Conclave of the Chosen impossible in lower group sizes.

[goldenguyz]

Edit: Yeah, I got the name of the boss wrong. Please forgive me

Hey guys,

My fairly average (skillwise) guild just downed this boss after pugging an extra 10 people. It seems like in 10 man, you need 3 healers for the bird to rotate cooldowns, which means you only have 5 dps for the raptors which, most of the time, you don't have dps for. Only half your raid are DPS. We tried 15 man, but we only did marginally better (+4 dps and +1 healer).

20 man was far and beyond easier. Not only did we have 2 extra healers for raid cooldowns to throw away when we needed them (don't even get me started on healing Kimbul's DoT), but we also had 15% extra dps for raptors. After about 20 total wipes, we got it down after 3-4 with 20 people (if that).

I understand Blizzard doesn't want to balance like they did at the start of Legion or in WoD where you'd take 14 people to make it easier but you have to at least make smaller groups possible or give slightly better loot. That said, I'd prefer to avoid pugging in general as you can get real slackers or uncooperative people who will just end up wasting your time.

My suggestion would be to increase the time between damage on the bird's aoe for every 1 person below 20 man, like on Vectis. Then, so you aren't screwing with the flow, increase the other loa abilitie's spawn time by that many seconds.

My other suggestion would be to either decrease the speed or damage of the raptors of the raptors by 1.5% for every person under 20 man to make up for the 15% dps loss in 10 man.

The fact that raptors would spawn during the bird aoe meant our healers had to have everyone to full at the end of it, and then we also had a lesser ratio of DPS to deal with it. The above suggestions should make 10 manning this possible for the average 10 man guild, whilst still keeping 20 man far easier for those who want that.

Here's our logs if it helps: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BzkRAyvTJZx1CQ3K.

Other than that, I really like this fight. In a 20 man team it feels well designed and just enough is happening that it never feels like there's nothing to do. Even when you're just sitting on the boss, you know raptors are coming soon, you know there's a frog hopping about, you have to coordinate tank swaps soon, you know you need a raid CD soon etc. etc. On top of that, nothing is too complex. So as soon as you've figured one thing out you can do it like clockwork the next time, rarely having that same issue again and figure out the next thing that needs to be figured.

Cheers!

[Shelly]

Welcome to BFA, more people almost always equals faster results.

The cynic in me is saying it's their way of encouraging large groupings.

The more hopeful part of myself just calls it the silliness of tuning.

[pewpmeiser]

We did it with 10, but wasnt without a fair amount of wipes and refining.

[Magicpot]

All of battle is tuned badly for small group sizes.

From not having 3 healers for opulence (thus losing a permanent 25% dps buff on the entire raid, which boss health is NOT reduced to compensate for), to this, to rastakhan with only 1 healer downstairs and still 1 person mc'd every so often, to blockade with solo healing the boats.

On topic with Conclave: We rolled over it hard with 25 people by throwing healing cds at every dead boss and every bird phase, and by chain cc-killing the now laughable raptors.

[horbindr]

im pretty sure nowadays everything is designed with 15-20, maybe 25 people in mind. and especially a 10 man group suffers a lot for it.

i would like to be able to say that this is a nod to the old days to give people who want 10 man raiding something, but lets be honest they just don't balance it for these group sizes at all.

[agentsi]

We did this boss with 12 on heroic, carrying a few very under geared alts. It wasn't an issue at all. Just have to do mechanics, from start to finish. And make sure DPS focus raptors.. They are #1. Other than that, it wasn't hard at all.

[Alvito]

I have done it in smaller groups. Having cds from dps helps a lot though. Darkness can be a huge life saver.

[Freshouttajail]

Edit: Yeah, I got the name of the boss wrong. Please forgive me

Hey guys,

My fairly average (skillwise) guild just downed this boss after pugging an extra 10 people. It seems like in 10 man, you need 3 healers for the bird to rotate cooldowns, which means you only have 5 dps for the raptors which, most of the time, you don't have dps for. Only half your raid are DPS. We tried 15 man, but we only did marginally better (+4 dps and +1 healer).

20 man was far and beyond easier. Not only did we have 2 extra healers for raid cooldowns to throw away when we needed them (don't even get me started on healing Kimbul's DoT), but we also had 15% extra dps for raptors. After about 20 total wipes, we got it down after 3-4 with 20 people (if that).

I understand Blizzard doesn't want to balance like they did at the start of Legion or in WoD where you'd take 14 people to make it easier but you have to at least make smaller groups possible or give slightly better loot. That said, I'd prefer to avoid pugging in general as you can get real slackers or uncooperative people who will just end up wasting your time.

My suggestion would be to increase the time between damage on the bird's aoe for every 1 person below 20 man, like on Vectis. Then, so you aren't screwing with the flow, increase the other loa abilitie's spawn time by that many seconds.

My other suggestion would be to either decrease the speed or damage of the raptors of the raptors by 1.5% for every person under 20 man to make up for the 15% dps loss in 10 man.

The fact that raptors would spawn during the bird aoe meant our healers had to have everyone to full at the end of it, and then we also had a lesser ratio of DPS to deal with it. The above suggestions should make 10 manning this possible for the average 10 man guild, whilst still keeping 20 man far easier for those who want that.

Here's our logs if it helps: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BzkRAyvTJZx1CQ3K.

Other than that, I really like this fight. In a 20 man team it feels well designed and just enough is happening that it never feels like there's nothing to do. Even when you're just sitting on the boss, you know raptors are coming soon, you know there's a frog hopping about, you have to coordinate tank swaps soon, you know you need a raid CD soon etc. etc. On top of that, nothing is too complex. So as soon as you've figured one thing out you can do it like clockwork the next time, rarely having that same issue again and figure out the next thing that needs to be figured.

Cheers!

Your shaman is nerfing himself by running ascendance instead of high tide. Also once he gets enough spouting spirit (azerite trait) he can cover 2 bird wind phase by himself, using spirit link on one and tide totem on the other.

[Rixxis]

We killed Conclave with 13 people in heroic in 2 pulls in a pug. Maybe tell your DPS to read guides on their classes because they're all awful.

[AgilityTank]

it's crossrealm. get the people you need. crying about heroic/normal is silly

[Nitros14]

Wait



The Conclave of Wind?

[Tech614]

All of battle is tuned badly for small group sizes.

For the most part yes, but this statement isn't always true. Blockade is definitely much easier the smaller your group is and a few fights like Rasta, Jaina and Gronk are pretty neutral.

Conclave isn't even that bad in smaller groups, mekka and oppulence are far worse.

[Sageless]

Here's our logs if it helps: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BzkRAyvTJZx1CQ3K.

While there are issues with scaling, not sure how those logs are helping you make a point.
On most tries you had people dying due to not standing under the big bird and taking a lot of damage.
It also seems like your dps isn't saving any cooldowns for taking down the raptors.

And since you pugged people that were doing more dps (5 out of your top 7 dps were not in your first try) than your original 10 on your kill you could also conclude you just pugged better players making it easier. Similarly you pugged 2 healers that were doing comparatively very well compared to your original healers (especially taking their ilvl into consideration).

All this doesn't mean there are no issues with low group sizes, but with proper play these can be killed. Expecting it to be the same difficulty in a 10 man group with different ratios of tank/dps/heal is rather naive. Not even taking into account your 10 man group missed both debuffs and arcane intellect.

Going with 10 people means more preparation to get a good composition, while with a larger group you are often guaranteed to have everything covered.

[TwentyTwelve]

Had one quick look at your log and see dps doing 10k or less dps?

What's your point exactly, my tank does more than 10k dps.

Of course you're gonna wipe if your dps is abysmal, just because you're a casual guild doesn't mean the fights gifted to you for free, you should be doing more dps even as casual raiders if you want to clear content.

Checking wipe 7, 5 of your players used battle potions, again casual is fine and all but doing super low dps for current content and not even willing to use the consumables to boost it, you don't deserve to kill the boss.

Edit: But yes scaling is busted, there is a thread on it already.

[Caprix]

Agree with the last messages, honestly the logs seem to yell there is some serious L2P reasons to the early fails.
My guild is absolutely not a top skilled one, especially on this fight, last time we did this encounter it was 4 healers for 24 peoples, compared to 5 healers for 20 people you used. We had 5 more ilvl on average, but you get the point. If dps/heal is low and/or mechanics are not done properly, then you need to be carried by using more healers, and then YES bringing one more healer is always easier to do with a big raid size. Just like you can still get the kill with someone dying or whatever. Less people = everyone has to carry its own weight.

[Magicpot]

For the most part yes, but this statement isn't always true. Blockade is definitely much easier the smaller your group is and a few fights like Rasta, Jaina and Gronk are pretty neutral.

Conclave isn't even that bad in smaller groups, mekka and oppulence are far worse.

We found both blockade and rasta to be far harder with smaller sizes. We just rolled over both of them as 25 players but reclearing with 10 it was pretty cancerous. Doable yes but cancerous nonetheless.

[Monstermash]

We wiped on this like 15 or so times on Heroic. People kept goofing to stupid and when combined with boss abilities it was just way more difficult than it had to be.

Then we changed up the order of the bosses and we 1-shot him with the new order.

[Tech614]

We found both blockade and rasta to be far harder with smaller sizes. We just rolled over both of them as 25 players but reclearing with 10 it was pretty cancerous. Doable yes but cancerous nonetheless.

If you found either Rasta or Blockade harder with smaller group sizes it's because the majority of the players you had when you shrunk the size didn't do the mechanics properly.

Blockade is especially a joke in smaller group sizes, where you don't even need a good strat or positioning at all.

[Lollis]

Gonk > Paku > Kimbul > Akunda

Paku's haste buff hits everything, so leaving him to third means that the raptors are getting it far more often, and grouping that with akunda silences or kimbul jumps gets quite nasty.

Gonk first for the hex, and then Paku unless you can guarantee those adds die fast or you can get them dispelled. Time heroism for Kimbul just after the Bird has finished, you dont really want two Kimbul & Akunda bird phases. If all went well Kimbul should be around 40% or so already by the time heroism is ready to be used.

[Faesroll]

your dps are horrible