Is M+ a healthy or harmful addition to raiding

[Polarthief]

Let me say that farming a new balefire branch over and over again each new tier feels really bad.

But Blizzard seems determined to make raid trinkets ass.

This is easily the worst part of M+, as well as raiding when the trinkets are boring, shitty, uninspiring, or raid-leader rage-inducing (LOOKING AT YOU, SLIVER >:C).

However, it's an incredibly amazing design that keeps dungeons relevant and fun, and I can have a nice, challenging, experience in ~17-20 keys that I don't need to schedule time for (though still do w/ my group), and in the same content, I can have an incredibly relaxing 10 key for my friends'/guilds' alts, or sell keys and get some gold for it. Not to mention, both pieces of content can get me gear upgrades, and at worst, if I'm doing at least a 15, I'm guaranteed a Veiled Crystal, and if I'm helping F&F&G(uilides), I'm also getting brownie points w/ them with the chance of a veiled crystal (or a potential lucky TF or neat mog).

[Gaidax]

M+ is fine overall.

It has an odd item or two that may be of particular interest (like my trinket), but that's about it for me as Mythic Raider. We're certainly not forcing raiders to grind M+ mandatory, our rule is that you need to do 1 M+10 per week for the weekly chest, but that's it.

I think M+ is more of an issue for Heroic raiders specifically because it offers a directly competing gearing source there being same ilvl, but spammable, but I think Heroic raiders also need to sort of realize already that HC raids are nothing to write home about anyway.

[A Chozo]

It harmful for the players who think that it's required

Otherwise, nice addition for people who liked dungeons.

[cuafpr]

my vote is for harmful, i have no desire to do M+ nor do i find them fun.. but felt almost forced to since i was a tank, and falling behind in terms of ilvl from the rest of the raid team as they all ran M+ and i didn't.

[Voidwielder]

Don't care, if it wasn't for M+ I would have quit a long time ago, with many thousands as well.

[Mistaziggla]

Isnt the exactly a negative side of m+? You gotta do it or you dont raid because you are behind those who m+. Ok. I get it now!

Maybe you should find a new guild then? If your guild is benching you because you dont spam m+ you must be in some high end guild. Maybe you are just lying and your getting benched because you fail to mechanics or you dont know your rotation. But even then there are still plenty of guilds pushing mythic that have players like that, so idk why you gotta come in here blaming m+.

[Marrilaife]

What's unhealthy about m+ is you run it during week 2 of the season until your hands fall off, get geared equal to full hc raider so have no reason to hc raid (especially if raid items are garbage itemized, some classes might get a decent trinket or azerite out of raid), and also no reason to keep spamming m+ either so you just do the cache hoping for titanforge / wf weapon / residuum lootbox lottery.

It's an extremely frontloaded curve of gearing instead of being spread over longer period of time like it used to be in wow during times of raids / weekly caps / badges where there was steady trickle of gear instead of this shower on week 2 and then "why bother" apathy.

And because of every season being a gear reset, you can literally sub once per season, run m+ for 2-3 weeks, get "most bang for your buck" then unsub until next season that is 4-5 months away. How is that good model for a sub based game, beats me.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

What's unhealthy about m+ is you run it during week 2 of the season until your hands fall off, get geared equal to full hc raider so have no reason to hc raid (especially if raid items are garbage itemized, some classes might get a decent trinket or azerite out of raid), and also no reason to keep spamming m+ either so you just do the cache hoping for titanforge / wf weapon / residuum lootbox lottery.

It's an extremely frontloaded curve of gearing instead of being spread over longer period of time like it used to be in wow during times of raids / weekly caps / badges where there was steady trickle of gear instead of this shower on week 2 and then "why bother" apathy.

And because of every season being a gear reset, you can literally sub once per season, run m+ for 2-3 weeks, get "most bang for your buck" then unsub until next season that is 4-5 months away. How is that good model for a sub based game, beats me.

This is one of those things that is mostly theory and not practice though. Most people rely on a core group of friends/guild to actually do content, and it is very rare for them to all just play one month in a patch cycle and quit. Most groups can't really survive that. People generally stick around and keep playing, even if it is only a few days a week.

The person you are describing is someone who mostly pugs everything and therefore doesn't have to rely on actively maintaining social connections, or someone who is kind of abusing his/her existing friends who do stick around by expecting them to put up with the on again/off again behavior. I suspect those are both actually pretty rare cases.

Like every other feature of wow at this point, this is all kind of a rorschach test where people just project explanations for player behavior on whatever narrative best suites them. If people don't like m+? well then that's what's to blame. People don't like their class? Well, class design is to blame, etc.

[seasy]

What's unhealthy about m+ is you run it during week 2 of the season until your hands fall off, get geared equal to full hc raider so have no reason to hc raid (especially if raid items are garbage itemized, some classes might get a decent trinket or azerite out of raid), and also no reason to keep spamming m+ either so you just do the cache hoping for titanforge / wf weapon / residuum lootbox lottery.

It's an extremely frontloaded curve of gearing instead of being spread over longer period of time like it used to be in wow during times of raids / weekly caps / badges where there was steady trickle of gear instead of this shower on week 2 and then "why bother" apathy.

And because of every season being a gear reset, you can literally sub once per season, run m+ for 2-3 weeks, get "most bang for your buck" then unsub until next season that is 4-5 months away. How is that good model for a sub based game, beats me.

Another BS example.
First week is pretty much limited base ilvl from m+ and only HC raid drops the highest ilvl gear that week.
Second week mythic raid opens and you can get the highest base ilvl in the game.
I play m+ to push as high as possible with friends and not giving a shit about gear.
If you only play this game for gear and unsub after you get good gear i think you are playing the wrong game.

[ydraw]

Another BS example.
First week is pretty much limited base ilvl from m+ and only HC raid drops the highest ilvl gear that week.
Second week mythic raid opens and you can get the highest base ilvl in the game.
I play m+ to push as high as possible with friends and not giving a shit about gear.
If you only play this game for gear and unsub after you get good gear i think you are playing the wrong game.

Agreed.

The people who say it makes raiding obsolete just don't like raiding. If you're only in it for the gear anyway, what's the point?

[Ragnarohk]

M+ is like a cheap drug. It provides a great rush initially, but you burn out on it quickly and find that each subsequent rush is less despite increasing the dosage each time.

Same can be said about almost every aspect of the game. Including raiding.

[Weeps]

Raid gear should always be better performing than M+ gear.

[seasy]

Raid gear should always be better performing than M+ gear.

It currently is like this.
Mythic raid gear gives base 415 ilvl gear.
A +10 gives 400 base ilvl loot.
I don't think its fair if raiding only gives good gear and m+ doesn't give any good gear, i feel its pretty mixed right now which is good.

[Barzotti]

As a former decent raider (getting curve on multiple chars since Garrosh until Argus), M+ has been a blessing. I don't have the schedule nor the patience anymore to commit to 3 raiding hours multiples evenings a week. Besides, raiding can be incredibly boring (especially during long fights with lots of downtime) and I enjoy the fast paced action in M+. The different affixes and the scaling difficulty guarantee you won't do the same run twice.

I would have quit the game if M+ hadn't been introduced.

[Kuruption]

Don't care, if it wasn't for M+ I would have quit a long time ago, with many thousands as well.

100% this. If M+ was never introduced, I don't see myself playing all the way through Legion. Sure, it has its flaws, but I, along with 4-6 friends, find it a very fun thing to do on an offnight (kinda like Kara runs back in the day).

[HuxNeva]

For a pure raidlogger, everythiung added beside raids is bad no?

[msdos]

People have been drumming up huge praise and adoration for M+ the past 2 xpacs, even I was a fan in early Legion.

But in actual practice and over 2 years, raiding with 2 high end guilds, most the people I raided with didn't care for M+. They saw them as added chores and after the weekly 10, wouldn't run them.

Most raiders I ran into would rather wait for BiS to drop out of the raid then repeat M+ and I've found I've behaved that way naturally. I had a 380 and 385 trinket and I just waited until we were able to kill Mekka. I don't feel like running Atal every single day or multiple times a day for one item, it's ludicrous.

- - - Updated - - -

but I think Heroic raiders also need to sort of realize already that HC raids are nothing to write home about anyway.

Mythic+ and mythic raid are nothing to write home about either. Method dungeon tools runs the 5 man for you and your raid lead runs Mythic raid for you. None of the encounters in WoW are anything to write home about. You just wanted to feel superior lol.

Now the Mage Tower. That was something!

[Morae]

Maybe you should find a new guild then? If your guild is benching you because you dont spam m+ you must be in some high end guild. Maybe you are just lying and your getting benched because you fail to mechanics or you dont know your rotation. But even then there are still plenty of guilds pushing mythic that have players like that, so idk why you gotta come in here blaming m+.

So here we get to a negative side then again.

This solution would make me leave a guild and people who I have raided with since wotlk. It also doesnt change the fact that the reason for any of these is m+ which is too good source of gear. ect.

[seasy]

People have been drumming up huge praise and adoration for M+ the past 2 xpacs, even I was a fan in early Legion.

But in actual practice and over 2 years, raiding with 2 high end guilds, most the people I raided with didn't care for M+. They saw them as added chores and after the weekly 10, wouldn't run them.

Most raiders I ran into would rather wait for BiS to drop out of the raid then repeat M+ and I've found I've behaved that way naturally. I had a 380 and 385 trinket and I just waited until we were able to kill Mekka. I don't feel like running Atal every single day or multiple times a day for one item, it's ludicrous.

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Mythic+ and mythic raid are nothing to write home about either. Method dungeon tools runs the 5 man for you and your raid lead runs Mythic raid for you. None of the encounters in WoW are anything to write home about. You just wanted to feel superior lol.

Now the Mage Tower. That was something!

Doing a weekly +10 is indeed way different then pushing +20s.
I can see why you say method dungeon tools but it doesn't actually run anything for you, its just a tool to plan a route you still gotta execute the pathing and there are many ways to run certain dungeons with lots of skips here and there plus different affixes.
If your end game is only raiding i can see why you wouldn't like it, thats also the reason why bar is so low for the highest weekly chest.

[chiddie]

People have been drumming up huge praise and adoration for M+ the past 2 xpacs, even I was a fan in early Legion.

But in actual practice and over 2 years, raiding with 2 high end guilds, most the people I raided with didn't care for M+. They saw them as added chores and after the weekly 10, wouldn't run them.

Most raiders I ran into would rather wait for BiS to drop out of the raid then repeat M+ and I've found I've behaved that way naturally. I had a 380 and 385 trinket and I just waited until we were able to kill Mekka. I don't feel like running Atal every single day or multiple times a day for one item, it's ludicrous.

- - - Updated - - -



Mythic+ and mythic raid are nothing to write home about either. Method dungeon tools runs the 5 man for you and your raid lead runs Mythic raid for you. None of the encounters in WoW are anything to write home about. You just wanted to feel superior lol.

Now the Mage Tower. That was something!

Dude I just tried to run an M+, launched MDT and then pulled without doing anything else. We wiped so I clearly miss something in the tool usage.

Could you help me?