One of the big problem with WoW nowadays is the lack of sense of progress

[Elias01]

the scaling stops around 340, if you have "gear" you can faceroll all the world content save the elite mobs without issue, and the elite ones *might* require you to press a defensive

heroic daz and normal daz are like night and day tbh, bosses in normal lose complete phases/abilities. Like, no frog in conclave is huge.

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You clearly don't want to do anything in game but complain on forums.

newsflash, be it a mount, or an achievment, it's all pixels.

No it isnt. People would care more if there would be some exclusive cosmetic sets or mounts. Achievement is nothing but gear? Thats complete different story. Why you think mahe tower was sucesfull? Becouse it was fun? Hell no. People did it becouse it had cool looking exclusive weapon looks what got removed with new expansion. Legion proved you wrong.

[rohoz]

No it isnt. People would care more if there would be some exclusive cosmetic sets or mounts. Achievement is nothing but gear? Thats complete different story. Why you think mahe tower was sucesfull? Becouse it was fun? Hell no. People did it becouse it had cool looking exclusive weapon looks what got removed with new expansion. Legion proved you wrong.

so you are somehow saying that a cosmetic reward in a game is... not pixels?
ok breh.

Also, shittons of people farm things like "insane" for nothing but titles. Please slow down and use a proper translator or spellcheck yourself or something

[siskokid21]

There is no such thing as a big bad enemy, who is powerful, I just do some raid finder and kill the big bad guy like Gul'Dan in 1 min taking 0 dmg.

LFR is meant to be easy, the real progression is in mythic as it has always been.

[Elias01]

so you are somehow saying that a cosmetic reward in a game is... not pixels?
ok breh.

Also, shittons of people farm things like "insane" for nothing but titles. Please slow down and use a proper translator or spellcheck yourself or something

No i am saying that nobady cares about achievements and say achievements are on same level of reward as gear or mount is dumbd. Achievement is hidden bar in your own interface. Gear is something what you see all the time which nakes you care about it more than achievements. So if raids or any other casual content actuly had sone sort of exclusive cosmetic items players would be far more interested in playing game.

This game need more mage towers, challenge mod gear, etc...

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LFR is meant to be easy, the real progression is in mythic as it has always been.

Vannila didnt had mythic raiding so it wasnt always like that. People dont care about mythic it is same content as lfr and as long as it will stay that way you can call mythic real progresion as you want. Players wont care to push it.

[rohoz]

Compelling argument as per usual rohoz.

You don't have a point, dunno why you're running with the belief that you deserve a counter-argument.

You know what, FIFA isn't a sports game anymore. There.

[Alkizon]

And yet nothing helps, thread still moved out on battles of two parties, which can't agree with existence difference between content and progress for current game design. It shouldn't be, yes, but by a silly coincidence of circumstances now these are two completely different independent concepts in game and this is one of the main problems. You can deny it many times, you can beat your head against the wall, but content have separate progress now (it should be caled "story-mode" in current system) and original "progress" is meaningless in current design, there is no connection between these two.

We dealt with this many times when we were arguing about M+ and about modern raids design (+(+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+/+(+/+/+)).

...but I tried to prevent it, really tried.

---

In response to one that offered "to have watch YouTube", so it should be these “lazy” people who should go watch YouTube, instead of demanding own conditional “participation” in content-progress as a single integral part of design, but it's not there, in order to please these people - it doesn't exist anymore (but don't think that I blame them, no, just devs' unoriginality and softness (greed?), they're just like everyone - circumstances' slaves, conditions' hostages).

Mmm... I almost forgot, that friend already said same stuff years ago, looks like another curse

I don't know how much they'll hold at current pace, but I don't see future in this system. Those who are lazy or unable to meet necessary conditions can see all material on youtube/wowhead (you have no excuse for any artificially palliated material <url>|<url> yeah, it's should be almost all game content with "Karazhan?" approach (at least 1-2 hours to pass) and much more RPG+СС mechanics). Game with similar approach <url> (history proves that doesn't work, I can confirm that because live here) just suppress motivation, examples:

and then goes some eg.

Progress is useless when it doesn't require anything from the player and is stupid/devoid of emotionally meaning/isn't part of curiosity motivation when there is no its connection with content for game like this one. It's deprived of such simple, but at the same time complex and important uniqueness/necessity in statement "I was there! I killed these bosses! I died here and there! I went and looked at all these pixels with my direct participation! I'm able and deserve This part of Content! And all of you can continue to watch it on your retarded YouTube!" You kill one of the most motivated game's social part - let's call them conditionally "RPG-munchkins" (it's not about hardcore I'm talking here, as some might think, but in applied strength and resources in achieving specific goal). Many of these people are rare @$$holes (not all, but many, strictly speaking, each of us hides small, grumbling egoist, whom psychologists often call simply “ego”, someone is able to control it, and others don't, but community has dial with it quite well before, unlike in current social system), but game is greatly powered by their/this your part's energy, you can't deny it. Don't forget this isn't single/session game like FPS or MOBA (gameplay of which in many ways is exactly their content *looking with laugh at WoW's current sociodynamics*, don't you find anything alike? FPS/action-munchkins? E-sports?), this is world with its own history and it has always been main feature and motivation to participate in it in general, all your Diablo-like stupidity is useless without it (how many of those "casuals", about whom company often likes to remember lately, who passed fifth act (DII) of first difficulty, went further? and what about second difficulty? could be only if with another character - they saw game, they don't need it anymore (could be else only since talent's system requires more experience *again looking with laugh at WoW's current one*), so everything further is only for progress, as dumping stats in MU, but even in this seemingly silly grind game there is an “inaccessible” content that isn't available to everyone/requires certain indicators). Absurdity and rubbish. Last time difficulties were part of content, when they were an element of battle that provided a large grain of information on game story - a separate thread (not else "mode/difficulty") that only those, who're worthy, can advance further, and rest are forced to “j@rk 0ff” looking videos on YouTube, because this part of content isn't available to their characters (fact of your alter ego's presence and participation is important, this is still role-playing game) and they don't have will/skill to overcome this wall.

ps. And mentioning of WotLK by one of participants is especially smiles me, since WotLK is criticized mainly because of this, so no one said it was good, just because exactly this part was one of those bad. People, don't be silly.

[Pua]

I’ve read most of the commentary and it’s sad that the usual contributors are here, grossly simplifying convoluted challenges that this design team isn’t doing a very good job of. As far as Blizzard is concerned, their stance is effectively to just keep expanding content they think players should be involved in. They’re not interested in what people actually want, they’re interested in what they believe they should want.

Look at the five-man content; levelling difficulty, level cap difficulty, Heroic difficulty, Mythic difficulty and Mythic+ difficulty. Is there an actual difference between the performance required in levelling, level cap or Heroic? No? So why on earth are there five difficulty settings for something that doesn’t need them? Then we hit raiding that throws LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic at players after removing the community construct that used to be required. Not enough players involved? Let’s shove quests into raiding content, and make those quests necessary if players want to develop their professions or allied race achievements.

Having a struggle? We can solve that! Let’s shower players in gear that’s laughably easy to obtain, but not guaranteed because it’s ludicrously random. We can make some Azerite gear that’s lower item level, but has a higher Azerite demand to unlock its bits and pieces. Want to build some gear for yourself in a system that used to be individual and deep? Have fun farming raids for a bucketload of time to get the things you need to develop it!

The reason the OP is largely correct is relatively simple; because players have no role. They’re now fully controlled in whatever it is they do, irrespective of what they want to do.

It’s why, despite challenges, Classic will do well.

[nothingsjim]

We need more Mage Tower style content.

We progress too fast nowaday and we don't get the satisfaction from it anymore. In Legion, I look forward to level and gear my alt because I look forward to beating Mage Tower. The process then repeats itself with another class, and so on and on.

Nowaday, we gear up our alts for what really? There's nothing to look forward to.

[Armourboy]

So your main is sitting at 390, when you are supposed to be at 410, with 420 ilvl traits and not 385 ones, yet somehow you feel complete because of a number.

So, because you avoid content that will show you, your character is a pile of useless steaming shit compared to what its supposed to be, its somehow the games fault.

They are handing out gear for free because its irrelevant shitty gear meant to make you catch up with the active population in order to be useful.

Cause same as everything else and every other game the last 5-8 years.

"No one has the time to wait for others".

Get off your high horse because you choose to remain blind with irrelevant content.

No frankly what I should be at is 340, but because they are throwing out 400 ilevel for basically doing nothing why would I waste my time running the same content in two or 3 different modes when they are going to hand it to me anyways? I'm not messing with adjusting my schedule for 10 ilevels.

[Zantera]

I'm really curious about the "run the same content in 2-3 modes" because while 2 makes sense, there should absolutely be 0 reason to do more than 2 modes. If you're a mythic raider only mythic and HC is really relevant. You might clear normal the first week a raid comes out because mythic isn't out yet and doing it once on normal the first week might be worth it, but after that it's definitely not worth it unless you like doing it.

If you're a heroic raider with no plans for mythic then obviously normal becomes more valuable to you but LFR still remains completely useless because it takes a lot longer and the chances of getting a TF of 30 ilvls is so minor that mathematically it's not worth the time.

If you raid normal as your highest tier then LFR might be worth it but that's about it.

Legion was slightly different as all of the difficulties could give you legendaries in case you still missed one of your BiS ones but with BFA it's definitely not worth slogging through 3-4 difficulties of the same raid.

[Nnyco]

If you do somethin on a "higher difficulty" that you couldnt handle before how do you not feel stronger?

[Mighty Tim]

The problem blizzard is having was best simmed up by a webcomics artist.

"They are trying to make a shirt that fits by a giant and a midget. There are simply to many concessions needed to allow a grandmother to play a game to keep her grandson interested in it."

That really has been blizzards problem from arguably mid cata. They can't pick a single group to cater to so they end up catering to none.

[Alkizon]

The problem blizzard is having was best simmed up by a webcomics artist.

"They are trying to make a shirt that fits by a giant and a midget. There are simply to many concessions needed to allow a grandmother to play a game to keep her grandson interested in it."

That really has been blizzards problem from arguably mid cata. They can't pick a single group to cater to so they end up catering to none.

You should use "source" for being polite
Metaphor is very good and funny itself, but people talk about it already very long ago in one sense or another... and still that doesn't help anyway.

[Sencha]

I understand the purpose of catch-up mechanisms, especially in a game where there are less and less players but it has gone too far. Every major patch you can flush all your hard earned gear and start doing the same things again but with higher ilvl rewards. There is no sense of achievement in getting gear.

I could just wait until the last patch of an expansion is released to start playing it and be at par with others in terms of gear.

[Akka]

Did you come up with this on your own? I mean big youtubers have been saying this and people have been regurgitating it for ages, but really unless you're a cutting edge raider you have MORE of a sense of progression and actual progression than you ever did before.

That's complete BS.
You're confusing "progression" with "numbers inflation".

[Aphrel]

i agree. The 30% weekly buff to azerite gain feels awful. It removes any incentive to try and farm it. I disliked it in legion and i dislike it just as much now.

Mythic+ has the same stupid reward strucutre. Where the weekly gives 410 items, while regardless of how high m+ keys i run or how many, my rewards are capped at ilvl 400base..

Warfronts.... yeah, they really dont want us to even try completing it faster than what a group of freshly dinged noobs can....

Same goes for island expeditions. doing 2x pvp silands yield me around 4.7k ap +whatever the bonus from the mission is.

Whereas every island i do from there on gives 350ap. thats 15% of the efficiency of the 2 first.. id need to do 14 more islands just to double my gain from the first 2...

That is a real bummer. It feels like blizzard have this big elastic rope tied around everyones waist, and whenever we try to pull ahead of their intented pace, we get pulled back harder and harder until we cant get more ahead but merely keep pace.
Blizzard really dont want players to stand out in anyway...

[fadedmind]

No, I don't want to do LFR, I want to do content that is well built up instead of doing the same thing 4 times and then you can't even be proud of your mythic gear because the value of it so bad.
It's like in Dark Souls, it's okay if you beat the game, but nobody gives a shit about NG+. Same in WoW hurr durr you get higher ilvl that nobody really cares about since it's just a number you can't do anything useful or unique with... I'm not going to farm azerite just to see 1-2 new mechanics per boss and higher numbers. It's a shit game design. When people killed Ragnaros, Onyxia, or did Naxx, that was something worth grinding for and being proud of, and you felt unique doing it. These bosses also carried some epicness because of it, now you kill Gul'Dan a big lore character in LFR in 1 min without taking damage. Just how stupid it is.

That dark souls reference couldn't be further from the truth. Coming from someone who has their platinum in athe whole series and hundreds of hours played in each game and a soul lvl 1 ng+7 runs.

[Elias01]

That dark souls reference couldn't be further from the truth. Coming from someone who has their platinum in athe whole series and hundreds of hours played in each game and a soul lvl 1 ng+7 runs.

No he is absolutly right. Ontop of that we had no such problems as itemlvl inflation what had to be off set by scaling and community was far less segmented than it is now. Difficulty levels do not belongs into mmo game.

[Eggroll]

You realize that the game has been like that since Wrath right? You could level, gear up in an evening, and start doing content. What raid content isn't giving you better rewards than world quests? The easier levels of old content? That's about it. Sounds more like you're burnt out than anything else.

Nope, the pacing of everything in this game has just become shit in my opinion.

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why not just watch a video on youtube and pretend you did the things?

Stop shifting the goalpost. If you want to do old content, nothing is stopping you.

Why does the devs even devaluate the majority of content to tell us what "meaningful" is and what isn't. ....

[Drusin]

Pretty insightful and original points, thank you for bringing these to our attention.

I feel like, you forgot to /s and no one noticed.