Minimum Wage Cranks: Wrong About Seattle

[Daelak]

I'm not underpaid, in fact my "job" isn't even my main income stream, as is the case with many people in their 40s who aren't fuckups. My minimum wage days were from the ages of 16-17. I'm perfectly fine with a higher minimum wage that makes demonstrable economic sense, and I'm perfectly fine with a company making decisions on who they want to pay that to, if anyone, at any given time.

You are underpaid, using any quantifiable economic metric that shows the divergence between wage growth and productivity.

And good, a $15/hr minimum wage is better, but it's still a sub-optimal floor that will continue to be a burden on state/federal welfare programs. But as others have said in this thread, the next iteration ideally should be a UBI to remove both problems.

[Unholyground]

Its all the pot heads that rushed to Washington for the legal weed. The IQ of the state has significantly dropped. Note the slope of the graph goes up about the same time pot was legalized in 2012.

Well on average, people who smoke it actually have an increase in intellect I have experienced this personally in myself and in many friends. Only people who smoke all day every day would see a drop in intellect.

[Ragedaug]

We all understood what you were trying to say. It was wrong when you said it and it’s still wrong when he says it.

Sure, but instead of saying, "you're wrong and here's why", they said, "you're a troll trying to inflame people and you know you are being disingenuous".

Can you see the difference in those responses and why the latter is not helpful at all in forwarding a conversation?

here, I found one...and it was you who said it...

You know why and you're being deliberately obtuse, so I'm going to go ahead and pass on this one, chief.

[schwank05]

What happened to jobs that made $15 an hour before the min wage hike? Did they see an increase?

Nope, so then all the new hires that don't know shit will all the sudden be making what the 10 year veteran makes so his productivity will go down, because why work hard when you will make the same money doing any other job at all. Then the cycle of turnover will start and businesses will fail because there is no incentives to work hard at all because all the people working base jobs will now get $5.00+ pay raises and businesses will need to leave veterans where they were because their payroll budget just tripled for the low level unskilled jobs.

[Captain N]

What happened to jobs that made $15 an hour before the min wage hike? Did they see an increase?

Most usually do or they open the door to negotiations for those employees.

I've been saying for years that when Chicago boosted its minimum wage to $13/hour I got a 13% raise in my own salary over the same amount of time as the minimum wage hike. Coupled with my yearly cost of living increase I went from $500/day to $620/day. An increase of about $13/hour over the last few years. However I belong to a very good union that not only bolstered my pay as a 10 year veteran but the new hires went from an on-average $50,000/year starting salary to about $60,000 give or take the job they work.

It's insane that think employers will refuse to pay good employees more money if they can simply walk out the door and go to their local fast food joint or grocery store and make the same amount of money. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't understand that a move like this gives employees more negotiating power if they are not fortunate enough to belong to organized labor.

[Endus]

It's insane that think employers will refuse to pay good employees more money if they can simply walk out the door and go to their local fast food joint or grocery store and make the same amount of money. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't understand that a move like this gives employees more negotiating power if they are not fortunate enough to belong to organized labor.

It's not even a difficult concept.

How did you get your current pay level? By having in-demand skills that provided you an edge in pay negotiations, allowing you to expect more. It has nothing to do with level of training; this is why someone with an MA in 17th Century French Literature works as a barista at Starbucks for just above min wage, while someone with a welding certification is likely making way more.

The idea that you'd just magically not be able to negotiate your wage after a minimum wage increase is . . . nonsense.

If wages didn't scale up with minimum wage increases, doctors and lawyers would make minimum wage, today. Because their salaries in the '30s were lower than minimum wages are today, ignoring inflation. Clearly, that's not the case, because this whole idea that wages won't adjust is poppycock.

[munkeyinorbit]

How many of the smaller shops had to cut employee hours to stay in the black? Were average hours worked affected at all by the min wage increase? ive not seen any data reflecting this stat.

It's called capitalism. If your business can't survive in the environment it is in then you deserve to close. Another business will take it's place.

[RickJamesLich]

Hmm... perhaps there are other factors at play in Seattle, such as the cities economy? The OP's article cites statistics about restaurants in Seattle hiring more people since the wage increase went into effect, but for New York city, the minimum wage increase has done the exact opposite:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-res...ke-hitting-15/

"A New York City Hospitality Alliance survey of 574 restaurants showed that 75 percent of full-service restaurants reported plans to reduce employee hours this year in response to the latest mandated wage increase. Another 47 percent said they would eliminate jobs in 2019. Eighty-seven percent of respondents also said they would increase menu prices this year."

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It's called capitalism. Of your business can't survive in the environment it is in then you deserve to close. Another business will take it's place.

The problem is the "another business will take it's place" part. Take a look at Detroit for example, when GM left, no other company took it's place as a place to employ mass amount of Detroit natives, it's really the main reason why the city became a dump.

[buck008]

Sure, but instead of saying, "you're wrong and here's why", they said, "you're a troll trying to inflame people and you know you are being disingenuous".

Can you see the difference in those responses and why the latter is not helpful at all in forwarding a conversation?

here, I found one...and it was you who said it...

You asked a dumb question that wasn’t worth answering because you already knew the answer. I assume you were unsuccessfully trying to set me up for a spike from one of your memorized talking points, but we never made it there. Also, I actually did answer you in literally my very next post when you whined about no one taking you seriously the first time.

[Unholyground]

It's not even a difficult concept.

How did you get your current pay level? By having in-demand skills that provided you an edge in pay negotiations, allowing you to expect more. It has nothing to do with level of training; this is why someone with an MA in 17th Century French Literature works as a barista at Starbucks for just above min wage, while someone with a welding certification is likely making way more.

The idea that you'd just magically not be able to negotiate your wage after a minimum wage increase is . . . nonsense.

If wages didn't scale up with minimum wage increases, doctors and lawyers would make minimum wage, today. Because their salaries in the '30s were lower than minimum wages are today, ignoring inflation. Clearly, that's not the case, because this whole idea that wages won't adjust is poppycock.

Ya we are lucky in Canada in a lot of ways too thankfully. It is by no means perfect but we have it a lot better than the US does.

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The problem is the "another business will take it's place" part. Take a look at Detroit for example, when GM left, no other company took it's place as a place to employ mass amount of Detroit natives, it's really the main reason why the city became a dump.

Poor future planning was also a large part of it, no city that large should become dependent on one industry to keep it thriving.

[Kathandira]

New Jersey should be moving to a $15 minimum wage over the next few years. Once it builds up to $15/hr, i'm very curious to see how it works out. We don't have a huge city like Seattle or New York do, which means we have a ton of small businesses. Small business is already hurting in NJ, and it is only going to hurt even more once this ramps u pto $15/hr over the next few years.

As for what does this mean for those of us who make higher wages? The increase from $8.50/hr to $15/hr is around 75%. I don't see the company I work for increasing my wages by 75%. I'd be making over $50/hr. Not that i'd complain, but this wouldn't really do anything in regards to closing the pay wage gaps between minimum wage earners, and higher wage earners.

[Daelak]

I'm glad you can determine who is objectively "underpaid" without knowing anything about anything. Really swinging for the fences on this one.

If you have been gainfully employed at any time since the early 1970's, you have been underpaid. It's pretty straightforward.

[Endus]

If you have been gainfully employed at any time since the early 1970's, you have been underpaid. It's pretty straightforward.

Should we also point out that in evaluating your real pay, you need to include your commute times and costs?

Unless you're finding some way to make those commutes worthwhile to you for some reason other than going to/from work.

[Nalera]

I think inflation generally seems to outstrip living increases, that's what I think.
But thanks for trying to educate me on the meaning of the word inflation, I hope it 'embiggens' your ego to school me

Now your version of life is great on paper, but in the real world it's just not that simple.

You'd think you can always just 'get another supplier who isn't screwing you', but you cannot always find another supplier who has what you need, or at the same cost/less/isn't also trying to gouge with surcharges. Life ain't that easy.

You can't just fire staff to increase efficiency in SMALL BIZ, you already operate at that line by nature of being a small biz.

As well, you cannot raise your prices past a point, as the local area cannot support increased prices past a point.
That's a socio/geo-economics thing.

I very much DO need to be aware of big biz trying to F me in the A, ON TOP OF two bit socialist AND capitalists, none of them have any compunction about screwing me, or my employees.

Welcome to reality, if this is news to you, you've never talked to anyone in small biz.
You have to stay on top of it all, every day, and you've got to get creative to keep the boat afloat; (my personal approach is to not keep all my eggs in one basket and I've diversified and grown it from just the one company to a few of different natures. This was done out of pocket over years, and they are small and tidy but all roll over a small net consistently) your 'it's simple' ideals just don't cut the mustard on so many levels. If they did, we wouldn't see the current state of things as they are in such a widespread way, over this many years, in so many regions of the entire world.
My staff see where the money is coming in, and where it goes out, they are absolutely aware of the limits and ability our company has in the community we are in.
I'd love to pay them more, they are good, hardworking people, they care about our work and our company.
Truth of the matter is that you can only do so much.

Giving cost of living increases isn't something I disagree with in any way, we all need to have that, and in fact I find that it's detestable that while people do get that, it doesn't match up with the cost of living (yes, also known as inflation...)
While we apparently can't regulate inflation, we could regulate big biz, and that would go a long way to at least hindering and combating unchecked inflation caused by gouging.
Just as I believe we should have stricter regulation on the oil and gas industry.
Both of those would go a long way to taking a lot of pain out of life across socio-economic board, except you know....big biz and the oil industry.

You literally have no idea what your even talking about. Inflation is a symptom of having higher minimum wages because wages are prices, they are the price of labor. And yes you can regulate inflation, it's called not printing money and keeping interest rates at 0% for an entire decade. The federal reserve went through three rounds of quantitative easing after 08' recession, buying up more than 2.5 trillion public and private securities. And contrary to the beliefs of many, a strong booming economy does not increase inflation, and a slowing economy does not lower inflation. Strong economies lower the cost and increase the efficiency of products and services, while a slowing economy loses productivity increasing inflation. And regulating business even more is not going to reduce inflation lmfao, it's going to increase it. It's astonishing to me that so few people actually understand inflation, especially politicians and morons who believe regulating businesses even more is going to fix it. There is a reason nothing is made in America anymore, it's because the costs of hiring man-power and materials is so over inflated.

[Shadowferal]

meh...the failure of capitalism is that inflation rates never match wage increases...so eventually the system will begin to collapse on itself since then people won't be able to afford much beyond the basics, and then businesses peddling their high priced shit folds under the weight of their own hubris.

[Fojos]

No, but common logic would dictate that more people have more money to spend, so restaurants would get more business without needing to raise prices at all.

No. Common logic is prices increase and people on minimum wage are stuck at similar levels as before.

[Zan15]

Youre looking at the standard HMO insurance. I opted for the better insurance they offer where I dont have to use in network doctors and do not need referrals for a specialist. Also prior to this contract I had the Highmark PPO option which is no longer offered. Ever since Obama care was passed my costs increase every year so that people who refuse to buy insurance can get healthcare

Magically before obamacare your plan was the only one in America that never went up...right

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Hmm... perhaps there are other factors at play in Seattle, such as the cities economy? The OP's article cites statistics about restaurants in Seattle hiring more people since the wage increase went into effect, but for New York city, the minimum wage increase has done the exact opposite:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-res...ke-hitting-15/

"A New York City Hospitality Alliance survey of 574 restaurants showed that 75 percent of full-service restaurants reported plans to reduce employee hours this year in response to the latest mandated wage increase. Another 47 percent said they would eliminate jobs in 2019. Eighty-seven percent of respondents also said they would increase menu prices this year."

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The problem is the "another business will take it's place" part. Take a look at Detroit for example, when GM left, no other company took it's place as a place to employ mass amount of Detroit natives, it's really the main reason why the city became a dump.

The opposite has not occurred sinceas stated in your quote..."they plan too".

That was also said in just about every other min wage situation

[Logwyn]

It's called capitalism. If your business can't survive in the environment it is in then you deserve to close. Another business will take it's place.

Depends on the industry and market. Not every industry lends itself to entering the market easily.

[Endus]

No. Common logic is prices increase and people on minimum wage are stuck at similar levels as before.

Given that what you said doesn't really happen, at least not as an effect of minimum wage hikes, it isn't "common logic" at all.

Do we really need to go through how price increases cannot proportionally rise with wages, unless you introduce a third factor, again? Because that's basic grade school mathematics.

[Logwyn]

How many of the smaller shops had to cut employee hours to stay in the black? Were average hours worked affected at all by the min wage increase? ive not seen any data reflecting this stat.

I heard somewhere that for Amazon to pay everyone at Amazon at least 15/hour they would need to raise their prices across the board $.01 to maintain their current revenue level. I think I can afford an extra penny so everyone at Amazon can be paid 15/hour.

(Also note Amazon and federal taxes not owning any federal income tax for what is it two years now...)