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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    What the fuck does the "Horde" even mean or stand for anyways? Nothing logically binds this group of races together other than being Anti-Alliance. They are a flimsy excuse of a faction. A joke. They should rebrand themselves as "Anti- Alliance" cuz that's all they got going for them. Without that they are nothing. The Alliance is their sole motivation in anything. And therefore they will always be used as a foil for the Alliance and nothing else. Because they have nothing else.
    That's one of the reasons that I don't want the Horde to descend into warmongering, because really the Alliance is such a shit villain. 3/4s of them were total goody two-shoes even before BfA made literally everyone but Tyrande and Jaina (half the time) into Anduin groupies. They barely have a bone of malice or even contemptuous self-righteousness in their body. I could definitely see Yrel's Lightbound as compelling villains, but the Alliance? I don't give a shit about them, they're more boring than a pack of Quilboars. Identifying myself in opposition to them sounds about as pointless as identifying myself as being against a box of chocolates.

    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That's one of the reasons that I don't want the Horde to descend into warmongering, because really the Alliance is such a shit villain. 3/4s of them were total goody two-shoes even before BfA made literally everyone but Tyrande and Jaina (half the time) into Anduin groupies. They barely have a bone of malice or even contemptuous self-righteousness in their body. I could definitely see Yrel's Lightbound as compelling villains, but the Alliance? I don't give a shit about them, they're more boring than a pack of Quilboars. Identifying myself in opposition to them sounds about as pointless as identifying myself as being against a box of chocolates.

    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.
    That does make the Horde's sole focus in life being Anti-Alliance that much worse. Making the Alliance do more shady and aggressive actions is really the only remedy. This situation could be fixed simply by having the Alliance attack first, hit hard and cause some real damage. Think of Stormheim Genn. Of course back then you had tons of Horde that wanted him dead after that. You didn't really see Horde praising Genn as a credible antagonist, more often you saw Horde crying for Genn's death. The zealotry seen in the Lightbound should be present in the Lightforged. The Scarlet Crusade is also something that should have been fused with the Alliance. They always were fairly popular with Alliance players. But the writers seriously water them down to "Captain America" faction. Fixing the story is as simple as letting the Alliance instigate and the Horde retaliate.

    Sadly they clipped Genn nuts. I still like Shaw and Umbric. Shaw isn't some mary sue. He often fails. But his tactics are sound and dirty like arming blood trolls. And Umbric because he's hilarious in his cruelty. He feels bad for Goblin workers so he throws them into the Void. But his use of Void necromancy to inflict psychological damage on the Zandalari was nice.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2019-04-22 at 06:00 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    "Let's live in the desert and not do shit, but honorably" isn't too much of an identity either, granted, but Blizzard has shown that they can make a political entity more complex than a single concept, even recently with the Zandalari. I don't see why the Horde should have to be reduced to either genocidal warmongers who have a totally unreasonable Alliance hateboner, or peace-loving honorable traitors who have an unreasonable fondness for the Alliance. Alas, that is the dichotomy presented by the narrative.
    That's why I always say Orgrim-like attitude's the best fit for Horde's Warchief. They could've taken a hint from how many people positively reacted to Stonetalon Garrosh, even though he was basically a product of miscommunication on writer's part.

    Still, when we're talking about faction war, even a Warchief like that could do squat and would most likely look like a lunatic if there's virtually nothing to hook onto Alliance's side. I feel like both factions need their Anduins and Sylvanases, non caricature versions and in non leading positions that is, for this narrative to function properly.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You still have the Warsong clan active. And the Kor'kron is more a unit that is slowly being flushed out of unwanted blood.
    What is your evidence here?
    Twas brillig

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Have you even looked at the 8.2 PTR datamining?
    Why would I do that? They could replace the Sunreaver with anyone and tell us they were just fillers. If you have any canon arguments I'd like to hear them.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    That's why I always say Orgrim-like attitude's the best fit for Horde's Warchief. They could've taken a hint from how many people positively reacted to Stonetalon Garrosh, even though he was basically a product of miscommunication on writer's part.

    Still, when we're talking about faction war, even a Warchief like that could do squat and would most likely look like a lunatic if there's virtually nothing to hook onto Alliance's side. I feel like both factions need their Anduins and Sylvanases, non caricature versions and in non leading positions that is, for this narrative to function properly.
    I do feel that Sylvanas-tier characters should be restricted to the Horde (or to neither faction at all, to be honest, considering how boring and eeeevil they made her in BfA). Stormheim!Genn is a perfect antagonist for the Horde, he has his reasons for hating us which makes him more interesting, but doesn't change the fact that he wants us dead. Make Anduin more inclined to aggressive action in order to prove his place as High King. Make the Lightforged hate the unbelievers who reject/co-opt the Light, the Forsaken at least have plenty of reasons to hate them all back when a Paladin can disintegrate one of their own with a single slash of their holy blade. So on and so forth.

    The Alliance doesn't even need to have villainous characters, it just needs to have characters that aren't shining paragons of pure morality at all times and who actually do something. Shaw is a good example and probably the best character of the entire war arc, but he's one guy who doesn't influence Alliance policies in a significant way.

  7. #107
    Epic! Highelf's Avatar
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    The horde has never made sense. Ever. Half of the races don't belong, nor have they ever belonged. They're weak willed, proven over and over again. They suck at picking leaders. They destroy and burn. They get saved over and over again.

  8. #108
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    What is your evidence here?
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
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  9. #109
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
    They definately do feel flushed down the toilet.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    They definately do feel flushed down the toilet.
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
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  11. #111
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why would I do that? They could replace the Sunreaver with anyone and tell us they were just fillers. If you have any canon arguments I'd like to hear them.
    Nevermind then. Sorry for wasting my time. I presumed we were discussing the content on the 8.2 PTR.
    Last edited by Aeula; 2019-04-22 at 07:30 PM.

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
    Outside of whole "Elite warriors" thing.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Outside of whole "Elite warriors" thing.
    But that felt watered out, for we, the players, were elite warriors too at a point. The Kor'kron just ended up being something they needed to phase out, many of them are still by player's mind, connected to Garrosh.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Evidence or what? That one of the hundreds of greenskin or brownskin orcs can't be Warsong actively? or that Kor'kron feels like it'll finally be flushed out as it should?
    Have we seen any Horde warsong or KorKron since MoP?

    I think the closest w had was a troop group in legion
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Have we seen any Horde warsong or KorKron since MoP?

    I think the closest w had was a troop group in legion
    Again, pretty sure Kor'kron is just flushed out. As for Warsong, it is a damn clan, and now we have two versions. Considering one of the orc's greatest heroes were Warsong, I'm sure we didn't ban Warsong, and thus, even though no banners, still have Warsong members of both MU and AU.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  16. #116
    You're forgetting the clans are a heritage thing for maghar, not something they still had active
    Twas brillig

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Besiddes, the Kor'kron never really felt like a brad of the Horde. They were more visable when they were the bullies/baddies.
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Firstly, the "keep the Alliance out of it" angle is completely unreasonable and impossible. SI:7 spies had a piece of azerite in Anduin's hand around the same time that Sylvanas was told about the stuff. They knew the Horde had Derek's body. Why do you think Jaina flipped out when she saw him, because she already had an idea half formed of what they could possibly do with him, and was right.

    Yeah, freeing Derek helps the Alliance, but that's not the point. The point was Baine saw Sylvanas about to do something so sick and twisted that it violates the core principle that her own people, the Forsaken, hold dear: free will. Sylvanas saying she was going to do this was what the Culling of Stratholme was to Jaina. It showed them the point where loyalty to their superior reached its limit and they realized they couldn't follow them anymore.

    Your whole argument pretty much boils down to "Don't create any lore about Alliance and Horde interacting peacefully, because all that means is Horde submitting to Alliance." And that is stupid.
    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.



    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.
    At least Lilian Voss thinks different about this:

    ... Seeing how Sylvanas had been planning to deprive Derek of his free will, Lilian wondered if Sylvanas took any pride in what should have been the distinction between the Forsaken and Scourge.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lilian_Voss
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2019-04-22 at 11:45 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The bit about racial guilt and Durotar being chosen deliberately for its inhospitability, that it was pushed to its very limit and reliant on night elven handouts is in the Shattering and admitted by Thrall. The constant famines are alluded to in Heart of War and in Glory, relative to the richness of the lands around them. These Wrath-Cata era stories. In the Shattering, as @Hubbl3 says, Thrall says the above in plain text and other orcs note it as well.
    Do you see the great irony in idolizing Thrall, who laid down the framework for all future wars that the Orcs would have to wage if they wished to survive. His penitence and his desire to spread his penitence upon all Orcs for the sins of their fathers fundamentally created a power keg. The Orcs, the main demography of the Horde simply lack fertile lands to establish the agriculture and husbandry required to feed themselves. Therefore they are trapped by Thrall himself, by his racial guilt and the obsessive need to atone. It is one of the reasons why I am sympathetic to Garrosh, he fundamentally simply followed the only path Thrall left open; wage war upon the Night Elves to gain fertile lands, clean water and other natural resources.

  20. #120
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Well done, now we know you never played Horde.
    Could've sworn I've played Horde for the majority of the past 14 years. And I still stick to it, Kor'kron, unlike Warsong, never felt like a brand of the Horde. Of course they were a group within the Horde but didn't call out as much as lets say, the actual pieces of the Horde which were the brands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gann Stonespire View Post
    Thats false, Derek was raised as a weapon, not a Forsaken and the forsaken have openly raised people as weapons dozens and dozens of time, look at the abominations for example.

    Baine has no knowledge or love of the Horde's cultures, he breaks oaths all the time and has openly betrayed the Horde for the Alliance in the past.
    Well, Sylvanas has knowledge of the Horde's cultures, and still doesn't care or hold any love for it. At least Baine is attempting to salvage what can be done before it all rots away.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

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