DOJ Asking Courts to Strike down ACA, Protections for Preexisting Conditions, etc

[Machismo]

What part of forcing pharma and companies that make devices to drive prices down by bargaining do you not get? Why is it that the rest of the world gets to bargain their prices so insulin is $13 in Canada but $275 in USA from the SAME COMPANY?

Why is it Americans allow American owned hospital and pharma to rape their pockets while the rest of the world has decent prices?

You think insulin would be 275 with government bargaining? Having everyone under an umbrella forces companies to give the best for the cheapest price to win the fucking huge contract of the American populace.

That's the problem... force. I'm not a big fan of using the government to force things. I'd much rather simply open up the markets, and allow for any company to create those devices.

[Nellise]

That's the problem... force. I'm not a big fan of using the government to force things. I'd much rather simply open up the markets, and allow for any company to create those devices.

What stops a large company from buying up anybody that tries to create a competing product or pay them off to not release it? It takes a lot of money to get a medical device or pharmaceutical to market and no company is going to blow all that money without some hope of a profitable return.

[Machismo]

What stops a large company from buying up anybody that tries to create a competing product or pay them off to not release it? It takes a lot of money to get a medical device or pharmaceutical to market and no company is going to blow all that money without some hope of a profitable return.

That's rather simple, another company can just come along and do the same thing. If anyone can release a product, then they would have to pay off everyone to not produce it. That adds to their overhead costs, making their business model less efficient.

[Nellise]

That's rather simple, another company can just come along and do the same thing. If anyone can release a product, then they would have to pay off everyone to not produce it. That adds to their overhead costs, making their business model less efficient.

So what incentive do they have to develop a new product if they get nothing in return because someone else can immediately steal their design but without all the research costs?

[Machismo]

So what incentive do they have to develop a new product if they get nothing in return because someone else can immediately steal their design but without all the research costs?

They are able to get to the market first, and sell a product that has demand. If you are going to argue in favor of patent protections, then you shouldn't get upset when those same companies charge out the ass for things like insulin.

[Nellise]

They are able to get to the market first, and sell a product that has demand. If you are going to argue in favor of patent protections, then you shouldn't get upset when those same companies charge out the ass for things like insulin.

I'm assuming you're against safety trials and FDA approvals being necessary for medical products? If they still need those, the design would be public way before the product ever reached the market, so competitors could be ready to ship product the same day they're approved. If you're not for safety protocols for medical products, well, you're insane.

[Machismo]

I'm assuming you're against safety trials and FDA approvals being necessary for medical products? If they still need those, the design would be public way before the product ever reached the market, so competitors could be ready to ship product the same day they're approved. If you're not for safety protocols for medical products, well, you're insane.

I despise the FDA, yes. I find it to be possibly the most corrupt and inefficient government agency we have at the federal level.

[Nellise]

I despise the FDA, yes. I find it to be possibly the most corrupt and inefficient government agency we have at the federal level.

So medical products wouldn't go through the clinical trial process and just be sold as soon as they can and whatever happens happens, screw whoever gets hurt or killed? It'll be like the 19th century, yay.

[Themius]

That's the problem... force. I'm not a big fan of using the government to force things. I'd much rather simply open up the markets, and allow for any company to create those devices.

That’s the system we have now. How’s that working out? Richest country paying most per capita on overpriced healthcare that doesn’t cover everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

So medical products wouldn't go through the clinical trial process and just be sold as soon as they can and whatever happens happens, screw whoever gets hurt or killed? It'll be like the 19th century, yay.

Literally everything he says is bad and gets worse.

[Machismo]

So medical products wouldn't go through the clinical trial process and just be sold as soon as they can and whatever happens happens, screw whoever gets hurt or killed? It'll be like the 19th century, yay.

Sure, let's do it. If you don't like it, don't buy a product, until you can see that it went though a voluntary medical trial.

- - - Updated - - -

That’s the system we have now. How’s that working out? Richest country paying most per capita on overpriced healthcare that doesn’t cover everyone.

- - - Updated - - -




Literally everything he says is bad and gets worse.

The system we have now is government-mandated corporatism. The ACA merely forced people to pay into that corporatist model. I oppose it all.

[bladeXcrasher]

What stops a large company from buying up anybody that tries to create a competing product or pay them off to not release it? It takes a lot of money to get a medical device or pharmaceutical to market and no company is going to blow all that money without some hope of a profitable return.

Nothing, but people like machismo like to conveniently forget about standard oil and a myriad of other huge corporations that abused workers due to a lack of regulation. Companies that formed huge trusts and muscled and cheated out all competitors. Any post-1877 history book would explain the issues well enough, I suggest Foner's Give Me Liberty II.

[Themius]

Sure, let's do it. If you don't like it, don't buy a product, until you can see that it went though a voluntary medical trial.

- - - Updated - - -



The system we have now is government-mandated corporatism. The ACA merely forced people to pay into that corporatist model. I oppose it all.

Mmhm... so what are you for?

[Machismo]

Mmhm... so what are you for?

Freedom of choice.

[Themius]

Freedom of choice.

Do you want to do away with current Medicaid and Medicare taxes?

[Ivanstone]

Freedom of choice.

Free-dumb more like it. You still don't grasp that one's person freedom very often comes at the expense of someone else's.

Healthcare is not a commodity. A person who requires healthcare is very often making a choice between death or permanent injury versus money. That's not a real choice.

[Nellise]

Sure, let's do it. If you don't like it, don't buy a product, until you can see that it went though a voluntary medical trial.

So what would happen in your ideal world in this case, which is something that just happened the past few weeks: A company has an extremely promising drug for Alzheimer's, which would be the first drug that would have been proven to be effective. It was suggested that this would have had a huge market, several billions of dollars a year. After years of tests and some initial encouraging results, the trial was stopped during its stage 3 trials because it was determined it was no more effective than a placebo. It was such a blow, the company lost $16 billion in stock value in a day.

If I'm understanding you right, you would have allowed them to release it 5 years ago to the public without testing. Given that Alzhemier's is so debilitating and guaranteed death, many people would have tried it just to have some hope. The company gets to make billions of dollars off of something that did nothing to help, but it's only realized after many people have died and had their money taken. That's what you want to see?

[Machismo]

Do you want to do away with current Medicaid and Medicare taxes?

Absolutely, yes.

- - - Updated - - -

Free-dumb more like it. You still don't grasp that one's person freedom very often comes at the expense of someone else's.

Healthcare is not a commodity. A person who requires healthcare is very often making a choice between death or permanent injury versus money. That's not a real choice.

Great talking point...

People should be free to spend their own money how they want to. That's not taking away anyone else's freedom.

- - - Updated - - -

So what would happen in your ideal world in this case, which is something that just happened the past few weeks: A company has an extremely promising drug for Alzheimer's, which would be the first drug that would have been proven to be effective. It was suggested that this would have had a huge market, several billions of dollars a year. After years of tests and some initial encouraging results, the trial was stopped during its stage 3 trials because it was determined it was no more effective than a placebo. It was such a blow, the company lost $16 billion in stock value in a day.

If I'm understanding you right, you would have allowed them to release it 5 years ago to the public without testing. Given that Alzhemier's is so debilitating and guaranteed death, many people would have tried it just to have some hope. The company gets to make billions of dollars off of something that did nothing to help, but it's only realized after many people have died and had their money taken. That's what you want to see?

Sure, they can release it, and people who are not informed consumers would buy into the placebo... just like people buy into herbal supplements and diet pills.

[Nellise]

Sure, they can release it, and people who are not informed consumers would buy into the placebo... just like people buy into herbal supplements and diet pills.

They wouldn't be uninformed, they're desperate. They only have so many years before the disease ruins their brain and eventually kills them. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing about this, it's clear this is insanity.

[Machismo]

They wouldn't be uninformed, they're desperate. They only have so many years before the disease ruins their brain and eventually kills them. But I'm not sure why I'm arguing about this, it's clear this is insanity.

My issue is with the desire to forcibly socialize it all. If you want to voluntarily socialize such things, good for you. The second you want to use the government to take away money from the unwilling, then I have a problem with it.

[Nellise]

My issue is with the desire to forcibly socialize it all. If you want to voluntarily socialize such things, good for you. The second you want to use the government to take away money from the unwilling, then I have a problem with it.

The government is us voluntarily socializing it. We vote to have them do stuff for us. You don't get to pick and choose which parts you only want to apply to yourself if you want any of the benefits being part of a civilized society provides.