Tinker's spec speculation. What's yours?

[DotEleven]

And engineers will make bots that don't do anything, because they can't make potions. That's the problem, here. Classes are supposed to be self-sufficient for the most part. Having to buy several different types of potions by the bulk almost on a daily basis is not being "self-sufficient".

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Who said anything about "overlap"? The issue isn't "overlap", but how classes are self-sufficient for the most part.

They can be supplied with potions elswhere. Not everything has to come from the person itself. It's mostly about the administration.

Classes are far from self-sufficient. As someone said, we had quite a time when people needed reagents from people. Rogues had to buy poisons from an apothecary (Ooh Rogue's can't make their own. Wait, poisons are chemicals, this is alchemical kind of stuff, how dare they, remove this now! How dare rogues try to take this away from alchemists!), Druids needed a reagent to cast Rebirth, Mages needed reagents to cast Portals, Shamans needed ankhs to reincarnate, and Hunters needed to purchase or go engineer and make their own ammo.

[Skulltaker]

I couldn't universally answer for them, but really neither could you or anyone else that isn't Blizz. It really comes down more to what lore Blizz chooses to bring in and lean on. But because it isn't a universal answer set up in lore at this point (to my knowledge at least), I'm not sure why engineers making guns would be a stopping point. In your case where that's part of how you see them, you might want engineering as a profession. In mine where I see them likely to mess with various chemical reagents, I'd likely steer more towards alchemy.

Of course. I don't think Blizz couldn't make it work if they wanted. But I get the feeling that they'd rather pick up something more... magical. Dunno.

[Ielenia]

Not really, that's actually only for the sake of convenience. How many classes used to have to buy reagents? Priest, mage, paladin, hunter had ammo, rogue had poisons, shaman, I think druid... maybe lock? Point is a lot of classes had RPG elements where they needed to obtain supplies outside their class toolkit to be able to perform their job. And that was only removed to make things convenient. So a tinker theoretically buying potions from alchemists off screen wouldn't really change anything that other classes don't already theoretically do.

Hence the "for the most part" part of my argumentation. And the reagents they had to buy, back then, were basically dirty cheap. At max, as far as I remember, a few silver, and considering the abilities that used reagents weren't used often, at BEST once per combat, it makes those expenses negligible.

Buying potions by bulk, on the other hand, would not have a negligible cost, especially when you're supposed to use many, many potions worth of healing per fight.

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If you take a look at Brewmaster's kit, most of their signature abilities are actually brews and elixirs produced by cooks. Hunter's signature abilities are engineered devices like explosives and traps, animal venom, and magically enhanced arrows.

Those are simple, basic things. The hunter's traps and bombs are very basic. And the 'arcane arrow' thing is almost a cantrip in its complexity.

Anyway, no one is saying that tinkers should be all about alchemical concoctions. There are other possibilities like healing probes/bots, healing rays and whatnot. They could even take advantage of the recent story developments and make use of the azerite-powered technology.

And those "healing probes/bots" would be using alchemical compounds to do the healing.

Just an afterthought. Even if the healing spec was indeed all about alchemical stuff, that would still be "alchemy through technology" type of gameplay, which is fine in my book.

It wouldn't in mine, since I'd prefer the class to be consistent to its theme, and alchemy is not technology. That'd feel like giving a "weapon master" kind of class like the warrior a spellcaster spec.

[Teriz]

And said robot will do nothing but shoot air without alchemy, which the engineer is not skilled at.

You're assuming that the Robot is using chemicals instead of energy (it's called a beam, not a stream), and that an engineer couldn't simply purchase the chemical elsewhere.

No, it's not irrelevant. It is very relevant. A key point, even.

It's quite irrelevant because this standard you're trying to make applies no where else.

Except the difference is that we had little to no presence of monks around WoW, whereas, with technology and alchemy, you've seen those practically all around Azeroth wherever goblins and gnomes gather.

What's your definition of little to no presence? There were Monks within the Scarlet Crusade, Undead Monks in Stratholme, Auchenai Monks in Outland, and a Blood Elf Monk named Eramas Brightblaze. None of them could heal.

Two examples. Considering the many, many other examples of "artificers" being jewelcrafters, I imagine those being the exception rather than the norm.

That would be because Draenei have been in the game far longer than Nightborne. That doesn't change the fact that Nightborne Artificers are not jewel crafters, yet are still Artificers.

[Ielenia]

Then you should consider paying attention to what's already in the game. All three specs are already there. You can see them in Island Expeditions in particular.

Yeah... The """"healer"""" that has one single healing ability out of seven. One. Out of seven. Looks more like a DPS with a healing ability than a "healer spec" per se.

[Nnyco]

I assume each spec will have some turrets but dps specialises on em, while tank rides a mech.

[Ielenia]

Classes are far from self-sufficient.

Why do everyone keep ignoring the "for the most part" part of what I wrote?

As someone said, we had quite a time when people needed reagents from people. Rogues had to buy poisons from an apothecary (Ooh Rogue's can't make their own. Wait, poisons are chemicals, this is alchemical kind of stuff, how dare they, remove this now! How dare rogues try to take this away from alchemists!), Druids needed a reagent to cast Rebirth, Mages needed reagents to cast Portals, Shamans needed ankhs to reincarnate, and Hunters needed to purchase or go engineer and make their own ammo.

Yeah. And you know what the differences here are? Those reagents were used seldomly. At most, once per battle. At most. On top of that, the reagents were dirty cheap.

On the other hand, the "tech healer" would have to use the potions he requires several times during each fight, and potions aren't anywhere as cheap as the aforementioned reagents were.

[Izalla]

Hence the "for the most part" part of my argumentation. And the reagents they had to buy, back then, were basically dirty cheap. At max, as far as I remember, a few silver, and considering the abilities that used reagents weren't used often, at BEST once per combat, it makes those expenses negligible.

Buying potions by bulk, on the other hand, would not have a negligible cost, especially when you're supposed to use many, many potions worth of healing per fight.

My point is that it's not really the roadblock you seem to feel it is. It would just be assumed they get their potions from alchemists the way hunters are assumed to get their ammo from blacksmiths.

[Teriz]

Yes, he could. It's a decent fantasy aswell. I've had characters in Pen&Paper that followed a similar narrative. But then, how would the Tinker be able to do so, and the Engineer wouldn't?

Because every Engineer isn't a Tinker. A Tinker as defined by the Warcraft hero is an engineering genius ala Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, and/or Thermaplugg. Again just like in Iron Man when Obidiah Stane asked why his engineers couldn't reproduce the Arc Reactor when Tony Stark did it inside a cave which a bunch of scraps, they meekly responded that they couldn't do it because they're not on the same level of engineering genius as Tony Stark.

A Tauren taking up engineering isn't going to be on the same level as Mekkatorque or Helix Blackfuse. Just like a Warrior taking up Enchanting will never be on the level of a Khadgar or Jaina.

I know Tinker has a lot of fans. But I think that they might set themselves up for disappointment if they expect the class. Same has been said about Demon Hunters, of course, but they have a certain... epic feel to them. Something unique. A Tinker would just feel like a hunter that picked up engineering. Maybe it's just me.

Yep it's just you. Hunters can't pilot mech suits into battle for example, and for many that's a huge selling point for a Tinker class.

[Izalla]

Why do everyone keep ignoring the "for the most part" part of what I wrote?

We aren't ignoring it, we are pointing out that it's no different, because for the most part this concept of a tinker healer people are putting forth is also self sufficient.

[Teriz]

Yeah. And you know what the differences here are? Those reagents were used seldomly. At most, once per battle. At most. On top of that, the reagents were dirty cheap.

On the other hand, the "tech healer" would have to use the potions he requires several times during each fight, and potions aren't anywhere as cheap as the aforementioned reagents were.

Hunters used their arrows/bullets (some laced with various poisons) seldomly?

[Ielenia]

You're assuming that the Robot is using chemicals instead of energy (it's called a beam, not a stream), and that an engineer couldn't simply purchase the chemical elsewhere.

And you're assuming the "beam" wouldn't be charged with the alchemic properties of the concoction. And you're also assuming the engineer would be also dirty rich to buy potions by bulk on a nearly daily basis.

It's quite irrelevant because this standard you're trying to make applies no where else.

It doesn't because of reasons I stated. Other classes use cheap reagents.

What's your definition of little to no presence? There were Monks within the Scarlet Crusade, Undead Monks in Stratholme, Auchenai Monks in Outland, and a Blood Elf Monk named Eramas Brightblaze. None of them could heal.

Well, then. Are you going to claim that suddenly, out of nowhere, we'll find out a completely new and innovative and completely different type of technology than we have already in the world of Azeroth, like it happened for the monk? Since the monk class is the "oriental" style of Monk in RPG, while the other monks we had so far in WoW were based on the western type. And before you say anything about that, Mechagon does not count because from all images we have from it, including the mecha-gnomes, all that technology looks just like the normal tech we already have around.

That would be because Draenei have been in the game far longer than Nightborne. That doesn't change the fact that Nightborne Artificers are not jewel crafters, yet are still Artificers.

Then let me know when they're no longer the exception.

[Izalla]

Hunters used their arrows/bullets (some laced with various poisons) seldomly?

He also seems to be thinking that the spec would actually have to buy the potions from an alchemist instead of my point that it would be assumed background details, since he keeps pointing out the potions made by player characters are more expensive than vendor items were.

[Ielenia]

My point is that it's not really the roadblock you seem to feel it is. It would just be assumed they get their potions from alchemists the way hunters are assumed to get their ammo from blacksmiths.

I'm just saying that a "tech class healer spec" would feel like it depends too much from alchemy to not simply be "alchemy with some tech". Hence why I believe the class would be tank/dps/dps.

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We aren't ignoring it, we are pointing out that it's no different, because for the most part this concept of a tinker healer people are putting forth is also self sufficient.

Not if it heavily depends on alchemy like it's being proposed.

[KainneAbsolute]

Tank - A character using a mech. Mail armor user if the mech is destroyed.
Ranged DPS - dual pistols/crossbow + turrets and gadjets (like the demon hunter of diablo 3). Mail armor user.
Healer - drones + alchemy. Mail armor user.

[Triceron]

Who said anything about "overlap"? The issue isn't "overlap", but how classes are self-sufficient for the most part.

Why wouldn't any class be self sufficient? Even Hunters forgoed having to buy Ammo at some point for the purpose of making the game easier to manage. I don't see why they would arbitrarily make a Tinker class buy or create their ammo. They just have unlimited at their disposal.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Yeah... The """"healer"""" that has one single healing ability out of seven. One. Out of seven. Looks more like a DPS with a healing ability than a "healer spec" per se.

Tell yourself what you need to kiddo to convince yourself that you're not wrong. But regardless of that self-delusion, you are wrong. Very, very wrong. (And good job at only looking at one of the healer tinkers in the game.)

[Izalla]

I'm just saying that a "tech class healer spec" would feel like it depends too much from alchemy to not simply be "alchemy with some tech". Hence why I believe the class would be tank/dps/dps.

I think people are throwing out a few different versions, some seem to be about energy beams? Anyway, in the end Blizzard will put it whatever they feel like regardless of who does or doesn't like it. I'm not particularly interested in tinkers beyond the class fantasy it would have with gnomes. No class right now suits gnome the way tinker would. It's like a night elf druid or a blood elf mage. I don't really have a dog in this race besides that haha

[DotEleven]

Why do everyone keep ignoring the "for the most part" part of what I wrote?


Yeah. And you know what the differences here are? Those reagents were used seldomly. At most, once per battle. At most. On top of that, the reagents were dirty cheap.

On the other hand, the "tech healer" would have to use the potions he requires several times during each fight, and potions aren't anywhere as cheap as the aforementioned reagents were.

I don't know, I remember needing to use a TON of ammo as a hunter.

And the reason everyone keeps bringing it up is it shows a precedent. You say "for the most part" but that's 5 classes that used outside means for their class.

And you act like healing potions can't be dirt cheap.

And once again, you continue to ignore the administrating part of it. The tech involved in the delivery system. The syringes and firing mechanism, the grenade to drop the biotic antidote, the sprayer for the healing gas.

[Izalla]

Not if it heavily depends on alchemy like it's being proposed.

Also, in regards to this, does it more heavily depend on alchemy or tinkering if the chemical is just the bullet and the gun and everything else about the delivery system is a tinkered object?