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  1. #101
    Immortal ArgusTheUnmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    If you're looking for symbols, just swap the blue here for red and you'll end up with the perfect representation of Thrall's, Baine's and Saurfang's Horde:
    Except, their Horde was always the regular Horde symbol, so therefore this doesn't make sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    What the fuck does the "Horde" even mean or stand for anyways? Nothing logically binds this group of races together other than being Anti-Alliance. They are a flimsy excuse of a faction. A joke. They should rebrand themselves as "Anti- Alliance" cuz that's all they got going for them. Without that they are nothing. The Alliance is their sole motivation in anything. And therefore they will always be used as a foil for the Alliance and nothing else. Because they have nothing else.
    "The Horde, a faction led by off-worlders and composed of outsiders has survived these obstacles by bonding together, fighting as family, comrades, or even uneasy allies."

    Um...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    Whaaaaaaaaaaat?! Dude, from where do you have this info on Thrall?! None of the books or wiki mention such things, even remotely.

    Thrall is a character who has been nurtured with pain and misery, hence him being enslaved as an infant. He grew up in chains and cages, and was constantly forced into ring fights. He knows this kind of suffering very well, and that is why he made the new Horde his family, and began to care for them after he was freed from Blackmoore. He was also the first orc shaman with whom the elements communed and lend their powers. Prior to Thrall the elements did not answer the calls of orcs due to their strong corruption by fel. That was a clear sign of true heart and leadership potential. He did not punish his people by creating Orgrimar in Durotar - he simply found them a place to be free on Azeroth (a world they are not originally from). He has always tried to solve all conflicts with honor and dimplomacy. As I mentioned sooner, he was even one step away from achieving true peace with the alliance at his meeting with Varian. They even discussed different tradables they could exchange, like exotic hides from orc side, and wood materials from human side. So even Varian saw that he was a true leader with whom he could potentially make peace. And as for the tribes you mention he never united, they are Draenor material, which means they date back since before Thrall was even born.
    Your view of Thrall is the intended one, but it's not the one we're actually shown in many materials. Blizzard is relying on what you state above even though that's not what they actually wrote in many instances.

    The bit about racial guilt and Durotar being chosen deliberately for its inhospitability, that it was pushed to its very limit and reliant on night elven handouts is in the Shattering and admitted by Thrall. The constant famines are alluded to in Heart of War and in Glory, relative to the richness of the lands around them. These Wrath-Cata era stories. In the Shattering, as @Hubbl3 says, Thrall says the above in plain text and other orcs note it as well. Thrall similarly still had slavery as an active thing in the Horde, Varian's whole backstory and reason for disliking the Horde stems not only from the sack of Stormwind but also because he was a gladiatorial slave in Thrall's Horde, with said slaver, Rehgar being one of Thrall's main advisors.

    Nor did Thrall successfully impose his view of what the orcs should be either on them or on the Horde at large. While the orcs had a high opinion of Thrall as a person, they were disillusioned with the results of his leadership - Shattering attests to this as does Wrath and it's why Garrosh was chosen - his strong personal popularity. When it comes to the Horde at large, Thrall had the Forsaken and blood elves as a bolt-on. This was the correct way the faction should work - orcs as a focus, the Eastern Horde as its own entity, but it also meant that he had a vastly more amoral group he had no influence on up until the Wrathgate. Varian also declared war on this ground as well, having seen the experiments the Forsaken were doing.

    Thrall failed on virtually all levels as an actual statesman, though not as a visionary and the way it went with Varian was no different. Varian was the one to declare war and he'd already attacked the Forsaken fleet immediately prior in Howling Fjord. The peace summit was not going to result in a success and Varian was also the one to nab Honor's Stand in the Barrens well before Garrosh was even Warchief. Garrosh's war was one of survival and necessity because his people were incapable of surviving after the Shattering and not only were they already at war with the Alliance, but the night elves had cut all trade with them, which by Thrall's admission would result in the orcs' starvation.

    These all make Thrall a very interesting character, but basing him as the end line of what the Horde should be is a grievous mistake and will only fuck this faction further beyond repair. Blizzard had a chance to avoid all this by having Saurfang pull a Doomhammer and off Sylvanas then be forced to stay in a war with an Alliance that was closer to its Vanilla to Cataclysm-era version, but it didn't. To shove everything the Horde has been for ten years and then six years prior to WC3 before that into the bin, while at the same time shuffling all of Thrall's personal responsibility for all that's happened to be ignored solely so we can pretend that it's 2002 and it's WC3 again despite the orcs and the extended Horde having changed heavily since then is the biggest narrative copout that they can do. Hence why it's virtually guaranteed.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-04-22 at 04:09 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    What the fuck does the "Horde" even mean or stand for anyways? Nothing logically binds this group of races together other than being Anti-Alliance. They are a flimsy excuse of a faction. A joke. They should rebrand themselves as "Anti- Alliance" cuz that's all they got going for them. Without that they are nothing. The Alliance is their sole motivation in anything. And therefore they will always be used as a foil for the Alliance and nothing else. Because they have nothing else.
    That's one of the reasons that I don't want the Horde to descend into warmongering, because really the Alliance is such a shit villain. 3/4s of them were total goody two-shoes even before BfA made literally everyone but Tyrande and Jaina (half the time) into Anduin groupies. They barely have a bone of malice or even contemptuous self-righteousness in their body. I could definitely see Yrel's Lightbound as compelling villains, but the Alliance? I don't give a shit about them, they're more boring than a pack of Quilboars. Identifying myself in opposition to them sounds about as pointless as identifying myself as being against a box of chocolates.

    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That's one of the reasons that I don't want the Horde to descend into warmongering, because really the Alliance is such a shit villain. 3/4s of them were total goody two-shoes even before BfA made literally everyone but Tyrande and Jaina (half the time) into Anduin groupies. They barely have a bone of malice or even contemptuous self-righteousness in their body. I could definitely see Yrel's Lightbound as compelling villains, but the Alliance? I don't give a shit about them, they're more boring than a pack of Quilboars. Identifying myself in opposition to them sounds about as pointless as identifying myself as being against a box of chocolates.

    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.
    That does make the Horde's sole focus in life being Anti-Alliance that much worse. Making the Alliance do more shady and aggressive actions is really the only remedy. This situation could be fixed simply by having the Alliance attack first, hit hard and cause some real damage. Think of Stormheim Genn. Of course back then you had tons of Horde that wanted him dead after that. You didn't really see Horde praising Genn as a credible antagonist, more often you saw Horde crying for Genn's death. The zealotry seen in the Lightbound should be present in the Lightforged. The Scarlet Crusade is also something that should have been fused with the Alliance. They always were fairly popular with Alliance players. But the writers seriously water them down to "Captain America" faction. Fixing the story is as simple as letting the Alliance instigate and the Horde retaliate.

    Sadly they clipped Genn nuts. I still like Shaw and Umbric. Shaw isn't some mary sue. He often fails. But his tactics are sound and dirty like arming blood trolls. And Umbric because he's hilarious in his cruelty. He feels bad for Goblin workers so he throws them into the Void. But his use of Void necromancy to inflict psychological damage on the Zandalari was nice.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2019-04-22 at 06:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how they can't post as much because they keep getting banned, I'd say if anyone's spazzing out, it'd be them.
    Quote Originally Posted by sillag View Post
    im not saying all blood elf fans are weird edgelord neo-nazis

    but all weird edgelord neo-nazis in wow are blood elf rpers

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.
    That's why I always say Orgrim-like attitude's the best fit for Horde's Warchief. They could've taken a hint from how many people positively reacted to Stonetalon Garrosh, even though he was basically a product of miscommunication on writer's part.

    Still, when we're talking about faction war, even a Warchief like that could do squat and would most likely look like a lunatic if there's virtually nothing to hook onto Alliance's side. I feel like both factions need their Anduins and Sylvanases, non caricature versions and in non leading positions that is, for this narrative to function properly.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You still have the Warsong clan active. And the Kor'kron is more a unit that is slowly being flushed out of unwanted blood.
    What is your evidence here?
    Twas brillig

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Have you even looked at the 8.2 PTR datamining?
    Why would I do that? They could replace the Sunreaver with anyone and tell us they were just fillers. If you have any canon arguments I'd like to hear them.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    That's why I always say Orgrim-like attitude's the best fit for Horde's Warchief. They could've taken a hint from how many people positively reacted to Stonetalon Garrosh, even though he was basically a product of miscommunication on writer's part.

    Still, when we're talking about faction war, even a Warchief like that could do squat and would most likely look like a lunatic if there's virtually nothing to hook onto Alliance's side. I feel like both factions need their Anduins and Sylvanases, non caricature versions and in non leading positions that is, for this narrative to function properly.
    I do feel that Sylvanas-tier characters should be restricted to the Horde (or to neither faction at all, to be honest, considering how boring and eeeevil they made her in BfA). Stormheim!Genn is a perfect antagonist for the Horde, he has his reasons for hating us which makes him more interesting, but doesn't change the fact that he wants us dead. Make Anduin more inclined to aggressive action in order to prove his place as High King. Make the Lightforged hate the unbelievers who reject/co-opt the Light, the Forsaken at least have plenty of reasons to hate them all back when a Paladin can disintegrate one of their own with a single slash of their holy blade. So on and so forth.

    The Alliance doesn't even need to have villainous characters, it just needs to have characters that aren't shining paragons of pure morality at all times and who actually do something. Shaw is a good example and probably the best character of the entire war arc, but he's one guy who doesn't influence Alliance policies in a significant way.

  9. #109
    Dreadlord Highelf's Avatar
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    The horde has never made sense. Ever. Half of the races don't belong, nor have they ever belonged. They're weak willed, proven over and over again. They suck at picking leaders. They destroy and burn. They get saved over and over again.

  10. #110
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    What is your evidence here?
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  11. #111
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
    They definately do feel flushed down the toilet.

  12. #112
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    They definately do feel flushed down the toilet.
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why would I do that? They could replace the Sunreaver with anyone and tell us they were just fillers. If you have any canon arguments I'd like to hear them.
    Nevermind then. Sorry for wasting my time. I presumed we were discussing the content on the 8.2 PTR.
    Last edited by Aeula; 2019-04-22 at 07:30 PM.

  14. #114
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
    Outside of whole "Elite warriors" thing.

  15. #115
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Outside of whole "Elite warriors" thing.
    But that felt watered out, for we, the players, were elite warriors too at a point. The Kor'kron just ended up being something they needed to phase out, many of them are still by player's mind, connected to Garrosh.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
    Have we seen any Horde warsong or KorKron since MoP?

    I think the closest w had was a troop group in legion
    Twas brillig

  17. #117
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Have we seen any Horde warsong or KorKron since MoP?

    I think the closest w had was a troop group in legion
    Again, pretty sure Kor'kron is just flushed out. As for Warsong, it is a damn clan, and now we have two versions. Considering one of the orc's greatest heroes were Warsong, I'm sure we didn't ban Warsong, and thus, even though no banners, still have Warsong members of both MU and AU.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  18. #118
    You're forgetting the clans are a heritage thing for maghar, not something they still had active
    Twas brillig

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Firstly, the "keep the Alliance out of it" angle is completely unreasonable and impossible. SI:7 spies had a piece of azerite in Anduin's hand around the same time that Sylvanas was told about the stuff. They knew the Horde had Derek's body. Why do you think Jaina flipped out when she saw him, because she already had an idea half formed of what they could possibly do with him, and was right.

    Yeah, freeing Derek helps the Alliance, but that's not the point. The point was Baine saw Sylvanas about to do something so sick and twisted that it violates the core principle that her own people, the Forsaken, hold dear: free will. Sylvanas saying she was going to do this was what the Culling of Stratholme was to Jaina. It showed them the point where loyalty to their superior reached its limit and they realized they couldn't follow them anymore.

    Your whole argument pretty much boils down to "Don't create any lore about Alliance and Horde interacting peacefully, because all that means is Horde submitting to Alliance." And that is stupid.
    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.



    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.
    At least Lilian Voss thinks different about this:

    ... Seeing how Sylvanas had been planning to deprive Derek of his free will, Lilian wondered if Sylvanas took any pride in what should have been the distinction between the Forsaken and Scourge.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lilian_Voss
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2019-04-22 at 11:45 PM.

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