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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    Again semantics. I'm not here to argue with you over what you think words mean.
    Arguments use words. Words do not mean what you decide on the spur of the moment they mean. If you discard meanings, you are left with feelings, although that's what you been subsituting anyway.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    Arguments use words. Words do not mean what you decide on the spur of the moment they mean. If you discard meanings, you are left with feelings, although that's what you been subsituting anyway.
    In the sense that I will not argue with you over what you feel that words mean I agree.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Keep voting until the desired outcome is silly. But once sufficient time has passed and/or conditions have changed, by all means, have a new vote or adapt your legislation. The debate is now... is 2 years and a buttload of new "X won't work outside the EU" enough to warrant a new vote? Or as some may put it, the first proper vote? I think a case could easily be made. The 2016 vote kinda took everyone by surprise in that it came about and how badly it was executed from the remain side. There was more misinformation floating around than actual, helpful information about how intertwined the UK and EU actually are and how many things depend on EU membership by now.
    The beautiful thing is that it's already too late for a new referendum. The Brexit deadline passes at the end of March. And it would take months to issue a new referendum. So unless a miracle happens and EU grants UK an extension on the negotiations (which is unlikely, because despite that being a part of Article 50, neither side didn't even mention it all that much throughout the process), UK will be out before they can get a new vote.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    They demanded a new vote less then a minute from losing...

    They voted leave if democracy is to mean anything they leave...
    There's absolutely nothing about democracy that prohibits a second vote on the same issue. Especially since the circumstances about Brexit changed significantly, which makes it hard to say it's the same issue anymore. Especially^2 given the fact that the 2016 referendum isn't binding for the UK government in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    We shouldn't have to vote until the side that feels slighted wins. I hate to point out your hypocrisy but if they voted remain you would not be offering this olive branch.
    Maybe because the remain campaign wasn't deliberately misleading (or even outright lying on some occasions). You know, unlike the leave campaign, that was exposed to be a bunch of crap in 2346023852 different ways since the referendum. If people voted leave under false pretenses because people like Farage sold them abject bullshit, their vote isn't exactly valid, is it now? You trying to force the first vote in light of misleading campaign causing people to vote under false pretenses is much more undemocratic than issuing a new referendum.

    On top of that, the British government, once it got down to Brexit negotiations, assured the UK population that their awesomesauce negotiators will get UK a fantastic deal. Now the UK is facing the prospect of Brexit with no deal, with all the chaos that will ensue from that. So not only do we have a case of the population being mislead, we also have a significant change in circumstances.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    You're not reading what I've written. I've said I don't support the breakaway group. I admire the courage of the TIG MPs but that their actions are purely symbolic as we don't have a form of proportional representation.

    Until we ditch FPTP I do not want centrists to leave either the Tories or Labour.

    It's you who's saying you want to expel them.

    Also, "we are not going to be blackmailed by the minority". Ummm... I hadn't realised the hard left were the majority. Name the MPs? Or are they unimportant - you're referring to the membership?
    You're viewpoint is naive. FPTP is the only thing holding the 2 major parties together. Neither is going to sacrifice their position of power in case the other remains intact and stays in power for good. If you want rid of FPTP tearing Labour and Conservative parties apart simultaneiusly is almost definitely the best way to go about it

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Mighty Tim View Post
    Again semantics. I'm not here to argue with you over what you think words mean.
    It's not what @Flarelaine merely thinks words mean. It's what they mean, period. The UK system rests on the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The UK government is not bound by anything. Including referendums. Referendums in UK political system are only advisory. If the government wanted to, they could cancel Brexit today and have each member publicly wipe their ass with a copy of the referendum vote. And it wouldn't be any more of a treason than them drinking water. You're talking out of your ass, you got called out on talking out of your ass and you're trying to deflect from that with some nonsense about semantics.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    You're viewpoint is naive. FPTP is the only thing holding the 2 major parties together. Neither is going to sacrifice their position of power in case the other remains intact and stays in power for good. If you want rid of FPTP tearing Labour and Conservative parties apart simultaneiusly is almost definitely the best way to go about it
    At a time of national crisis, no, I don't think the best thing to do is to exacerbate division. I'm not looking at the situation and saying, ah this is a great opportunity to get PR. I'm looking at the situation and thinking, there will be rioting on the streets in just over a month's time. One crisis at a time, eh?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    There's absolutely nothing about democracy that prohibits a second vote on the same issue.
    Ain't that the truth. After all, there are periodic elections in democracies, even though the people had chosen before. Several times, in fact.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    Yes, I agree completely.

    And in my opinion the solution isn't to embrace the hard left it's to e.g., support and uphold supranational bodies like the EU that have the will and the power to combat the worst excesses of the free market. Anti Tax Avoidance Directive etc. Who will benefit from the UK not having to adhere to that? Oh wait, it won't be the middle classes will it.

    Got to go now to get some actual work done, earn some money / pay my taxes / redistribution of wealth and all that.
    The leftist argumwnt against that would be that just because the EU is supranational it doesn't prevent it colluding with big business and it definitely doesn't stop big business playing one governing body off against another to gain a competitive advantage as they are always going to do under capitalist economic models.

    The objection is more systemic, that the Hierachical organisations and fundamental models of world social and economic governance are simply not capable of delivering a just economy.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's not what @Flarelaine merely thinks words mean. It's what they mean, period. The UK system rests on the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The UK government is not bound by anything. Including referendums. Referendums in UK political system are only advisory. If the government wanted to, they could cancel Brexit today and have each member publicly wipe their ass with a copy of the referendum vote. And it wouldn't be any more of a treason than them drinking water. You're talking out of your ass, you got called out on talking out of your ass and you're trying to deflect from that with some nonsense about semantics.
    I would be talking it of my ass if that was what I said luckily it wasn't.

    On the second vote. I can't find myself able to agree on it base on my own principles. I can agree both sides lied through their teeth even if for the most part it was by admission. I don't wholly believe that either side was that blind to what the issue entailed though.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    At a time of national crisis, no, I don't think the best thing to do is to exacerbate division. I'm not looking at the situation and saying, ah this is a great opportunity to get PR. I'm looking at the situation and thinking, there will be rioting on the streets in just over a month's time. One crisis at a time, eh?
    Only at a time of crisis is there opportunity to change political systems.

  11. #151

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    How nice of them to purge themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Trump did it so it's good. I put my faith in a strong political figure because I lack self-esteem and feel threatened by a changing world. Whoever stands against him is bad because I do not understand their arguments and I have a simple tribalistic mindset created through the consumption of right-wing media.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    How nice of them to purge themselves.
    Spoken like a true Stalinist. Off to the gulags with them!

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    Spoken like a true Stalinist. Off to the gulags with them!
    Yeah, how dare I not like liberals is a soc dem/dem soc party!
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Trump did it so it's good. I put my faith in a strong political figure because I lack self-esteem and feel threatened by a changing world. Whoever stands against him is bad because I do not understand their arguments and I have a simple tribalistic mindset created through the consumption of right-wing media.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    At a time of national crisis, no, I don't think the best thing to do is to exacerbate division. I'm not looking at the situation and saying, ah this is a great opportunity to get PR. I'm looking at the situation and thinking, there will be rioting on the streets in just over a month's time. One crisis at a time, eh?
    I'm just being pragmatic about it.

    While Labour and Conservatives are generally signed up to that 'broad church' nonsense you are not getting rid of FPTP. No chance. None.

  16. #156
    Legendary! Zelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty Shadow Priest View Post
    Spoken like a true Stalinist. Off to the gulags with them!
    Austin is a nasty racist, even TIG won't touch him he's that toxic.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelk View Post
    Austin is a nasty racist, even TIG won't touch him he's that toxic.
    Is there any evidence that Ian Austin is a nasty racist? (Looking at his voting record this doesn't seem to be the case) But if he is why he was allowed to act as a Labour MP for 14 years?
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-02-23 at 12:34 AM.

  18. #158
    Legendary! Zelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Is there any evidence that Ian Austin is a nasty racist? (Looking at his voting record this doesn't seem to be the case) But if he is why he was allowed to act as a Labour MP for 14 years?
    https://twitter.com/simonk_133/statu...78618619518976

    https://twitter.com/IanAustinMP/stat...59731618648064

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...GxGxIz-9QQZCBg

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    I'm just being pragmatic about it.

    While Labour and Conservatives are generally signed up to that 'broad church' nonsense you are not getting rid of FPTP. No chance. None.
    If anything getting rid of FPTP for AV would make things worse. Because all that happens is the 3rd largest party gains disproportionate power by becoming the kingmaker.

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