attack would be cool for this.

These could all be fleshed out far more than what I've listed, of course, but that's my start. If 4 specs seems OP, I feel like the healing option could probably be dropped.

edit: you could maybe have playable races other than gnomes/goblins, now that I think about it. Lore wise, I don't think it'd work for some races that aren't as fond of technology (night elves, tauren, etc), but maybe dwarves, humans, forsaken, and orcs could be a good fit.

I think Draenai would make pretty good light empowered tinkers, sorta like the lightforged warframe.

[Ielenia]

You are talking about the class abilities. None of the physical ones have explanations for unlimited access, therefore sudpension of disbelief.

And my opinion is that a healing spec would either depend way too much on alchemy to the point of being an actual alchemy spec, not a technology spec, or would break suspension of disbelief for me due to the considerable amount of all different resources it'd have to acquire outside its own skill set to power their tech.

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Which comparison to magic, that it's possible for them to use magic to somehow supplement the alchemical potion as well?

Can you show any example of potions appearing out of nowhere after a spell being cast that specifically creates potions?

I mean, are you saying that tinkers aren't allowed access to magic?

That's the whole point of a technology class.

ecause you like to have this belief that a class can't have outside help

That was never my argument. Go read it again.

Which is once again factually wrong.

Yes, you are.