Soon the Horde won't have much left... (Horde Branding Problem)

[Mehrunes]

If 8.2 remains unchanged then the Horde is basically dead as far as I'm concerned.

The only hope for the faction at this point is to have all the leaders killed off. They're the ones dragging the Horde down,

The entire Horde cast needs to be rebuilt from the ground up without the baggage and Alliance sympathies present in 90% of the current Horde leadership.

Otherwise what's the point? Why play the fake Alliance when you can go play the real one and be closer to the boy king instead of his distant vassal?

Good luck with swapping the cast. Especially for the Orcs. Blizzard only introduces new Orc characters to kill them off either to hype the grizzled veterans up some more or to show how misguided the race is without Thrall's guidance.

[Skytotem]

If you're looking for symbols, just swap the blue here for red and you'll end up with the perfect representation of Thrall's, Baine's and Saurfang's Horde:

It shouldn't be though, there should be plenty of room between "Genocidally stupid-evil and ruthless to the point where it's not pragmatic, it's just lazy antagonism" and "Best buds with the alliance 5ever!"

We should ABSOLUTELY be able to have a Horde that is both honorable and pragmatic. Honor exists in part BECAUSE of pragmatism.

[Mehrunes]

It shouldn't be though, there should be plenty of room between "Genocidally stupid-evil and ruthless to the point where it's not pragmatic, it's just lazy antagonism" and "Best buds with the alliance 5ever!"

We should ABSOLUTELY be able to have a Horde that is both honorable and pragmatic. Honor exists in part BECAUSE of pragmatism.

That's some heavy heresy you're engaging in here.

[Aeula]

Good luck with swapping the cast. Especially for the Orcs. Blizzard only introduces new Orc characters to kill them off either to hype the grizzled veterans up some more or to show how misguided the race is without Thrall's guidance.

If we're given a 'break' expansion where the old world is revamped again then it'd be the perfect time to create and develop new potential leaders and find proper racial identities within the Horde.
The chaos of an interregnum is the perfect opportunity to reshape the Horde into something coherent and unique.

WoW is way too character driven for an open world game anyway.

And if the Alliance is given a rethink and power downgrade too then maybe these world ending threats would actually feel threatening and there'd be less plotholes everywhere.

[MeTaL GuArD]

If 8.2 remains unchanged then the Horde is basically dead as far as I'm concerned.

The only hope for the faction at this point is to have all the leaders killed off. They're the ones dragging the Horde down,

The entire Horde cast needs to be rebuilt from the ground up without the baggage and Alliance sympathies present in 90% of the current Horde leadership.

Otherwise what's the point? Why play the fake Alliance when you can go play the real one and be closer to the boy king instead of his distant vassal?

They'd have to retcon a fuckton of the Alliance's available power before they can make a truly hostile, opposing Horde. Just having the Lightforged and their space tech on their side alone pushes the power balance in their favor, and right now they have the Kul Tiran navy mostly intact, while the Zandalari fleet had been decimated, and the Horde was already outmatched in that department before the allied races were involved. Then there are the Gnomes, whose tech is generally a lot more reliable than the Goblins, where "how much it explodes" is part of a checklist on practically everything they make. It is more than likely that the Mechagnomes and their cybertech is going to go to the Alliance as well, so there's that potential advantage too. There's also an abundance of superpowered leaders on the Alliance, like Velen, Jaina, Tyrande and Malfurion(who are being held back by the writers because otherwise they wouldn't be able to use them for anything without sending another demigod against either of them), Turalyon and Alleria. The most the Horde have in that respect is basically just Sylvanas + Nathanos, Saurfang, potentially Talanji and maybe Thalyssra, and while strong in their own right, none of them are nearly on the same level(maybe the forsaken duo, because of Plot Armor mostly).

[Niwes]

It will be interesting to observe how Blizz intends to revive the Horde faction imagery, symbolism and fundamentally pride. Of course, it could very well mean that they have no plans for such a thing and we will be forever stuck in limbo of hollowness.

yep. i believe in limbo for a good amount of time. after that (when they finally realized in 2021 that this is a problem and costs them players/subs) they will fix it with their well known tools:

pull out some totally weird shit explanation for all stuff embedded in bad writing. fixed.

after that: rinse and repeat.

its so crazy how money could change a company of some tough guys, creatives and ppl like metzen, that once owned everything in quality, lore and whatelse, come down to that shitfest $$$ bill ya company. damned, money seems a hard fucked up game changer.

[Mehrunes]

1. Wow, just because Golden miss-used the term "toxic masculinity" does not mean the term itself is a useless meme. It's a valid sociological term used to discuss how men can be pressured to engage in overly aggressive, emotionally repressive behavior. What are you people, rabid 4Chan right wingers?

Except Golden used the term as it's typically used. Trying to brush it under the carpet in order to hide how nonsensical the term is isn't going to work because no one died and made you king of toxic masculinity to give you such power over it. And it's a gender studies term. Now, gender studies could be viewed as subset of sociology, but it's a clear distinction. Later you mention how it appears in peer reviewed research. The thing is, peer reviewing in gender studies isn't worth nearly as much as in other fields of study. There have been outright troll "research" papers submitted to the journals proper for the field and as long as they contained the typical gender studies buzzwords they passed without issue.

And to call it a valid term even in context of gender studies is just false. The term is explicitly redundant. It covers nothing more than gender roles and gender roles, including the ones that are either straightly negative or those that have some negative aspects had been a topic of discussion long before some gender studies genius brainfarted toxic masculinity into existence. The term is nothing more than the same kind of a worthless buzzword as manspreading or mansplaining, where things that apply to not just men like negative gender roles or taking too much space on public transport are treated as inherently worse when they relate to men and as such "require" a term outright mentioning the male aspect. Golden using an idiotic term in an idiotic manner is only par for the course.

And not only is your ending remark here hypocritical and ironic as @Boo Radley already explained, but before you project that nonsense on me, I'm social democrat.

2. WoW's lore itself is pretty messed up beyond repair. (massive retcons are needed imho) But the Horde's problem is not "Becoming a red Alliance" as brainless tribalists moan, it's repeatedly indulging in morally bankrupt instances of evil (Bombing Theramore, Burning Teldrassil) for asinine and contrived reasons and then trying to claw back into its once morally positive status. The question of "Is the Horde evil?" was answered in Warcraft 3, with a resounding "No." Yet Blizz feels compelled to ask this tired question again and again further undermining the original answer and the entire basis of the faction.

Asking for retcons to fix lore ruined by retcons makes zero sense. On top of that, Thrall's Horde isn't exactly some golden standard. It's explicitly the exception to the rule. And what does red Alliance have to do with "brainless tribalism"? The champions against the current way of things are Baine, who betrayed the Horde to the Alliance during each war he served in a leader position and Saurfang, who outright hoped the High King of the Alliance would fix the Horde. Gee, why would Alliance sycophants within the Horde be called red Alliance. 'Tis a mystery.

Also, what exactly is morally bankrupt in bombing Theramore? Theramore was not only the biggest bastion of Alliance in central Kalimdor, giving the Alliance a base of operation from which they could easily attack two Horde capitals, but also was the Alliance member that personally led the Alliance charge in that very same area throughout Cataclysm. It was as valid a target as targets go and the only thing illogical about it is that it took Garrosh so long to deal with it. And since the civilians fled before the bombing, it's as clean an attack as it goes.

At no point have you cited why the Horde is better as a generic bad guy faction besides some tribalist drivel about emulating the Alliance, as if any speck of goodness immediately makes the Horde a carbon copy of the other faction. Regarding the lack of resources in Durotar, that nonsense was cooked up in Cataclysm to further an asinine plot. In Warcraft 3 AND Vanilla, the Horde's resource problem was no where near the problem it was latter made out to be, nor was it ever alluded to that Thrall deliberately marooned his people in a desolate land to "punish" them. It was noted that the flora and fauna of the area were rugged and harsh, but not depleted or lacking.

But Durotar has always been a desert. If you assumed the Horde wouldn't have a resource shortage due to that fact you didn't think this through enough. And no one said that any speck of goodness makes the Horde a carbon copy of the Alliance. The leaders of the muh honor movement in the Horde being Alliance sycophants makes the Horde they try to push the red Alliance. Vol'jin's Horde somehow was not called that. Try to figure out the why here.

The Horde should be shamanistic, tribal, honor bound, reverent of elements and ancestors. The Alliance should be technological, reverent of faith and duty, scholarly, and hierarchical. In the ideal World of Warcraft, Night Elves along with Draenei would have been in a separate faction with themes of natural preservation, mysticism, and truly ancient culture.

For someone as against the Horde whose leaders don't suck up to Anduin on the grounds of it not being generic, you are surprisingly in favor of generic faction matchups here. Especially for the Alliance.

Ideally, in a faction war scenario, both sides would have ample reason to believe themselves to be the rightful combatant and the other to be the wrongful one. That is not possible when one faction's opening salvo is to mass murder civilians and children on the basis of "Well, maybe sometime in the future we'll be at war again, might as well start it now ourselves!" That, along with the other laughably cartoonishly evil actions the Horde has undertaken, along with the pathetic and ridiculous Lawful Stupid responses of the Alliance, has ensured BFA to be one of the worst expansions in this game's history.

Except that's not the full basis for the current faction war. The basis is also that the Alliance can't stop itself in its constant aggression against the Horde and that it has already began. And that's precisely why the peace with them is worthless. Alliance aggression in Stormheim is precisely what convinced Saurfang for the war. Because when Alliance is so unhinged in their aggression that they are going to attack the Horde out of the blue during the middle of Satan apocalypse, they can never truly coexist with the Horde. Because it's a rabid animal as far as its attitude towards the Horde goes. And rabid animals are put down, not coddled. So it's very easy to believe the Horde to be a rightful combatant, because the opening salvo didn't come from them, it came from the blue team.

If we're given a 'break' expansion where the old world is revamped again then it'd be the perfect time to create and develop new potential leaders and find proper racial identities within the Horde.
The chaos of an interregnum is the perfect opportunity to reshape the Horde into something coherent and unique.

We'll only end up with Kal'el, son of Go'el acting as the pillar of Horde's morality anyway. Thrall's spirit will live on, anyone straying away from the teachings of the Orc raised by humans will be eventually killed because not following human teachings "is not what the Horde is about".

[Skytotem]

Please don't derail folks, this is about the Horde losing notable people and groups.

[Nirn]

yep. i believe in limbo for a good amount of time. after that (when they finally realized in 2021 that this is a problem and costs them players/subs) they will fix it with their well known tools:

pull out some totally weird shit explanation for all stuff embedded in bad writing. fixed.

after that: rinse and repeat.

its so crazy how money could change a company of some tough guys, creatives and ppl like metzen, that once owned everything in quality, lore and whatelse, come down to that shitfest $$$ bill ya company. damned, money seems a hard fucked up game changer.

Well, that is how the corporate video gaming industry works these days. I have a small suspicion that they are laughing at their audience behind closed doors.

[Skytotem]

yep. i believe in limbo for a good amount of time. after that (when they finally realized in 2021 that this is a problem and costs them players/subs) they will fix it with their well known tools:

pull out some totally weird shit explanation for all stuff embedded in bad writing. fixed.

after that: rinse and repeat.

its so crazy how money could change a company of some tough guys, creatives and ppl like metzen, that once owned everything in quality, lore and whatelse, come down to that shitfest $$$ bill ya company. damned, money seems a hard fucked up game changer.

Oh c'mon, Metzen wasn't as bad but let's not pretend he was a GREAT writer, Metzen was an idea man, a big picture concept type. Wow's never had GREAT writing, but before it wasn't as big so the inconsistencies weren't as bad over time.

The problem is partly that everything's piling up, so the flip-flops, and changes in characterization are worse.


If Cata-MoP-Wod hadn't ALREADY done this story it'd be much more palatable.

[Zandalariprelate]

If 8.2 remains unchanged then the Horde is basically dead as far as I'm concerned.

The only hope for the faction at this point is to have all the leaders killed off. They're the ones dragging the Horde down,

The entire Horde cast needs to be rebuilt from the ground up without the baggage and Alliance sympathies present in 90% of the current Horde leadership.

Otherwise what's the point? Why play the fake Alliance when you can go play the real one and be closer to the boy king instead of his distant vassal?

It won't matter if we keep the same writers, they will create anothers characters to be the spiritual heir of these deceased characters or even more alliance bootlicker.

If we are gonna do a soft reboot, then we must get rid of Golden and Afrasiabi or we everything will repeat itself, did you not learn that with exarch Garrosh?

[Jastall]

It shouldn't be though, there should be plenty of room between "Genocidally stupid-evil and ruthless to the point where it's not pragmatic, it's just lazy antagonism" and "Best buds with the alliance 5ever!"

We should ABSOLUTELY be able to have a Horde that is both honorable and pragmatic. Honor exists in part BECAUSE of pragmatism.

That's why I vastly prefer the Zandalari to either faction myself, given that they enter the sweet spot between pragmatism and honor, which is rooted in deep spiritualism rather than some ad-hoc personal values system that changes depending on the writer. That should tell you every about how big of a joke this Faction Pridetm expansion is.

The last pragmatic Horde leader was Lor'themar. But even for my tastes (read: fuck this stupid-ass war), he's too buddy-buddy with the Alliance in 8.2.

[Super Dickmann]

The last pragmatic Horde leader was Lor'themar. But even for my tastes (read: fuck this stupid-ass war), he's too buddy-buddy with the Alliance in 8.2.

You know this faction deserves scorched earth by how the best part of it is a side-group that didn't even make a loyalty pledge and has only appeared within one expansion.

[Jastall]

You know this faction deserves scorched earth by how the best part of it is a side-group that didn't even make a loyalty pledge and has only appeared within one expansion.

And you wonder why I fucking hate the faction war .

[Shoggoth]

There's enough fresh blood IF Blizzard doesn't keep killing horde leaders; Talanji, Geya, Mayla, Thalyssra. Plus Ji, Rexxar and Lilian who are not new but could be used way more. And that's not counting any future allied races.

[Maljinwo]

The Horde needs to be dissolved at this point.
It's unsalvageable

[Aeula]

It won't matter if we keep the same writers, they will create anothers characters to be the spiritual heir of these deceased characters or even more alliance bootlicker.

If we are gonna do a soft reboot, then we must get rid of Golden and Afrasiabi or we everything will repeat itself, did you not learn that with exarch Garrosh?

Fair point.

I guess the best we can hope for at this point is a hard reboot via classic with a different team of writers. Let Golden and co keep pissing in this sandpit if the higher ups can’t/won’t fire them for whatever reason. There’s not much hope for modern WoW anymore.

[Dagoth Ur]

That's why I vastly prefer the Zandalari to either faction myself, given that they enter the sweet spot between pragmatism and honor, which is rooted in deep spiritualism rather than some ad-hoc personal values system that changes depending on the writer. That should tell you every about how big of a joke this Faction Pridetm expansion is.

At least we're left with that one narrative bubble to enjoy. Ever since pre patch they've just been popping them left and right. Makes you wonder what'll be the Horde's story in next expac (assuming we get one).

[Jastall]

At least we're left with that one narrative bubble to enjoy. Ever since pre patch they've just been popping them left and right. Makes you wonder what'll be the Horde's story in next expac (assuming we get one).

They'll probably put the factions mostly on the shelf after BfA like they did in WoD, both because they, I assume, planned to do so anyway and because the playerbase already displays intense signs of fatigue towards the faction war plotline which is going to get worse before it gets better.

At best I expect the new Warchief (or War Council if Blizzard goes this way or whatnot) to be busy putting the Horde back together and one or two Horde character accompanying us into the next expansion which is highly likely to be Shadowlands-related.

[Super Dickmann]

They'll probably put the factions mostly on the shelf after BfA like they did in WoD, both because they, I assume, planned to do so anyway and because the playerbase already displays intense signs of fatigue towards the faction war plotline which is going to get worse before it gets better.

At best I expect the new Warchief (or War Council if Blizzard goes this way or whatnot) to be busy putting the Horde back together and one or two Horde character accompanying us into the next expansion which is highly likely to be Shadowlands-related.

The Horde will be on the backbench, barring possible appearances by the Zandalari and Calia for the Shadowlands and Green Jesus in a generic hero role. The rest will be Legion 2.0 in terms of focus on Alliance characters and themes under the thin veil of neutrality. Especially since the Horde cast will have been gutted again and our totem carriers and honor afficionados are even more worthless at fighting purple ghosts in space/the underworld than they are in their current capacity.