Canada's out-of-pocket health care costs

[Heladys]

I don't hate you. You just disappoint me. I am glad you don't spend any time thinking about me; That would be creepy. But you were a moderator and posted like 30 posts per day in the main part of this forum that i visited; of course i will know who you are.

Endus may have been a terrible moderator, but I have seen literally zero evidence to support that he's a terrible human being or even a bad "regular poster". I think this one's on you, man. Maybe you need to be setting up the ignores.

[XangXu]

It's reality, not a Left or Right issue.

Cronyism is when government gets involved and tries to play favorities, capitalism doesn't involve that and ceases to be capitalism when the government gets involved.

Capitalism denies certain people the right to care simply because they can’t afford it.

The doctor COULD press the button on the machine that would instantly cure you, but pressing that button is very expansive, so you are out of luck. Maybe you should not be poor.

This is American Healthcare.

[durenas]

Most employers cover that at costs less than $10/month using group insurance... Get educated.

We're not talking about employer health insurance. We're talking about the free health care. I know perfectly well that employers offer health care plans.

[Draco-Onis]

Nobody ever mentions this (probably because they don't care enough to look into underlying causes) however the reason why US healthcare is so expensive is due to a broken implementation of medicare, medicate, VA insurance and low income services such as the ones provided by astrazeneca.

The TL;DR is that government pays to cover the cost of medication and most services regardless of price, without any federal caps on the prices of medication and services. So amoral companies that provide these services are incentivised to raise prices as high as possible so that they can make as much money as possible.

Currently, with the system as is, simply throwing more money at the system or giving everybody free healthcare would lead to a cascading effect that will bleed coffers dry.

The solution is not a simple one and requires a complete restructuring of America's healthcare system and an introduction of caps that does not impede or disincentive research into new drugs (some of which is in the billions of dollars, fully taxable and cannot be written off unless the drug fails).

There needs to be some kind of system where The US government funds research directly. But since most people have no understanding of the underlying issue, if the government were to announce tomorrow that they are going to be devoting $300 billion per year to pharmaceutical companies to help with the research and development of new drugs there would be riots on the streets.

But the government gets a lower price on medication and services, they cannot negotiate price but they are allowed to look over the approval of certain medication. I am not also not sure what you are talking about since Universities push most of R & D whereas big pharma brags about how little they spend on that and their greater focus on marketing. There's just so much wrong in your post that we could be here forever but I think that is purposeful.

[Draco-Onis]

A lower price on a $300 dollar medication that, in reality, should be $30 is still significantly more expensive than a lower price on a $30.00 medication. You are so deeply rooted in bias that you are sitting here, making the implicit argument that the prices governments receive is already as low as it can be, while still supporting the argument that the price for medication and services are too expensive. Did you actually think that argument through?

Are you implying that there is not a problem with pharmaceutical companies hiking their prices to rake in as much money from insurance agencies and the US government? Are you so against having things exposed a gray, as opposed to black and white that you will contradict your own beliefs?

This place is amazing.

Aside from putting words in my mouth thank you for saying you were wrong about the lower prices. There is a problem with pricing when it comes to medication but that is a regulatory problem since big pharma can charge whatever they want without oversight and government programs aren't allowed to play hardball and negotiate which are problems.

You are thinking about the 20% of breakthroughs which is found at Universities and ignoring the about 80% that is found by pharma. You are ignoring the fact that almost all of the big breakthroughs that 20% of universities are eventually implemented by big pharma. Most of the breakthroughs found by Universities are with types of treatments such as breakthrough surgeries. Even the most high end university does not have to budget to invest billions of dollars into finding 1 drug that treats 1 disease.

They do, however, have amazing departments that are typically able to find functional analogs to certain drugs that force prices down.

I don't know what the fuck is going on here but it really baffles me to see so much blatant, unabashed ignorance here on the most basic topics. You don't need to have a degree in biomedical engineering to know that the companies who own the patents on drugs are the companies who placed most of the research and development into that drug, but here you are telling me that Aspirin, ibuprofen, acetaminophen, synthesized insulin, Truvada, epinephrine, viagra, bismuth subsalicylate, warfarin, adderall, risperdal and the other 100 most used drugs that make up approximately 80% of the most expensive drugs with the highest market penetration (and thus makes up the bulk of medication costs in the USA) were researched and developed by Universities.

Dude we live in the (post) information age where you can hop onto google and fact check yourself, but you choose not to? What?

But your numbers are wrong because the "innovations" in big pharma are mostly reusing of old formulas for other purposes or adding slight modifications to existing patents. There are VC and foreign companies that do cutting edge research then get acquired which is the extend of the innovation in the private sector.

Also it's kind of sad that the list of your drugs are some from the 1890s and one that was discovered as a rodent killer, your rants are as amusing as they are ignorant as you keep pulling numbers out of your derriere.

[Super Kami Dende]

Endus may have been a terrible moderator, but I have seen literally zero evidence to support that he's a terrible human being or even a bad "regular poster". I think this one's on you, man. Maybe you need to be setting up the ignores.

He's not a Terrible Human being, but he isn't exactly an amazing one. He's the same guy that said disliking a Religion was as bad as Racism. He is illogical in many things. Doesn't make him a bad person, but it doesn't really give him any credibility either.

[Trifle]

People go to the ER for basic headaches, colds, stuffy noses, UTIs, yeast infections, refills for blood pressure, etc all the time.

Pretty sure that if you tried that here they'd tell you to piss off to the after hours clinic, and that the ER is for emergencies.

[Kasierith]

Pretty sure that if you tried that here they'd tell you to piss off to the after hours clinic, and that the ER is for emergencies.

Two issues with that. First, many have contracts for government funding that would require them to admit patients, funding required if they want to stay in business. Hospital finance is extremely complicated, and most ERs instead of trying to figure out which patients they can legally refuse without compromising funding simply have an across the board policy to admit and assess patients.

Second, if a hospital were to refuse treatment they become responsible for any further damage they could have fixed. Unlike pharmacies or doctors offices, they have a community responsibility to provide care. If that headache turns out to be a stroke, or diarrhea turns out to be colon cancer, guess whose on the chopping block.

The US medical system is massively influenced both by finances and by liability.

[PosPosPos]

Two issues with that. First, many have contracts for government funding that would require them to admit patients, funding required if they want to stay in business. Hospital finance is extremely complicated, and most ERs instead of trying to figure out which patients they can legally refuse without compromising funding simply have an across the board policy to admit and assess patients.

Second, if a hospital were to refuse treatment they become responsible for any further damage they could have fixed. Unlike pharmacies or doctors offices, they have a community responsibility to provide care. If that headache turns out to be a stroke, or diarrhea turns out to be colon cancer, guess whose on the chopping block.

The US medical system is massively influenced both by finances and by liability.

Defensive medicine as a concept originated there for a reason....

[Aggrophobic]

None of their health care is free. It is funded by taxing the indivuduals that work.

It's in part free for the end user. Thats what free means. If we only used your logic then the word "free" would have no meaning.

[Kasierith]

Defensive medicine as a concept originated there for a reason....

If you're implying it's because the US has horrible standards of care, it's not. It has to do with the US having a far more expansive system of civil law than it's Western counterparts going back even hundreds of years.

[Trifle]

Two issues with that. First, many have contracts for government funding that would require them to admit patients, funding required if they want to stay in business. Hospital finance is extremely complicated, and most ERs instead of trying to figure out which patients they can legally refuse without compromising funding simply have an across the board policy to admit and assess patients.

Second, if a hospital were to refuse treatment they become responsible for any further damage they could have fixed. Unlike pharmacies or doctors offices, they have a community responsibility to provide care. If that headache turns out to be a stroke, or diarrhea turns out to be colon cancer, guess whose on the chopping block.

The US medical system is massively influenced both by finances and by liability.

Most of the hospitals here are public, so the funding thing is similar. But ERs aren't really set up to handle routine things like colds and we have plenty of after hours clinics, so they're not denying you so much as telling you where to go to get more appropriate care.

[PosPosPos]

If you're implying it's because the US has horrible standards of care, it's not.

I believe you are mistaken, I am just saying medical professionals in the US are so afraid of getting embroiled in legal troubles(and rightfully so) due to patients being unreasonable that they rather cover all bases, necessary or not.

It has to do with the US having a far more expansive system of civil law than it's Western counterparts going back even hundreds of years.

Yes, defensive medicine is a consequence of litigious culture, and it basically punishes medical professionals for practicing evidence-based medicine.

[Monster Hunter]

They are not. In most European countries they are but not in Canada. I am Swedish and live in Canada so I have experience of both and the system here is weird. In Sweden they penalize you for going to the doctor with a small fee that everyone pays but once your total medical costs have exceeded an amount (like a thousand dollars or something) everything is free. In Canada you pay nothing for bothering a doctor with a basic cold but if medicines are needed you pay for those yourself, all of it. Having health insurance is actually pretty important in Canada for meds and dental. The Swedish system is far better where everything costs the same, cancer, 50 bucks. Pissing a doctor off with some garbage you read on the internet, 50 bucks...or what ever it costs now. The fee is small enough that everyone can afford it but big enough that you at least think for 30 sec before visiting a doctor.

Quebec has a different system where medications are covered to some extent.

Canadas system follows the UK NHS model. But not as far it seems. The price of even the non covered treatments is so low there's no need for any health insurance, even for dental work, and if your so poor you can't even afford that, then you qualify for it tk be totally free.

Now luxury stuff is usually off your own back. So if you smash your front teeth out like my friend did, the surgery to try and save them and dentures if they can't are free, but implants are counted as a luxury so he would have to cover the cost him self.

- - - Updated - - -

None of their health care is free. It is funded by taxing the indivuduals that work.

It's called national insurance. It scales up the more you earn but it's a really trivial % of pay,vovers you for nearly everything. And 100% of anything life threatening.

It's a good and fair system. It treats the sick and infirm, keeps people in work, let's them live and work longer.

There's an economical benefit to national health care our right wing clearly sees but the US still wants to fight political battles from a 100 years ago *shrug*

[XDurionX]

But your numbers are wrong because the "innovations" in big pharma are mostly reusing of old formulas for other purposes or adding slight modifications to existing patents. There are VC and foreign companies that do cutting edge research then get acquired which is the extend of the innovation in the private sector.

Also it's kind of sad that the list of your drugs are some from the 1890s and one that was discovered as a rodent killer, your rants are as amusing as they are ignorant as you keep pulling numbers out of your derriere.

This is a very important point. The # of patents is a VERY poor indicator of quality for medical research. Things that are so very immediate critical for people's wellbeing should never be left to "the market", this is shown time and time again. Whether it be roads, water, education or in this case, health. Companies will ALWAYS use their power to extort people to earn that additional dollar, and it's the state's duty to protect its people from this.

[Monster Hunter]

I mean here insurance and pensions combined are over 30% of labour costs.

Honestly the main effect is the price controls. The issue I see with the US is how expensive everything healthcare related is. Even medicine that is not covered by healthcare here is cheap compared to what they have to pay.

That's mostly because our governments negotiate price with the pharma company's, and as we have complete control of our market's they sell it at what we tell them to or they don't sell it at all.

There's more complexity to it than that ofc, but that's essentially it. And we only tend to go for the latest and greatest drugs when there proven to have a marked increase in performance over what we all ready have, lesser side effects and are safe.

So basicly the USA pays more and beta tests our drugs for us.

[Cruor]

What do morons like Bernie not get? SOMEONE has to pay the taxes for that (me) some of us already have a good health care plan and earn a good wage (me) and some of us never get sick (me) so this would be a net loss for me. If you cant pay for yourself, and friends, family and charity cant help, just die, that is how it should be. Now that said assisted suicide should be very cheap and legal, someone in pain shouldn't suffer.

[Phlegethon]

Interesting read on Canada's health care.

I thought Canada had 100% free everything. It's not true. Always it's the same thing with these "free health care systems", if they talk to Americans they say how great it is. Meanwhile at home, they complain about it.

Obviously they complain about it. It can always be better.
Nothing is as bad the murrican version of not having any though... About on par with a third world country that doesn't have hospitals...

[XDurionX]

If you cant pay for yourself, and friends, family and charity cant help, just die, that is how it should be. Now that said assisted suicide should be very cheap and legal, someone in pain shouldn't suffer.

Let's hope none of your loved ones ever gets sick and gets treated this way by you. Disgusting.

[Cruor]

Let's hope none of your loved ones ever gets sick and gets treated this way by you. Disgusting.

I knew you would come and post exactly this. My loved ones can afford their own care.