This buffs gonna change anything?

[Turtel]

7% or even 8% is most likely not going to happen from this changes alone. 6% - 6.5% is what sims (with manual override) show. But you can check yourself by adding this lines to your override tab in simc:

override.spell_data=effect.323302.ap_coefficient=0.321
override.spell_data=effect.283802.ap_coefficient=0.3447625
override.spell_data=effect.734284.coefficient=4.389

I think the people calculating a buff within the 8-10% range are just looking at their logs and simplistically applying a 25% buff to their Cobra Shot damage and a 125% buff to their Barbed Shot damage in order to get the 'new' damage values. This is wrong for two reasons:
1. It is erroneously applying a 125% buff to Feeding Frenzy damage, which was not buffed. This will cause the calculated value to be overstated.
2. It neglects the fact that Barbed Shot will now ignore armour. This will, by sheer luck, somewhat mediate the error made in #1, but not by enough, so the overall value will tend to still be overstated (assuming they had the Feeding Frenzy trait).

For example the following is the rank 3 mythic Grong parse:


In the parse:
6.97% of the damage is from Cobra Shot
3.70% of the damage is from Barbed Shot
(This person also had 1 stack of Feeding Frenzy)

The erroneous method
Simply applying a 25% buff to Cobra Shot and 125% buff to Barbed Shot results in:
6.97%*25% + 3.70%*125% = 6.37% buff

This is wrong because a 125% buff has been applied to the Feeding Frenzy damage component of Barbed Shot, and additionally it has completely ignored the fact that Barbed Shot will now ignore armour.

The correct method
We need to split the Barbed Shot damage into the baseline damage and the Feeding Frenzy damage, assuming 55% of Barbed Shot damage comes from Feeding Frenzy then:
6.97% of the damage is from Cobra Shot
45%*3.70% = 1.67% of the damage is from Barbed Shot
55%*3.70% = 2.04% of the damage is from Feeding Frenzy

To account for Barbed Shot now ignoring armour we need to remove the 0.7 armour reduction factor that has been applied to Barbed Shot (by dividing by 0.7):
6.97%*25% + 1.67%/0.7*125% = 4.72% buff
(EDIT: I made a mistake here, so the above value is wrong, thanks for andreasels for pointing that out; the correct value is below)

After factoring both the armour ignoring and the 125% buff, the new Barbed Shot damage becomes 1.67%/0.7*2.25, thus the total increase (or size of the buff) will be:
6.97%*25% + 1.67%/0.7*225% - 1.67% = 5.44% buff

Not so much. But it improves agi/AP DPS scaling slightly:

old:
( Pawn: v1: "BeastMastery": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=2.25, Ap=2.15, CritRating=2.92, HasteRating=2.51, MasteryRating=2.65, Versatility=2.63, Dps=7.07 )

new:
( Pawn: v1: "BeastMastery": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=2.33, Ap=2.21, CritRating=2.89, HasteRating=2.48, MasteryRating=2.59, Versatility=2.71, Dps=7.79 )

For me it comes out as a 6.13% buff overall.

These numbers are interesting to me since my theorising wouldn't have had any of the non-normalised stat weights going down since nothing was nerfed with this change. Yes the relative value of Mastery should drop, but the absolute DPS increase from Mastery shouldn't. I do wonder how much of an impact simple random variation in the sims contributed to the differences you saw.

My predictions for the non-normalised stat weights would have been:
No Change: Mastery
Slight buff: Agi, Versatility
Slightly bigger buff: Haste, Crit
Even bigger buff: Weapon DPS

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I don't think I've seen Barbed Shot crit, so as your crit rating goes up, theoretically Barbed Shot damage should become proportionately smaller than the rest of the abilities (which would do proportionately more damage as crit increases), but this is offset by the fact that crit increases the Wild Call chance, allowing more Barbed Shots to be cast. Similarly, even though haste does increase how often Wild Call procs happen (due to more auto attacks), this increase is exactly in proportion to an increase in how often the other abilities get cast, so it wouldn't actually increase the proportion of damage done by Feeding Frenzy compared to the damage done by the other abilities.

So perhaps neither haste nor crit should scale any better after all. I still don't see how they would scale any worse though, so I'm still going to chalk up any of those decreases to random variation .

[ydraw]

People will cry about BM doing competitive DPS. Blizzard will nerf them again because they seem to listen to vocal minority when it comes to stuff like this. Look what happened in Uldir. People bitch that an "easy" class was doing well. Then next week Blizzard nerfed it.

They didn't nerf it by very much though. It was still in the top 5 after the nerfs. What happened in Uldir is that everyone got better gear, BM just scaled much worse than every other class. By the time everyone was in 380 gear it was bottom tier.

[andreasels]

The correct method
We need to split the Barbed Shot damage into the baseline damage and the Feeding Frenzy damage, assuming 55% of Barbed Shot damage comes from Feeding Frenzy then:
6.97% of the damage is from Cobra Shot
45%*3.70% = 1.67% of the damage is from Barbed Shot
55%*3.70% = 2.04% of the damage is from Feeding Frenzy

To account for Barbed Shot now ignoring armour we need to remove the 0.7 armour reduction factor that has been applied to Barbed Shot (by dividing by 0.7):
6.97%*25% + 1.67%/0.7*125% = 4.72% buff

You forgot to factor in the armor ignore of the already existing Barbed Shot damage (before the buff) in your calculation.

You need to add 1,67% * (1/0,7-1) = 0,72%, so the total would be 5,44%

[Turtel]

You forgot to factor in the armor ignore of the already existing Barbed Shot damage (before the buff) in your calculation.

You need to add 1,67% * (1/0,7-1) = 0,72%, so the total would be 5,44%

Thanks, you're correct, I skipped too many steps and it just went right over my head. I'll edit my post so as to not mislead any more people.

I guess in my head I was trying to calculate the damage of the buffed Barbed Shot (including ignoring armour) by calculating 1.67%/0.7*2.25 then subtracting the original barbed shot damage in order to find the increase (or the size of the buff). That sould have been 1.67%/0.7*2.25-1.67% but I confused that with 1.67%/0.7*(2.25-1) = 1.67%/0.7*1.25, which is what I ended up using, but is NOT the same thing.

When I use the correct equation I get:
6.97%*25% + 1.67%/0.7*225% - 1.67% = 5.44%

Which is in agreement with your value.

[Kayagurcu]

I was expecting a buff to Kill Command either some of our azerite traits. I guess after this buffs, DoD build is the way to go with high crit and haste ratings. 2 DoD, 1 Feeding Frenzy, 1 Primal Inst., 1 Haze of Rage and ToC would be dream team on Azerites.

[Azortharion]

It'll make BM less super terrible compared to other specs in the game. It will not make it better than MM or SV or change the "meta" in a big way.

Even optimistic estimates of the buff only raise BM in the Mythic BoD standings from bottom last to 3rd last, above Fire Mage and Sub Rogue.

[bullseyed]

What Utility do you want to bring specifically that would make bringing Hunters mandatory to a raid? In your mind, do you believe that all classes should have a special utility that no one else brings in raids to ensure representation?

We already have stuff for:

Mages - Int
Warlock - Healthstone, Portal
Rogues - Survivability + Toolkit (shroud obviously more useful for M+ currently)
Warriors - Battleshout
Priests - Fort, Grip (friendly) and Mass Dispel
DKs - Grip (hostile)
Monks - teleport outside boss area to reset
Shamans - tremor is probably the most unique totem
Druids - AoE root, unlimited shifting to cancel snares, roar speed boost (stolen from hunters no less)
DH - magic damage debuff


To name a few. Some of those are obviously stronger or weaker than others. Some are obviously fight dependent. I think that at a minimum, every pure DPS class should have a "raid mandatory" utility. Ideally this would mean giving Battleshout to hunters instead of warriors, but it is an iconic warrior ability... so...

I'd go with giving hunters a crit buff. Similar to how trueshot aura worked in the past, with a little bit of the TBC feral druid thing going on. It would have to be something that could apply to all hunter specs... I'd go with calling it "Aspect of the Pack" to use an old iconic hunter name. "Acting as a pack, your party/raid/group gains attacks of opportunity, raising critical strike chance by 5% against all enemies."


But the idea of having to justify why each class should be unique is kind of silly. Is there any reason why hunters shouldn't have a unique buff? The answer is no.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet you often see a few hunters in top raids. The "unique utility" that BM provides is that BM can do boss mechanics very easily as they sacrifice close to 0 dps whilst moving.
I'd say that's enough reason to bring a hunter to a raid on top of the utility that we share with some other classes (e.g. immunity, decent selfhealing, CC, etc)

Bringing BM to middle of the pack dps is a, in my eyes, decent position as we're outside of the nerfbat range (that we were in during early uldir) and yet should be viable enough to bring a few hunters to a raid.

Method's BM hunter literally says you're wrong. But nice try?

[Nythiz]

Method's BM hunter literally says you're wrong. But nice try?

So I'm wrong, but they have a BM hunter doing all the mechanics during their Jaina progression?
I think you're misinterpreting him or you just dont know wtf you're talking about.

Nearly all top guilds had hunter with them (a lot even had 2) and several had BM hunters. Even though BM (and at the time MM too) wasn't really all that favorable.

Maybe try countering with some actual arguments next time instead of just saying: "nice try"; now your statement is just trash / flamebait.

[Azortharion]

Method doesn't have a BM Hunter.

[Eapoe]

So I'm wrong, but they have a BM hunter doing all the mechanics during their Jaina progression?
I think you're misinterpreting him or you just dont know wtf you're talking about.

Nearly all top guilds had hunter with them (a lot even had 2) and several had BM hunters. Even though BM (and at the time MM too) wasn't really all that favorable.

Maybe try countering with some actual arguments next time instead of just saying: "nice try"; now your statement is just trash / flamebait.

All the guilds you’re talking about were primarily MM. The BM Hunter on the Jaina kill outright said they only played BM because they didn’t have the right Azerite pieces to go MM.
The world 1st kill showed that you can have a BM Hunter on progression kills, but that doesn’t change that until these buffs go thru it’s bottom spec. Even after buffs it’s probably not going to climb much.

[Mavick]

Method's BM hunter literally says you're wrong. But nice try?

You mean Gingi? Yeah, he's playing MM for raid now.

[bullseyed]

So I'm wrong, but they have a BM hunter doing all the mechanics during their Jaina progression?
I think you're misinterpreting him or you just dont know wtf you're talking about.

Or more likely the best content you'll see if LFR if you're that far out of the loop on this stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

Method doesn't have a BM Hunter.

Not anymore, because BM is currently the worst spec in the game.

[Lodvampire]

We already have stuff for:

Mages - Int
Warlock - Healthstone, Portal
Rogues - Survivability + Toolkit (shroud obviously more useful for M+ currently)
Warriors - Battleshout
Priests - Fort, Grip (friendly) and Mass Dispel
DKs - Grip (hostile)
Monks - teleport outside boss area to reset
Shamans - tremor is probably the most unique totem
Druids - AoE root, unlimited shifting to cancel snares, roar speed boost (stolen from hunters no less)
DH - magic damage debuff


To name a few. Some of those are obviously stronger or weaker than others. Some are obviously fight dependent. I think that at a minimum, every pure DPS class should have a "raid mandatory" utility. Ideally this would mean giving Battleshout to hunters instead of warriors, but it is an iconic warrior ability... so...

I'd go with giving hunters a crit buff. Similar to how trueshot aura worked in the past, with a little bit of the TBC feral druid thing going on. It would have to be something that could apply to all hunter specs... I'd go with calling it "Aspect of the Pack" to use an old iconic hunter name. "Acting as a pack, your party/raid/group gains attacks of opportunity, raising critical strike chance by 5% against all enemies."


But the idea of having to justify why each class should be unique is kind of silly. Is there any reason why hunters shouldn't have a unique buff? The answer is no.

- - - Updated - - -



Method's BM hunter literally says you're wrong. But nice try?

Some of this unique utillitys you can replace with some inscription stuff, like int or str, but DH with magic debuff and I believe monks(correct me if I'm wrong) with physical debuff, makes then mandatory for high end game.
With that in mind, blizz could develop a fight where, there is adds that can only be revealed by hunters flare, or only get affected by hunter's trap, as they already said they are ok with fights that require a specific class/spec (Furnace in BRF for example)

[Keren]

there was a time when different hunter pets could bring buffs other classes would bring. Thus the more general buffs could be filled in by hunters. I really really liked that aspect, because it actually made choice of hunter pets I bring important. i'd love the comeback of netherray = magic damage taken, raptor = phys or war cry etc etc

[andreasels]

They should just remove those mandatory class buffs again. It's annoying that you HAVE to bring some classes to a raid or miss out on like 7% raid dps or so.

[Marrilaife]

They should just remove those mandatory class buffs again. It's annoying that you HAVE to bring some classes to a raid or miss out on like 7% raid dps or so.

Because apparently dps demon hunters, healer priests, mages, brewmaster monks and such weren't popular enough they need a "guaranteed raid spot". Of course classes like shamans, paladins, death knights, hunters don't. Would also add druids but tbh boomkin and resto are doing quite fine.

Especially annoyed with dh / monk buffs that can't be substituted with consumable. Havoc is already fotm as it is, didn't need extra help to push their popularity up. Monk is a class nobody I know wants to play but we have to force someone to play it as either tank or healer to cover the stupid buff even if these people would prefer to play different classes. Dps monk... well sorry, melee camp too small especially on bosses like blockade and conclave where too many melee are a detriment (what a surprise after uldir and its fetid / pre-nerf mythrax). Blizzard needs to stop designing bosses balanced around 3-5 melee dps tops if they want every guild to bring dh, warrior, monk for buffs and then have space for some.

Unless we wanna announce enhancement, feral, survival, ret, dps dk should be deleted from the game because there's no space for them after rogues and mandatory buff bots.

P.S. Ye I miss WOD where there were class buffs but each buff existed on 2-3 specs of different classes and then anything missing could be covered by a spare hunter.

[Turtel]

Has anyone tried simming their MM spec on raidbots after 8.1.5 went live? I've noticed that even after gaining 10 ilvls on my neck, my single target DPS sim dropped by about 500 compared to my sims from before the patch. Perhaps the sims are taking into account this issue that was brought up on the forums? (Apparently some buffs from 8.1 were accidentally removed in 8.1.5).

[Mavick]

Has anyone tried simming their MM spec on raidbots after 8.1.5 went live? I've noticed that even after gaining 10 ilvls on my neck, my single target DPS sim dropped by about 500 compared to my sims from before the patch. Perhaps the sims are taking into account this issue that was brought up on the forums? (Apparently some buffs from 8.1 were accidentally removed in 8.1.5).

Yes, the patch temporarily/inadvertently removed the 3% buff MM received with the trait changes from a few weeks back. This was hotfixed back ingame probably by the time you posted that, and raidbots/simcraft was updated shortly after so everything should be back as it was now.

[gixxpunk]

Buff seems to come out really nice. Crit based Dance of Death builds sim very well now.

/edit
( Pawn: v1: "Beast Mastery - Patchwerk (Raidbots)": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=2.46, CritRating=3.49, HasteRating=2.83, MasteryRating=2.91, Versatility=2.91, Dps=8.04 )

[nToxik]

lol Pawn stat weights mean nothing.