Warbringers Jaina: trying to rewrite events of the past

[huth]

Katherine only aknowledges that Jaina couldn't save him from himself, as in she doesn't think he was wrong when it comes to wanting to fight the orcs or thinking that they're monsters, but in a way that she understands that Daelin took more of a bite than he could chew at the time and that his death is his own merit, not Jaina's.

He could've perhaps chewed through it if Jaina hadn't literally lead the Horde into her father's bastion, but that's something that isn't touched upon.

I didn't say he did it for the wrong reasons.

And maybe he could, but that would have required Jaina to imperil her own charges for her father's reckless aggression.

[Magnagarde]

I didn't say he did it for the wrong reasons.

And maybe he could, but that would have required Jaina to imperil her own charges for her father's reckless aggression.

Well, what I meant to point out overall is that nobody from Kul Tiras - Katherine included - blames Daelin for what he did nor do they think that he was wrong to hate the orcs. She now simply knows the truth that he rushed into his own death. I've seen numerous replied implying this, so I voiced that when replying to you, thinking you're making an identical point.

[Jastall]

You're confusing two things; her thinking that he was wrong to hate orcs and her thinking that his death is his own fault.

She now definitely knows that he died because of his own push against the orcs, but she doesn't think that he was wrong to hate the orcs nor do any of the Kul Tirans think that Daelin was wrong to attack/hate the orcs with a passion. She only knows and understands that he charged into his own death, while the rest of Kul Tiras almost completely stands firm when it comes to echoing Daelin's opinion about the Horde.

Well that's what I was trying to get at, the narrative condemns his actions even if it's mostly because he bit off more than he could chew. So it's unlikely as hell that he would be portrayed as a hero in whatever new storyline Blizzard have cooked up for Reforged; in fact, the current team's propensity for black and white narratives might lead them to make him more villainous, not less.

[Mirn]

The real frustration here is how tired it is to do this again. People are done dealing with 'Are the Horde bad? Are they good? What should we do about them?' and want something different.

While this event isn't wrong, or revisionist or even a reach in my opinion, what it does wrong is it takes us right back to an old story that's still fresh in a lot of minds.

MoP happened already, this just made it possible for us to do it again, from the same perspectives, for very similar reasons just with different characters. A lot of people hated this, and what it resulted in, not because it's bad (Which it's not) or because it's poor writing (at the core, it isn't) but because it's BORING and supports a BORING story that a lot of people didn't want to re-tread.

That and it played a part in BfA draining the last vestiges of 'faction pride' Horde players got to have just so that we could play the token villain side and fight ourselves more than anything, leaving Alliance players in an audience seat to the story and with a cast of reactionary 'Golden Boy's' with the dullest of shines.

It did nothing for a lot of people, which is sad because clearly a lot of effort and passion went into making it, and the direction it took wasted all of that.

[Grazrug]

Well that's what I was trying to get at, the narrative condemns his actions even if it's mostly because he bit off more than he could chew. So it's unlikely as hell that he would be portrayed as a hero in whatever new storyline Blizzard have cooked up for Reforged; in fact, the current team's propensity for black and white narratives might lead them to make him more villainous, not less.

With Christie Golden in charge they will make Thrall and Rexxar commenting on how they would love to throw Kul Tiran babies over a cliff while facing Daelin in cowardice backstab combat.

[Jastall]

With Christie Golden in charge they will make Thrall and Rexxar commenting on how they would love to throw Kul Tiran babies over a cliff while facing Daelin in cowardice backstab combat.

Dude, this is getting old. Can you stop the endless self-pitying victim narrative for even a second? Even as a Horde player your posts are barely readable because of it.

And Rexxar is, in the current storyline, a committed honorbro gearing up for some sweet, sweet rebellion action. There's nothing that indicates they will turn him or Green Jesus into Snidely Whiplash.

[VladlTutushkin]

What exactly is morally grey about attempting to try genocide three races for being on the wrong team?

Night elfs (both of Ashenvale and Darkshore and Teldrassil), humans of Lordaeron and Hillsbrad, Gilneans, people of Kul’Tiras (especially Brennadam), people of Theramore, helluva lot of pandas in Vale of Eternal Blossom and many other poor bastards would pretty much call him a Hero in hindsight, but they all dead. Because of the Horde.
Plus your statement especially rich if we take into consideration Sylvanas plans of “ending Alliance threat for good” under even flimsier premise then Daelin had.

[Grazrug]

Night elfs (both of Ashenvale and Darkshore and Teldrassil), humans if Lordaeron and Hillsbrad, Gilneans, people of Kul’Tiras (especially Brennadam), people of Theramore, helluva lot of pandas in Vale of Eternal Blossom and many other poor bastards would pretty much call him a Hero in hindsight, but they all dead. Because of the Horde.
Plus your statement especially rich if we take into consideration Sylvanas plans of “ending Alliance threat for good” under even flimsier premise then Daelin had.

None of these events happened yet during the situation of Warcraft 3. And so far, kneeling Anduin infront of Anduin would just end the war too without any other genocide too. If she holds true for what she said after the funreal for Rastakhan.

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Dude, this is getting old. Can you stop the endless self-pitying victim narrative for even a second? Even as a Horde player your posts are barely readable because of it.

And Rexxar is, in the current storyline, a committed honorbro gearing up for some sweet, sweet rebellion action. There's nothing that indicates they will turn him or Green Jesus into Snidely Whiplash.

I will not. Not until the entire intro of this expansion, including Lordaeron and Teldrassil get retconed and nuanced as it should have been from the start.

[VladlTutushkin]

None of these events happened yet during the situation of Warcraft 3. And so far, kneeling Anduin infront of Anduin would just end the war too without any other genocide too. If she holds true for what she said after the funreal for Rastakhan.

In the book she planned no less then turning entire Stormwind into her personal undead army and she already all but exterminated night elfs who due to their longevity procreate slowly and cant cover the losses they took in the war. They will be around till the end if WoW since single elven generation can last for a looong time but they are effectively statistically dead race without future.

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None of these events happened yet during the situation of Warcraft 3. And so far, kneeling Anduin infront of Anduin would just end the war too without any other genocide too. If she holds true for what she said after the funreal for Rastakhan.

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I will not. Not until the entire intro of this expansion, including Lordaeron and Teldrassil get retconed and nuanced as it should have been from the start.

There is very little “nuance” to genocide, like... you can spin it, you cant win it.

[Magnagarde]

Well that's what I was trying to get at, the narrative condemns his actions even if it's mostly because he bit off more than he could chew. So it's unlikely as hell that he would be portrayed as a hero in whatever new storyline Blizzard have cooked up for Reforged; in fact, the current team's propensity for black and white narratives might lead them to make him more villainous, not less.

The narrative doesn't really condemn it, at least not from the Alliance point of view, which is the only side that experiences this narrative to begin with. It's more of an eye-opener to Katherine that she wrongfully accused her daughter (now, I personally don't think she was entirely wrong to accuse her because she literally assisted the Horde, but whatever). All of those from and loyal to Kul Tiras, who are now also part of the Alliance, haven't had their perception of Daelin changed. He's still considered a heroic Kul Tiran leader, a Second War hero and there's nothing that indicates that the nation's perception changed.

The reason why I equate the aforementioned narrative to the Alliance/Kul Tiran point of view in BfA is because the Alliance is the only one who sees this through questing; the Horde obviously have a completely different view of Daelin and BfA doesn't add more than we already knew from W3. This is why this narrative development when it comes to Daelin is completely meaningless for the Horde and its point of view.

The only one who knows any of this is Katherine and that's why she forgives Jaina, whereas the rest of Kul Tiras seemingly forgives her because Katherine decides to and because Jaina saved them from Ashvane and later on during a Horde attack on one of the gates. We don't really get anything that says why her nation forgives her, as in clear-cut text within the game, but these are our best guesses to go around with.

[Grazrug]

In the book she planned no less then turning entire Stormwind into her personal undead army and she already all but exterminated night elfs who due to their longevity procreate slowly and cant cover the losses they took in the war. They will be around till the end if WoW since single elven generation can last for a looong time but they are effectively statistically dead race without future.

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There is very little “nuance” to genocide, like... you can spin it, you cant win it.

Retcon. Spell it with me. R.E.T.C.O.N. Everything is possible with resetting the clock.

[VladlTutushkin]

Retcon. Spell it with me. R.E.T.C.O.N. Everything is possible with resetting the clock.

And what kind of retcon can make War of Thorns “palatable” for your “refined” tastes? Horde is spoiled, you need not a retcon, you need a strict diet of well deserved “kicks” in the dome to make your ego deflate slightly. God knows most of Alliance players grew to hate their faction, time for you to learn bitter taste of having no joy in game too.

[Grazrug]

And what kind of retcon can make War of Thorns “palatable” for your “refined” tastes? Horde is spoiled, you need not a retcon, you need a strict diet of well deserved “kicks” in the dome to make your ego deflate slightly. God knows most of Alliance players grew to hate their faction, time for you to learn bitter taste of having no joy in game too.

And the facade falls. Thank you very much. Perhaps we should not only retcon this expansion but MoP too while we are at it and turning the tables around. Some well deserved demonizing and villain batting your faction instead, would work wonders on YOUR ego.

[Magnagarde]

And the facade falls. Thank you very much. Perhaps we should not only retcon this expansion but MoP too while we are at it and turning the tables around. Some well deserved demonizing and villain batting your faction instead, would work wonders on YOUR ego.

In all honesty, everything starting with the ending of Cataclysm up to this day is deserving of a retcon. I liked Legion's various stories and everything related to the Burning Legion, but besides that things really aren't looking good.

[VladlTutushkin]

And the facade falls. Thank you very much. Perhaps we should not only retcon this expansion but MoP too while we are at it and turning the tables around. Some well deserved demonizing and villain batting your faction instead, would work wonders on YOUR ego.

Oh by all means. I despise Alliance. I hate Anduin Light-Damn Wrynn. You think we ENJOYED MoP? A “slap on a wrist” SoO? And now again that whimp crawls to Saurfang (whom i respect btw) and begs him to help him stop “big bad banshee” because apparently Alliance is so weak and feeble that they cant stop the Horde from takin over the world without half of the Horde splintering. So be my guest - switch narratives and eat shit we ate ever since Cata. Then when your faction is nothing but a stupidly good victim and your races are slowly dragged into that archetype , THEN we will talk.

[Grazrug]

Oh by all means. I despise Alliance. I hate Anduin Light-Damn Wrynn. You think we ENJOYED MoP? A “slap on a wrist” SoO? And now again that whimp crawls to Saurfang (whom i respect btw) and begs him to help him stop “big bad banshee” because apparently Alliance is so weak and feeble that they cant stop the Horde from takin over the world without half of the Horde splintering. So be my guest - switch narratives and eat shit we ate ever since Cata. Then when your faction is nothing but a stupidly good victim and your races are slowly dragged into that archetype , THEN we will talk.

You winning single battles is more important for you than winning the war and keeping your core identity? Damm what expectations are raised around here.

[Magnagarde]

Oh by all means. I despise Alliance. I hate Anduin Light-Damn Wrynn. You think we ENJOYED MoP? A “slap on a wrist” SoO? And now again that whimp crawls to Saurfang (whom i respect btw) and begs him to help him stop “big bad banshee” because apparently Alliance is so weak and feeble that they cant stop the Horde from takin over the world without half of the Horde splintering. So be my guest - switch narratives and eat shit we ate ever since Cata. Then when your faction is nothing but a stupidly good victim and your races are slowly dragged into that archetype , THEN we will talk.

While I dislike certain parts of Anduin's arc and character (especially the one where he is a blatantly obvious self-insert of Golden's ideal imaginary prince on a white horse), at least the Alliance gets to be what it was always about; fighting for the world, defending oneself and trying to strike justice at what is easy to percieve as villainous. The Horde's theme however has erroded beyond reckognition at this point. The Horde's strongest point - the diversity - has become it's locus minoris, while what was considered the Alliance's weak point is what makes it the stronger faction at this point in the story.

The Horde signed up for a fate of permanent turmoil the moment the Forsaken were thrown into the faction and it is what I consider one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard made when it comes to setting factions up for WoW.

[VladlTutushkin]

You winning single battles is more important for you than winning the war and keeping your core identity? Damm what expectations are raised around here.

Winnig what war? After SoO Alliance gave up more land then they kept and what they “traded” with Horde was occupied by Horde since Cata while territories given up by Alliance were either contested or neutral since Vanilla. So we just gave up more zones. And what else happened? Horde walked without much of a scratch from SoO. Then WoD was a clear show of equally powerful forces again. Then Legion with Sylvanas and all the way down to current point in BfA where Alliance still loses massive amounts of troops gains “huge advantage” that we ALREADY FUCKEN KNOW will be crushed like a twig in 8.2 by Sylvanas.

[Grazrug]

Winnig what war? After SoO Alliance gave up more land then they kept and what they “traded” with Horde was occupied by Horde since Cata while territories given up by Alliance were either contested or neutral since Vanilla. So we just gave up more zones. And what else happened? Horde walked without much of a scratch from SoO. Then WoD was a clear show of equally powerful forces again. Then Legion with Sylvanas and all the way down to current point in BfA where Alliance still loses massive amounts of troops gains “huge advantage” that we ALREADY FUCKEN KNOW will be crushed like a twig in 8.2 by Sylvanas.

Name one war the Alliance ever lost since it's founding during the second war(against the Horde). I'll wait.

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While I dislike certain parts of Anduin's arc and character (especially the one where he is a blatantly obvious self-insert of Golden's ideal imaginary prince on a white horse), at least the Alliance gets to be what it was always about; fighting for the world, defending oneself and trying to strike justice at what is easy to percieve as villainous. The Horde's theme however has erroded beyond reckognition at this point. The Horde's strongest point - the diversity - has become it's locus minoris, while what was considered the Alliance's weak point is what makes it the stronger faction at this point in the story.

The Horde signed up for a fate of permanent turmoil the moment the Forsaken were thrown into the faction and it is what I consider one of the biggest mistakes Blizzard made when it comes to setting factions up for WoW.

I agree with this. This is something worth fighting for in their motivation. They are oozing with motivation, justice, faithful retribution and all that stuff that makes up for the "Hero saves the world." feeling.

[VladlTutushkin]

Name one war the Alliance ever lost since it's founding during the second war(against the Horde). I'll wait.

Oh you want to go this far. You are about as lame as your “arguments”... Name me a single war any faction decisively won or lost aince Warcraft 3? Even SoO wasnt framed as “Horde losing”. None of the factions won or lost the conflict entirely but by a “head count” Alliance loses massively. Plus after all the grievances Horde caused to Alliance we keep forgiving and forgetting like isiots for the sake of “balance” or “important moral lesson”.

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Name one war the Alliance ever lost since it's founding during the second war(against the Horde). I'll wait.

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I agree with this. This is something worth fighting for in their motivation. They are oozing with motivation, justice, faithful retribution and all that stuff that makes up for the "Hero saves the world." feeling.

Missing the spot here. Alliance is dead in the water in terms of motivation and gutted beyound repair since we KNOW we cant exact any kindof vengeance against Horde. Night elfs will most likely get even more shafted after BfA due to becoming some kind of cheap High elf replacement and forgiving Horde or just grinding their teeth impotently.