Is M+ a healthy or harmful addition to raiding

[Gaidax]

Mythic+ and mythic raid are nothing to write home about either. Method dungeon tools runs the 5 man for you and your raid lead runs Mythic raid for you. None of the encounters in WoW are anything to write home about. You just wanted to feel superior lol.

No, I was just stating the reality - HC raids are being pugged now and you can get a carry to clear it as well pretty easily. M+10 is nothing to write home about the same way as Heroic raiding.

Mythic raids, however, are quite a bit more challenging than either, even with BoD being easier there than it should have been. Mythic Jaina this tier is absolutely something to write home about, otherwise it would not have a dozen of top guilds crashing at it trying to snag world first with 110k viewer stream leading the way.

[Depakote]

It's a harmful addition to the game.

[Monolithi]

How would you feel if m+ gear dont work in raids and raid gear dont work in m+?
Something like pvp gear used to be in pvp power times? Making both paralel gearing paths, not complimentary ones. I wouldnt mind this, could focus only on m+ and skip raiding, which is quite boring and slowpaced sometimes....

[Skrimmz]

M+ has far and away more participation than raiding or arena or any other serious group activity. The various supporting systems could definitely use some tweaks, but anyone who doesn't think it is a huge success is kidding themselves.

Yes, honye! I don't doubt it. Standalone it is one of the... ehh THE best features blizz added to the game. What we are talking about is not the M+ itself but it's influence on raiding and how it makes raiding in HM and NM irrelevant aside of first (experience) clear

[jccallah]

M+ offers a pathway for people who just can't raid anymore. We have a group of 5 to 6 friends that have raided most every expansion since BC, however we are all older with families. We don't have the time to raid 4 to 6 hours a week (min to progress in any relevant content), but we can get on and run a couple keys and feel like we are progressing in the game. There are still raid pieces we would love to have and we try to get in pugs each week but it just doesn't happen often enough. I understand the mythic raiders feeling like it is an extra chore they have to do. However if you are a true mythic raider, it takes you 30 mins each week to run a 10 for the cache. That has to be far less of a chore than farming islands or world quests for azerite power.

[Netherblood]

It currently is like this.
Mythic raid gear gives base 415 ilvl gear.
A +10 gives 400 base ilvl loot.
I don't think its fair if raiding only gives good gear and m+ doesn't give any good gear, i feel its pretty mixed right now which is good.

Problem comes from the fact TFing exists and M+ don't have lockouts. You can keep gridning and eventually get +10-20ilvls or a socket. Sockets on Cloaks, Wrists, Belts and rings are huge. Raid trinkets often lose out to M+ trinkets too.

[La]

Just bring back tier sets, or make mythic raid level gear guarantee titanforge or something. That gives it the best gear, from the most challenging content (despite what you may think) while also creating incentive to raid. You could do the same thing for heroic, and make that gear guarantee warforge. As it is now, there's far more incentive to do M+ than there is to raid. There's a lot of things they could do that they do not want to because that would, in turn, remove the incentive for you to chase the carrot on the RNG stick.

[msdos]

People are contradicting themselves. Either Mythic raid is hard or it's easy. Either the raid is puggable week 1, day 1 or it isn't. Saying Heroic is puggable at the end of the patch is kinda silly. Yeah, no duh it's being pugged now that we're this far out.

M+ completely deletes the need to farm Normal or Heroic, you completely skip 3 difficulties and the Mythic difficulty is getting easier (despite what you may think), since there basically is no progression anymore. Mythic might as well be the only raid difficulty, what's the point of the other two and what's the point of not allowing people to cross realm pug Mythic from day 1?
Sometimes I think people want Mythic inaccessible just to feel special and claim it's super duper hard just to scare people away.

[Kokolums]

M+ is absolutely toxic with everyone trying for max efficiency and widespread impatience. I have not touched an M+ in over a month and have absolutely no desire to. Its even killed by desire to run 5 mans.

[Mistaziggla]

So here we get to a negative side then again.

This solution would make me leave a guild and people who I have raided with since wotlk. It also doesnt change the fact that the reason for any of these is m+ which is too good source of gear. ect.

So you've been raiding with them since WOTLK and now your getting benched because you don't spam m+, sorry that sounds like a load of shit to me.

If they are benching you maybe they dont enjoy raiding with you? I would imagine after 10+ years of raiding these are probably your friends?
Every guild has people they carry and if you know how to play your class being down a few ilvl for a few weeks wouldn't even constitute as a carry.

[Morae]

This isnt a question of who Im raiding with or anything of that subject. Its a question of "you hold back raid team, if you dont do m+". As officers put it "it just makes sense".

M+ is too good gear source. Therefore if its not mandatory, it is nearly that. "Everyone" does at least as chore. You can look back in this thread and you can find reasons. i do not need to list them here again for you.

[Pooti]

Its not a choice when M+ offers so much gear so easily that it is a requirement for most high end raid guilds, I think.

You are holding your raid team back, if you dont do m+.

It is still a choice, you just do not like one of the options.

[sosleapy]

So you've been raiding with them since WOTLK and now your getting benched because you don't spam m+, sorry that sounds like a load of shit to me.

If they are benching you maybe they dont enjoy raiding with you? I would imagine after 10+ years of raiding these are probably your friends?
Every guild has people they carry and if you know how to play your class being down a few ilvl for a few weeks wouldn't even constitute as a carry.

i was in a guild like this in legion. i raided with them before legion too and then all of a sudden the raid leader was saying you must do a M+ to raid. didnt have to be a high one which was no big deal just a 6+ at the time. needless to say there was so much push back from half the raid because it was a stupid idea to do it that the rule never went into effect.

so there is guilds out there that all of a sudden decide that you must run a high key or you aint running. for me if that was the case i would be finding a new home lol. you dont pay for my sub you are not going to demand i do a high key. and we was ONLY a casual guild getting aotc like a couple weeks before the next tier kinda guild lol. so it wasnt like we was anything close to hardcore.

[Mistaziggla]

i was in a guild like this in legion. i raided with them before legion too and then all of a sudden the raid leader was saying you must do a M+ to raid. didnt have to be a high one which was no big deal just a 6+ at the time. needless to say there was so much push back from half the raid because it was a stupid idea to do it that the rule never went into effect.

so there is guilds out there that all of a sudden decide that you must run a high key or you aint running. for me if that was the case i would be finding a new home lol. you dont pay for my sub you are not going to demand i do a high key. and we was ONLY a casual guild getting aotc like a couple weeks before the next tier kinda guild lol. so it wasnt like we was anything close to hardcore.

Yeah I can see a guild asking you to run at least one just for the cache, IDK why you wouldn't run at least one anyway unless you just absolutely hate m+ or don't have the time to do one. What the person I quoted was originally talking about was people spamming m+ for gear was resulting in them getting benched by their guild that they have apparently raided with for 10+ years, which I just don't buy.

Also any guild I have been in since legion, never had any m+ as mandatory, would always be willing to help any raider get their +10 for the week.

[parasight]

Do you raid to get loot? or do you get loot so that you can raid?

[sosleapy]

Yeah I can see a guild asking you to run at least one just for the cache, IDK why you wouldn't run at least one anyway unless you just absolutely hate m+ or don't have the time to do one. What the person I quoted was originally talking about was people spamming m+ for gear was resulting in them getting benched by their guild that they have apparently raided with for 10+ years, which I just don't buy.

Also any guild I have been in since legion, never had any m+ as mandatory, would always be willing to help any raider get their +10 for the week.

i absolutely hate m+ but i still force myself to do a 10+ and that is it unless i am farming mats for the eng mount so make money.

[Demeia]

Part of the problem here is math: Mythic+ employs 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps (60% dps). A 20m raid employs probably 4 healers, definitely 2 tanks, and 14 dps (70% dps). As we saw in Cata (were 25m went basically down to 10m), small-sizing raids leads to player loss.

Rewarding gear on par with raiding for an activity that simply doesn't require the same kind of organization as a bigger raid is not a great idea in any event.

Of course, if their intent is to kill raiding--and it may very well be since as the game contracts raiding may be too expensive to produce--than everything is working as intended.

[Aeula]

Maybe for the game, but for me personally I feel Mythic+ infringes upon the raid and dungeon fantasy of a group of adventurers exploring a dungeon filled with dangerous enemies and growing more powerful as they progress and instead replaces it with a very arcadey feeling system where the goal is to get the 'high score' and THEN get loot. And then go for an even higher score.

[Marrilaife]

Part of the problem here is math: Mythic+ employs 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps (60% dps). A 20m raid employs probably 4 healers, definitely 2 tanks, and 14 dps (70% dps). As we saw in Cata (were 25m went basically down to 10m), small-sizing raids leads to player loss.

Cata didn't lose players because you could raid 10 man, wotlk you could raid 10 man too so how can you attribute that correlation to Cata? Cata flopped partially due to heroic dungeons and normal mode raids being too difficult for average Joe (tuning, not group size), partially due to lack of casual content (awfully little of it until basically 4.2 halfway the expac) and partially due to much weaker lore poised against strong wotlk that just ended.

But yes, m+ has a problem, and that problem is overabundance of dps players in conjunction of much stricter meta than raiding, especially at comparable difficulty levels. Because dps are so much widely available than tanks / healers, keyholders making group can always wait for a "better" dps with either better class or more credentials, which creates a vicious cycle for non-meta "unwanted" dps specs, because it's even harder for them to get into groups and get their ilvl / r.io score etc. up to get better credentials. Especially for melee dps it's became reroll fotm or die. Even if you are the keyholder, that means while you can still invite whoever you want, players can leave the group instantly when they see low score or non-meta class group leader.

Also Blizzard really doesn't care to balance specs better, especially for m+, so the meta got old and stale with very little changes. They put much more effort to push underdog classes up in representation in arena than in m+, even though they claim both are "e-sports" now. And at least arena is more about which classes fit into which comps, while m+ is like "rogue / havoc dh fit into every comp!" M+ did a lot of harm to class / spec diversity, together with Blizzard idleness on the subject.

[Th3Scourge]

M+ is keeping me subbed. Give me my 425 Jes' Howler already!