Julian Assange of WikiLeaks soon to be expelled from Ecuador Embassy

[Flarelaine]

The big ticket countries are exactly who you would expect:

Afghanistan ($200m)
Egypt ($850m)
Jordan ($460m)
Oman ($210m)
Qatar ($180m)
Thailand ($280m)
UAE ($455m)

Everyone else is thousands to a few millions of dollars. Like Rwanda got $40,000 for crying out loud. That's what my new kitchen is costing me.

While I agree with the main thrust of your post, you missed the largest sum which arguably went to the worst offender: $10B for Saudi Arabia. Yes, I know, it is about regional stability but it still does not look good.

[Skroe]

So why do you misgender and deadname a trans woman? Why is one form of bigotry ok, but one isn't? Should I have asked if you call gay people f*gs or Jews k*kes?

Because I don't care? Why are you having a hard time digesting this? Like I just don't care what Bradley Manning identifies as. I only see a felon who betrayed the country. It's irrelevant.

They were all war crimes. Civilians were targeted and massacred. If they are not, what is there to hide? Also, lol collateral damage. Nice dehumanization. Non sociopaths call them human beings.

War crimes requires intent. Last decade, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court made clear in their open memo regarding investigation of War Crimesin Iraq that in the real world - that is to say, in the world outside the one where people on the internet call things they don't like that the US does a "war crime" - the intent of the accused perpetrator is central to the issue, and he found that cases of supposed war crimes where there was intent, the US investigated and prosecuted those crimes.

Want to know how much that prosecutor "got it" with regards to public opinion and War Crimes? He went out of his way to explain how countries can't commit war crimes - only individuals can, and war is not a war crime in and of itself, and war crimes are specific charges with a general label for ease of use.

The shit you are saying is legitimately out of last decade. It's so old it's applying to colleges. Yes. US troops committed War crimes in the war. And the US has charged many cases involving that. But there is a standard that's more stringent than what you think a war crime should be and since the entire stupid war on terror started, folks have decided that really the only definition that mattered is "things the US is doing that I don't like".

It's not about the economic interests of all Americans. Politicians don't give a fuck about those. They don't care about the overall economy. Otherwise you'd have free health care and college education to better your population. It is about making specific people money. Cronies. And those specific people get very rich. The cost of the war is paid by the US tax payers. Look at the deficit skyrocketing.

Man you can't get anything right can you? Politicians absolutely care about the overall economy. The US defense industry is not in every district or states. It's not even in most. Politicians get elected on the basis of people having a stable job, and most employment in the US is in small business - 20 employees or less, and not big business.

Secondly, there was no US consensus on Health Care until the last few years, and there still isn't one on free college.

Thirdly, the US deficit is chiefly caused by entitlements (namely healthcare costs), not defense expenditures. Another lie of yours. Medicare growth is growing at 7.4% per year and Medicaid at 5.5%. Defense, by contrast, grows around 3-3.5% per year.

https://www.cms.gov/research-statist...act-sheet.html

If anything the US is spending way too much on Healthcare, not too little. If we want to fix our budget deficit, we need to reduce the cost of Healthcare, while still providing the services needed.

So, then what's the problem with exposing the shit the US did while going on this fool's errant?

Almost nothing Assange and Wikileaks exposed has been with regards to that. I don't care about the Bradley Manning shit. Or even the State Department cables. I care about the Snowden NSA leak far away more, with the DNC leak a second place, with the State Department leak and the Manning leak a distant third.

The NSA leak was long term hugely damaging to the US's ability to engage in legitimate spying activities. And considering the overwhelming sum of it had little to do with anything that was in the public interest and most of which was targeted at Russia, China and Terrorism, it was in utter bad faith for Wikileaks and its defenders to claim that the fraction of it that was controversial - domestic evesdropping and spying on key allies like Merkel - constituted justification for releasing tools and methods that allowed for perfectly normal and right spying on our adversaries.

Snowden did it because he's a nut. Because he's believed that countries shouldn't spy on each other except in times of war. Given how many times intelligence gathering has prevent major conflagrations, that's so history stupid, it's mind-boggling he said it out loud.

Some lousy video of US troops doing something wrong? I don't care. It's too small scale. I care about big picture. And the big picture is, the US ability to spy on Russia and China were weakened because of Assange and Snowden, period. Assange must be brought to justice for that, in time, above anything else.

This State Department cable stuff? Julian Assange insisted it showed "war crimes" and what not. It of course, didn't. He made it up because he had a dud to follow up "Collateral Murder" he needed to hype, and sure enough, the State Department Cables fizzled quickly because the only thing it really showed was the Foreign Service being good at its job and following the law..

For now, it's a good excuse to get him in an American jail. But it's bringing him to justice for the NSA leak that matters.

I stated nothing but facts. The US is one of the worst empires the earth ever saw.

Write a letter to the editor.

Those are their internal affairs. Morally I of course object, but in the end what a people does to their own is only the business of their people.

That's absolutely nutty. Wow.

I'm just repeating what Republicans are saying whenever the Electoral College is criticized.

You're just showing you have no idea what you're talking about and mostly just trying to stir up shit.

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While I agree with the main thrust of your post, you missed the largest sum which arguably went to the worst offender: $10B for Saudi Arabia. Yes, I know, it is about regional stability but it still does not look good.

I just glanced looked over it in my haste. Yeah good catch.

But, and I'll be direct, the US should absolutely support Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, the UAE, Jordan and Eypgt. Those governments aren't going anywhere fast. And it's in our interest to keep them in our camp, and out of China and Russia's.

Because that's what happens if the US pulls support from them. The Arabs, led by the Saudis and Egypt, will find a new patron. Probably Russia since they don't take China seriously for a number of reasons (yet, but they will in time).

The thing that gets me about the moral wrangling about this that some folks show is they really think of the US didn't do it there would be some kind of vacuum. That isn't how anything works. Russia has already significantly expanded its interests in the Middle East because of the Syrian conflict, especially as the US has, in fact, hugely deleveraged from the region to focus on European continental and Asian-Pacific security versus Russia and China.

So in fact, the people who have a moral objection to the US holding hands with the Saudis may very well get their wish, if the #2 and #3 oil producers in the world - both dictatorships - strike up some kind of strategic relationship in the years ahead as the US focuses on places very far afield from the Middle East. From the Saudi perspective, they'd be right to seek a new patron. After all, Eastern European or South China Sea peace isn't a Saudi concern. They just want stability in their kingdom and Iran kept under lock and key. They'll be friends with whoever provides that. If its the US, then its the US. If its Russia, its Russia.

The great game continues.

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Quoting this for actual progressives and lefties in this forum so you can see who your "ally" is.

Why don't you throw my quote into your sig next to Noam Chomsky, another nut.

I delight in the fact Scumbag Manning - let's just call him that from now on and sidestep the whole identity nonsense - is currently in jail again.

[karlwarth]

The world isn't at threat from some small scale dictatorships (and that includes North Korea). It's at threat from Russia and China. Particularly China. The most important mission in the US world is to keep Russian revisionism and Chinese authoritarian capitalism from supplanting the liberal democratic order since World War II. Those are the existential threats to the global order. Everything else - Iran, North Korea, terrorism to name a few - are nuisances at best.

Thanks! Some honesty. I wasn't expecting that!

To be honest the argument that "we are not russia or china" is probably the best argument going for the US right now.

Just stop with the liberal democracy bullshit, no one believes that after Bush and Trump.

Right now I feel like China is probably a better world leader than the US, but it depends on which nation committed an atrocity most recently. The China have a disadvantage that they seem to be locking dissenters up randomly on spurious grounds but then again they didn't put a fucking moron in charge of a nuclear arsenal.

[Pipebomb]

Think his arrest has anything to do with the Mueller report?

[Voidwielder]

@Skroe - Under what jurisdiction does this non-American citizen fall?

[Independent voter]

NATO deaths in Afghanistan

USA: 2,313*
UK: 456
Canada: 157*
France: 88
Germany: 57
Italy: 53
Poland: 44[2]
Denmark: 43
Australia: 41
Spain: 35*
Georgia: 32
Romania: 26
Netherlands: 25
Turkey: 15
Czech Republic: 14
New Zealand: 10
Norway: 10
Estonia: 9
Hungary: 7
Sweden: 5
Latvia: 4
Slovakia: 3
Finland: 2
Jordan: 2
Portugal: 2
South Korea: 2
Albania: 1
Belgium: 1
Lithuania: 1
Montenegro: 1

Bradly Manning leaked information that got NATO troops killed. He admitted and apologized for this. The documents he leaked had detailed information about Afghan informants working for NATO. These informants were captured by the Taliban and tortured to death.

Informants who could've warned NATO troops about ambushes, etc.

Assage was part of the Bradly Manning leak and is part responsible.

[Skroe]

Thanks! Some honesty. I wasn't expecting that!

To be honest the argument that "we are not russia or china" is probably the best argument going for the US right now.

Just stop with the liberal democracy bullshit, no one believes that after Bush and Trump.

Right now I feel like China is probably a better world leader than the US, but it depends on which nation committed an atrocity most recently. The China have a disadvantage that they seem to be locking dissenters up randomly on spurious grounds but then again they didn't put a fucking moron in charge of a nuclear arsenal.

The US is a liberal democracy. Trump and Bush don't change that. If anything, Trump has proven to be an excellent stress test of that. Our instutitutions have resisted his authoritarian impulses well. The threat from Trump largely remains theoretical. This is a man, after all, who has a whopping 94% loss rate in the courts since his inauguration, and has a mere three notable achievements to his name (a tax cut and two Supreme Court justices). The budget - how things happen in America - he has signed now three times, is pretty much the same one Obama signed three times.

And considering the only plot line of the 21st century that matters is between Chinese Capitalist Authoritarianism / Mercantilism, and the American-led rules-based, free-market liberal-democratic-leading world order, your options are limited. You will live in one or the other.

Folks want some third option. There won't be one. Europe has decades ahead of it fulfilling the EU's promise, and even then, is firmly in the liberal democratic camp. Russia probably won't exist in the form we know it today in another 25 years.

If over the next five or six decades, America comes out on top, well, it'll be the 1990s again. If China does, you'll see lots of places that are currently liberal democracies become capitalist authoritarian regimes, or redesign their economies to be supplicants to China.

The US conflict with Russia and China... and we're talking like 75% China and 25% Russia here... is the only thing that matters. Climate Change, human migration, economic changes, demographic changes, infectous disease... they matter chiefly in the sense of how the effect the New Cold War. For example, Climate Change is hugely significant with clear global, regional and local ramification (duh) but the most acute effects of it with respect to global security is how those consequences impact the US/Chinese balance of power. Like if a famine were to destabilize a region important to both and bring the US and China in close military proximity to each other (like Russia and the US in Syria). That's how this works.

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Think his arrest has anything to do with the Mueller report?

Nope. Maybe down the line. I think he'll get nailed for the NSA Leak / Snowden Affair long before that though. The question is how to nail him for that. The Grand Jury sidesteped the "journalist issue" here by charging him with helping manning crack passwords. That's something journalists emphatically do not do. The NSA leak was done by Snowden and his chief contact was Glenn Greenwald at the Guardian, who unlike Assange, did not help Snowden steal the data directly, and rather facilitated release of information after Snowden committed the theft on his own. In other words, there is no analog of Greenwald helping Snowden in the way Assange helped Manning, because Greenwald is actually a journalist and has somewhat of a professional standard (and knows legally what not to do) and Assange is not.

This is relevant because Assange also was involved in the Snowden affair, but later, after Greenwald. Greenwald reported on the theft and the contents of it. He had access to the Snowden files, reviewed them, and said what was in them. But he did not share the treasure trove. Assange, by contrast, dumped it all on line shortly after. This is important because in the US, it is a transmit and to receive classified information and not have the authorization to do so, but there is ample precedent of journalists reporting on leaked classified information that they received or saw. But news organizations generally don't do data dumps. Wikileaks did. So they could probably nail Assange for something involving that, that separates his vulnerability to charges from Greenwald, who, while a real piece of work, didn't seem to do anything far removed from what other journalists have done.

Christ, defending that Russia-hugging scumbag really makes my skin crawl.

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@Skroe - Under what jurisdiction does this non-American citizen fall?

What do you mean 'jurisdiction'? He's in British Custody, but an Australian and Ecuadorean citizen. Whenever he is extradited to US Federal Courts (it was a Federal Grand Jury in Virginia that indicted him), it'll probably be consistent with whatever agreements are in place with the UK, Australia and Ecuador... the UK as the extraditing party and the other two as countries that claim him as a citizen. That'll probably mean assurance to the UK he won't be executed (which is obviously the case), and consular access to Australia and Ecuadorian officials at his request.

But otherwise he'll be entitled to the full rights of any defendant in Federal Court.

[NED funded]

So why do you misgender and deadname a trans woman? Why is one form of bigotry ok, but one isn't? Should I have asked if you call gay people f*gs or Jews k*kes?



They were all war crimes. Civilians were targeted and massacred. If they are not, what is there to hide? Also, lol collateral damage. Nice dehumanization. Non sociopaths call them human beings.



It's not about the economic interests of all Americans. Politicians don't give a fuck about those. They don't care about the overall economy. Otherwise you'd have free health care and college education to better your population. It is about making specific people money. Cronies. And those specific people get very rich. The cost of the war is paid by the US tax payers. Look at the deficit skyrocketing.

Of course there is also jingoistic racism. Brown people and Muslims being slaughtered is always a bonus to the likes of Bush, Bolton or even journalists like Krauthammer or Frum, who drummed up that shit.



So, then what's the problem with exposing the shit the US did while going on this fool's errant?

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I stated nothing but facts. The US is one of the worst empires the earth ever saw.

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Those are their internal affairs. Morally I of course object, but in the end what a people does to their own is only the business of their people.

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I'm just repeating what Republicans are saying whenever the Electoral College is criticized.

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You really have no idea what you are talking about. Most bigots don't.

This is straight out of Candace Owens lol.

[Voidwielder]

What do you mean 'jurisdiction'? He's in British Custody, but an Australian and Ecuadorean citizen. Whenever he is extradited to US Federal Courts (it was a Federal Grand Jury in Virginia that indicted him), it'll probably be consistent with whatever agreements are in place with the UK, Australia and Ecuador... the UK as the extraditing party and the other two as countries that claim him as a citizen. That'll probably mean assurance to the UK he won't be executed (which is obviously the case), and consular access to Australia and Ecuadorian officials at his request.

But otherwise he'll be entitled to the full rights of any defendant in Federal Court.

So you believe that the US executive branch has the right to indict and try citizens of any country? Do other countries have or should they have this power, too?

[ezgeze]

one of the leaked documents he sent out was of the anti-AED warlock system which gave terrorists new methods to ensure their bombs killed us servicemen.

Hope he spends the rest of his life in supermax

[Skroe]

So you believe that the US executive branch has the right to indict and try citizens of any country? Do other countries have or should they have this power, too?

A grand jury, not the executive branch, indicted Assange. Under the Fifth Amendment, federal crimes that are felonies (not misdemeanors) are indicted by a grand jury. Almost all cases that proceed to trial occur after a grand jury indictment. Without a grand jury, the prosecutor has to show to the trial judge that there is significant enough evidence to continue to take the case to a trial. This is very rare.

US courts have the right to indict and try foreigners. US law carries to foreign soil. It's not a matter of "belief". It is simply a fact. We get them through extradition treaties when we can. The process works in the opposite case to, and yes, the US does and should extradite its citizens. We cannot demand what we will not in turn give. There are protections in place to protect their rights from being violated.

[sam86]

Doesn't make him any less of a rapist.

a guy who exposed many of some of worst dirt shady stuff governments do with solid evidence word, against the words of governments that were f8cking us even now and he exposed them
yeah for some reason i don't believe any accusation against him
Or u still believe word of government even after it was exposed how corrupted self serving it is ?

[Elba]

Because I don't care? Why are you having a hard time digesting this? Like I just don't care what Bradley Manning identifies as. I only see a felon who betrayed the country. It's irrelevant.

So you would call a black person you thought was a traitor a n*gger after all? Because why would you care?

Exposing war crimes is not treason btw. Your government are the traitors to your people.

War crimes requires intent. Last decade, the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court made clear in their open memo regarding investigation of War Crimesin Iraq that in the real world - that is to say, in the world outside the one where people on the internet call things they don't like that the US does a "war crime" - the intent of the accused perpetrator is central to the issue, and he found that cases of supposed war crimes where there was intent, the US investigated and prosecuted those crimes.

Want to know how much that prosecutor "got it" with regards to public opinion and War Crimes? He went out of his way to explain how countries can't commit war crimes - only individuals can, and war is not a war crime in and of itself, and war crimes are specific charges with a general label for ease of use.

The shit you are saying is legitimately out of last decade. It's so old it's applying to colleges. Yes. US troops committed War crimes in the war. And the US has charged many cases involving that. But there is a standard that's more stringent than what you think a war crime should be and since the entire stupid war on terror started, folks have decided that really the only definition that mattered is "things the US is doing that I don't like".

They murdered civilians including journalists and then turned around and murdered the first responders. And laughed about it.

"things the US is doing that I don't like".

Also known as "murdering civilians". Just stop killing civilians. Even non Americans have a right to live. You might disagree, but human rights apply to everybody. We are also human beings, dude.

Man you can't get anything right can you? Politicians absolutely care about the overall economy. The US defense industry is not in every district or states. It's not even in most. Politicians get elected on the basis of people having a stable job, and most employment in the US is in small business - 20 employees or less, and not big business.

Politicians care about two things: Power and making money. Nothing else.

Secondly, there was no US consensus on Health Care until the last few years, and there still isn't one on free college.

Thirdly, the US deficit is chiefly caused by entitlements (namely healthcare costs), not defense expenditures. Another lie of yours. Medicare growth is growing at 7.4% per year and Medicaid at 5.5%. Defense, by contrast, grows around 3-3.5% per year.

https://www.cms.gov/research-statist...act-sheet.html

If anything the US is spending way too much on Healthcare, not too little. If we want to fix our budget deficit, we need to reduce the cost of Healthcare, while still providing the services needed.

Well, maybe get universal health care, as I said. That would reduce the costs drastically. Works for us here. Capitalism in your health care is bad, yo.

Almost nothing Assange and Wikileaks exposed has been with regards to that. I don't care about the Bradley Manning shit. Or even the State Department cables. I care about the Snowden NSA leak far away more, with the DNC leak a second place, with the State Department leak and the Manning leak a distant third.

The NSA leak was long term hugely damaging to the US's ability to engage in legitimate spying activities. And considering the overwhelming sum of it had little to do with anything that was in the public interest and most of which was targeted at Russia, China and Terrorism, it was in utter bad faith for Wikileaks and its defenders to claim that the fraction of it that was controversial - domestic evesdropping and spying on key allies like Merkel - constituted justification for releasing tools and methods that allowed for perfectly normal and right spying on our adversaries.

Snowden did it because he's a nut. Because he's believed that countries shouldn't spy on each other except in times of war. Given how many times intelligence gathering has prevent major conflagrations, that's so history stupid, it's mind-boggling he said it out loud.

As a German I find our supposed "ally" spying on us to be quite substantial.

Some lousy video of US troops doing something wrong? I don't care. It's too small scale. I care about big picture. And the big picture is, the US ability to spy on Russia and China were weakened because of Assange and Snowden, period. Assange must be brought to justice for that, in time, above anything else.

Thanks for being honest at least. Skroe does not care about US troops slaughtering civilians. Thanks for admitting that.

This State Department cable stuff? Julian Assange insisted it showed "war crimes" and what not. It of course, didn't. He made it up because he had a dud to follow up "Collateral Murder" he needed to hype, and sure enough, the State Department Cables fizzled quickly because the only thing it really showed was the Foreign Service being good at its job and following the law..

For now, it's a good excuse to get him in an American jail. But it's bringing him to justice for the NSA leak that matters.

This whole thing is so funny. You don't give a fuck about the US doing shady and immoral shit like massacres and spying on your allies, you only care that it got exposed.

Seriously, no nation should be allied with you. Nobody can trust you.

@Skroe in summary: "Murder and betrayal of our allies = whatever! Exposing those things = The real crime!"

Write a letter to the editor.

You're a sociopath.

That's absolutely nutty. Wow.

It's not, I just uphold my believe in the Prime Directive.

You're just showing you have no idea what you're talking about and mostly just trying to stir up shit.

Dunno, semantics are important.

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This is straight out of Candace Owens lol.

I am merely adhering to the Prime Directive. And as a German, I indeed agree with Candance Owens. As long as we stayed within our borders what we did was our business alone. I of course morally object to pretty much everything that Hitler did.

[Seranthor]

I am merely adhering to the Prime Directive. And as a German, I indeed agree with Candance Owens. As long as we stayed within our borders what we did was our business alone. I of course morally object to pretty much everything that Hitler did.

Except murdering babies... you dont object to that.

[Voidwielder]

US courts have the right to indict and try foreigners. US law carries to foreign soil. It's not a matter of "belief". It is simply a fact. We get them through extradition treaties when we can. The process works in the opposite case to, and yes, the US does and should extradite its citizens. We cannot demand what we will not in turn give. There are protections in place to protect their rights from being violated.

You realize that in this case, the prosecution is for a crime that is a crime domestically, yes? It is illegal in Russia to fraudulently hack bank accounts (and also in the US). What is happening is the globalization of American legal jurisdiction.

[thathwotha]

You realize that in this case, the prosecution is for a crime that is a crime domestically, yes? It is illegal in Russia to fraudulently hack bank accounts (and also in the US). What is happening is the globalization of American legal jurisdiction.

That's a very worrying thing about this. It is increasingly the case that the US can try anybody anywhere since it controls most of the internet infrastructure. Even if you don't support Assange non-americans should be wary of any precedent set here.

[Skroe]

You realize that in this case, the prosecution is for a crime that is a crime domestically, yes? It is illegal in Russia to fraudulently hack bank accounts (and also in the US). What is happening is the globalization of American legal jurisdiction.

Yep I realize that. America is one of the few countries in the world where laws have global reach. An American committing a crime in a foreign country can be held accountable under US law. A foreigner committing a crime against the US in a foreign country can be held accountable too.

That's a good thing.

The perks of being a superpower. If Russia want's to try global jurisdiction, they should go for it.

[Laerrus]

Good. His butt can rot in a Federal prison next to Paul Manafort (and hopefully soon Roger Stone too). I have no sympathy for anyone that knowingly aids the enemy.

I see PFC Manning is still in prison too. Good, she can rot in there with Assange.

[Skroe]

So you would call a black person you thought was a traitor a n*gger after all? Because why would you care?

Nope. I wouldn't.

Exposing war crimes is not treason btw. Your government are the traitors to your people.

Nah. You just don't like what the US does. It's as simple as that. Your assent is not required, foreigner.

They murdered civilians including journalists and then turned around and murdered the first responders. And laughed about it.

You should write to the Chief Prosecutor of the ICC if you have evidence of these.

Also known as "murdering civilians". Just stop killing civilians. Even non Americans have a right to live. You might disagree, but human rights apply to everybody. We are also human beings, dude.

Politicians care about two things: Power and making money. Nothing else.

Lousy dodge. Basically you're just making shit up. Like the entirety of this post, which let's be clear, I'm entirely humoring you over and haven't taken remotely seriously.

I mean you've basically spent three replies to me making things up because the US pisses you off.

Well, maybe get universal health care, as I said. That would reduce the costs drastically. Works for us here. Capitalism in your health care is bad, yo.

Might happen. But let's be clear, until about five minutes ago, Americans 85% of which had healthcare before Obamacare, weren't terribly interested in paying for the healthcare for their fellow man.

You do realize for a big trans-formative thing like Universal healthcare to happen, the politics in the country have to reach a critical mass for it? We're getting there. We're not there yet. But this is like a new thing. Historically, in this country, the concern has been first about the cost of healthcare, for the 85% of Americans who do have it. Helping the then 15%, now about 6%, of Americans who lack it, was secondary. Now going the next step - getting that number to 0%, and pressing costs down broadly, is how we're getting "Medicare for all" and other ideas.

So check back in a decade.

As a German I find our supposed "ally" spying on us to be quite substantial.

Do you know why this is? Really? Because you can be bought and everyone knows it.

Since the end of World War II, Germans, both East and West, have played both sides of the American/Soviet divide. Even in the post-Cold War era, with unified Germany, your country's frankly, notably lack of patriotism about Germany, has made it easy for Americans and Russians and businesses to buy your politicians.

This is why the US won't let Germany into FIVEEYES. We trust Germany. Germany is America's most important European ally. We just don't trust you with the crown jewels. And we have good reason not to. We've seen how people you elect or your government hires exploits Germany's position as the gateway of Europe for personal benefit.

Again with the State Department cables, one Foreign Service Officer called home and relayed a story how he had to tell a German government official that in the real world, unlike Hollywood, the US doesn't just recruit foreign agents by having them walk into an embassy and offer their services in exchange for something (in this case, student visas for his kids). That man offered to sell your country out, on his own volition. Nobody made him walk in there.

Yes, America spies on Germany. And Germany should absolutely spy on America.

Thanks for being honest at least. Skroe does not care about US troops slaughtering civilians. Thanks for admitting that.

My pleasure.




[QUOTE=Elba;51061468]
This whole thing is so funny. You don't give a fuck about the US doing shady and immoral shit like massacres and spying on your allies, you only care that it got exposed.[/quite]
I don't even care that it got exposed. I care about the NSA leak far more than the Collateral Murder.

Collateral Murder = black eye for America. The country can survive black eyes.
the NSA leak = breaking America's cyber spies eyes, ears and arms for years. This is much more costly.

Seriously, no nation should be allied with you. Nobody can trust you.

@Skroe in summary: "Murder and betrayal of our allies = whatever! Exposing those things = The real crime!"

Then go crawl in bed with Russia, lol.

Spoilers: you won't. You're basically an old man yelling at a cloud.

You're a sociopath.

You're a bullshit artist.

It's not, I just uphold my believe in the Prime Directive.

Star Trek is fiction and nobody cares.

Dunno, semantics are important.

You don't get to arbitrarily redefine things because you disagree.


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I am merely adhering to the Prime Directive. And as a German, I indeed agree with Candance Owens. As long as we stayed within our borders what we did was our business alone. I of course morally object to pretty much everything that Hitler did.

Star Trek is fiction and nobody cares.

And even within Star Trek they didn't obey the Prime Directive. It was a bunch of baloney.

See: Ambassador Spock, aka Federation agent within neighboring Romulan superpower seeking to undermine the government.
See: Section 31, owning the head of Romulan intelligence.
See: Captain Picard helping facilitate the selection of a Klingon Chancellor.
See: Captain Sisko infiltrating the Klingon Empire in disguise to change Klingon foreign policy.
See: The Federation helping defend the interim Cardassian government after the fall of Central Command


Prime Directive my ass....

And Candice Owens is a fucking internet troll. Lol. She's Anne Coulter, 2019 edition.

[Independent voter]

So you would call a black person you thought was a traitor a n*gger after all? Because why would you care?

Exposing war crimes is not treason btw. Your government are the traitors to your people.

NATO deaths in Afghanistan

USA: 2,313*
UK: 456
Canada: 157*
France: 88
Germany: 57

Bradly Manning and Assange got 57 of your countrymen killed. Doesn't that bother you Elba?