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  1. #201
    there are some very basic gameplay problems ruining the game and you're talking about the story? .... huh???

    MoP had 10 man raiding, class identity, and dot snapshotting... all of those things were too fun and interesting though, so they removed them. so from that aspect they are nothing alike.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    I don't think you know the definition of "traitor". Sylvanas is the biggest traitor here.

    She is just doing everything for her own plan, be it good or bad, together with her toyboy ofc, without telling her people or consulting her colleagues. Nobody in the horde even knows what the hell she wants to do. If that is not bad leadership, I don't know what is.

    A leader that doesn't even care to explain her plan to the people deserves no respect or loyalty. Every horde member has the right to stab such a stupid leader in the back.

    Removing her from horde asap is the best for everyone, and just let Sylvanas do whatever she wants.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Horde leaders: This bitch is insane. She has dangerous agenda.
    Sylvanas: No, I am not insane. I have great plan for us.
    Horde people: What is your plan?
    Sylvanas: I can't tell you, and I don't want to explain to you. Just trust me, I have good plan.
    Horde: Then what is it?
    Sylvanas: I don't want to tell you. Just trust me and obey your warchief.
    Horde: lol, ok, whatever, fuck off.
    Hilarious. She already said she fights for the survival of the Horde. What is she doing? Destroying Alliance bases and if that is unethical then my friend you don't know how wars are fought. If Saurfang and Baine are unhappy I am sure Alliance will open another wing in Stormwind for them to settle in. Nobody really questions why she does what she does. They are just unhappy and go:"Horde doesn't do stuff like this! QQ" Then start to talk behind her back and plot to rebel without even trying to face their leader about the issues they have. They straight up conspirate just because they don't like Sylvanas for what she represents.

    Sure, she might have hidden agenda and she probably does, because if she doesn't it will be even weaker storytelling on Blizzard's part. They really need to start hiring new and better writers.
    Last edited by Deventh; 2019-04-26 at 02:18 AM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Deventh View Post
    And who might you be referring to? As far as I know all Alliance leaders are still there and have people that can easily fill in their position if they ended up dead or missing. Only Anduin will be hard to replace if he dies as there isn't a suitable leader to take his place. But let's be real here, he will not die because Blizzard loves their golden boi and have him alive in the future comic where he is 80 year old and they already killed one human leader last expansion they will not kill another one for another 6 until Anduin has grandchildren that can replace him.

    Actually scratch that, Jaina can easily replace Anduin too, there you go. Blizzard loves Alliance, man.
    Anduin is a joke of a leader. I'm talking about Tedrassil of course, what do you think? Sylvanas is a crazy genocidal bitch. Ofc she has to die But she won't because the devs all love her.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    That is not what I said and I am not going to translate it for you. We know that Sylvannas is not dying but sure dude, have fun. Enjoy.
    Blizz also said that what happened to Teldrassil would be a surprise twist (Surprise! It’s exactly what you all thought!), don’t get too hung up on what Blizz said a while ago...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deventh View Post
    Killing traitors in your ranks is bad leadership? The more you know. She is probably the most effective Warchief the Horde has ever had whether you hate her or love her you can't deny that. If only her "colleagues" were doing what they were told to do instead of putting a knife in their leader's back. If only.
    Effective, yeah, start a war that isn't necessary (Not with peacenik Anduin leading the Alliance), after a successful campaign burning a major population center out of apparent spite (Galvanizing resistance, turning the area in a resource and manpower sink in the process), blighting another city in a failed trap, seeking out a has-been empire of trolls for its brilliant navy, then losing said navy in one battle, and now messing around with old god stuff, getting what's left of her navy ruined over Nazjatar, so effective, much wow...

    If Sylvanas is the most effective warchief, that's saying a lot about the rest! :P (She has a point about traitors though)

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    I have not been long on these forums but I really got the impression that your main race are Orcs. I can agree with the sentiment about post-Sylvanas future of the Forsaken. Then again, the Forsaken were always built around her as semi-messiah figure.
    I've been an orc fan for longer, but it's been more of on and off thing. I've been far more into orcs when I've been into them, but I've also had periods where I've lost interest, like TBC mostly was for me (and early Wrath admittedly because I didn't use to read quest text much). I was really into them when I was a sprog obsessing over WC2, was still into them for a while in WC3, but WoW itself has been back and forth. I have to shamefully admit I actually played blood elf a lot in TBC for example. That was my gateway into Forsaken.

    Especially at the tail end of WoD, when it became clear we weren't bringing in Iron Horde elements into the Horde as Blizzard alluded to a few times and my impression was that we were stuck with a nonexistent roster, no racial leader and no plot I was likely at my most burnt out on orcs. It and Mists really did basically destroy MU orcs for all time, despite a few glimmers of hope with the book version of Saurfang, Usha and so forth that I've quite enjoyed.

    It helps that my current main is a Forsaken hunter, even if I've finally gotten around to getting my Mag'har up to where his sorry ass can do content.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-04-26 at 08:52 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    What if twist is still about to happen? We didn't think about that, didn't we?
    Considering Blizzard’s writing track-record, this sort of longterm planning and subtlety seems highly unlikely, in this case i’d love to be proven wrong, but i’m not counting on it...

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Blizz also said that what happened to Teldrassil would be a surprise twist (Surprise! It’s exactly what you all thought!), don’t get too hung up on what Blizz said a while ago...

    - - - Updated - - -



    Effective, yeah, start a war that isn't necessary (Not with peacenik Anduin leading the Alliance), after a successful campaign burning a major population center out of apparent spite (Galvanizing resistance, turning the area in a resource and manpower sink in the process), blighting another city in a failed trap, seeking out a has-been empire of trolls for its brilliant navy, then losing said navy in one battle, and now messing around with old god stuff, getting what's left of her navy ruined over Nazjatar, so effective, much wow...

    If Sylvanas is the most effective warchief, that's saying a lot about the rest! :P (She has a point about traitors though)
    Something being a twist or not is different from saying she won't die or be a raid boss. One is subjective the other objective. A twist being easy to see only makes it a bad twist but not false.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    I don't think you know the definition of "traitor". Sylvanas is the biggest traitor here.

    She is just doing everything for her own plan, be it good or bad, together with her toyboy ofc, without telling her people or consulting her colleagues. Nobody in the horde even knows what the hell she wants to do. If that is not bad leadership, I don't know what is.

    A leader that doesn't even care to explain her plan to the people deserves no respect or loyalty. Every horde member has the right to stab such a stupid leader in the back.

    Removing her from horde asap is the best for everyone, and just let Sylvanas do whatever she wants.
    No, it's you who doesn't know what the Horde is, how it's set up and what power structure it uses. The Blood Oath makes it explicitly clear that the Warchief can do pretty much whatever they want and the rest of the Horde must obey regardless. So removing her from the Horde in order to let her do whatever she wants is redundant. And Sylvanas' plan is the Horde's plan as she is the Warchief. It's rather straightforward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Something being a twist or not is different from saying she won't die or be a raid boss. One is subjective the other objective. A twist being easy to see only makes it a bad twist but not false.
    But they didn't say she won't die. They said she won't allow herself to be subjected to asinine trial like Garrosh had. Besides, there's nothing subjective in Blizzard promising a twist and delivering none. And there's no way to contort reality enough to portray Sylvanas burning Teldrassil as a twist. Blizzard simply lied. So even if they said Sylvanas will not die for sure - which they didn't - nothing would have prevented from this being yet another of their lies.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    That is not what I said and I am not going to translate it for you. We know that Sylvannas is not dying but sure dude, have fun. Enjoy.
    Except we don't know that. Blizzard only talked about whether or not she'll be a raid boss or have a trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    No, it's you who doesn't know what the Horde is, how it's set up and what power structure it uses. The Blood Oath makes it explicitly clear that the Warchief can do pretty much whatever they want and the rest of the Horde must obey regardless. So removing her from the Horde in order to let her do whatever she wants is redundant. And Sylvanas' plan is the Horde's plan as she is the Warchief. It's rather straightforward.




    But they didn't say she won't die. They said she won't allow herself to be subjected to asinine trial like Garrosh had. Besides, there's nothing subjective in Blizzard promising a twist and delivering none. And there's no way to contort reality enough to portray Sylvanas burning Teldrassil as a twist. Blizzard simply lied. So even if they said Sylvanas will not die for sure - which they didn't - nothing would have prevented from this being yet another of their lies.




    Except we don't know that. Blizzard only talked about whether or not she'll be a raid boss or have a trial.
    Think they said she won't die by players hands, aka not a raidboss. Which is true, they can still kill her. Yeah, they lied about the twist part, sure... I don't see it like that, but let's say they lied about the twist for the sake of he argument. They didn't lie about what happened. AFAIK they didn't say x won't burn teldrassil, only that we would be surprised who it was. Its not a lie about events occurring, only them being naive about the reception of their story.
    Wildly different things.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I've been an orc fan for longer, but it's been more of on and off thing. I've been far more into orcs when I've been into them, but I've also had periods where I've lost interest, like TBC mostly was for me (and early Wrath admittedly because I didn't use to read quest text much). I was really into them when I was a sprog obsessing over WC2, was still into them for a while in WC3, but WoW itself has been back and forth. I have to shamefully admit I actually played blood elf a lot in TBC for example. That was my gateway into Forsaken.

    Especially at the tail end of WoD, when it became clear we weren't bringing in Iron Horde elements into the Horde as Blizzard alluded to a few times and my impression was that we were stuck with a nonexistent roster, no racial leader and no plot I was likely at my most burnt out on orcs. It and Mists really did basically destroy MU orcs for all time, despite a few glimmers of hope with the book version of Saurfang, Usha and so forth that I've quite enjoyed.

    It helps that my current main is a Forsaken hunter, even if I've finally gotten around to getting my Mag'har up to where his sorry ass can do content.
    I started my journey into Warcraft franchise with WC3, but then I went back and played WC2. Over all these years of playing WoW, I came to conclusion that most people never touched the WC2. I came to really love the Horde in WC2 as a well written faction, something it is not these days. I loved the Cataclysm, as exploration of the Elemental Realms was always my wet dream, so to speak. I was also really satisfied with how written Garrosh was, he had depth and broke Thrall cult of personality. There was a consistent method to how he acted as a Warchief. You can probably guess how I feel about Mists by now. Sylvanas, Saurfang and Baine are leaders the Horde deserves.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Think they said she won't die by players hands, aka not a raidboss. Which is true, they can still kill her. Yeah, they lied about the twist part, sure... I don't see it like that, but let's say they lied about the twist for the sake of he argument. They didn't lie about what happened. AFAIK they didn't say x won't burn teldrassil, only that we would be surprised who it was. Its not a lie about events occurring, only them being naive about the reception of their story.
    Wildly different things.
    If you write a story about murder where someone is found with the murder weapon right next to the body and then hype your story up as being not what it seems only for the murderer to be the person with the murder weapon, you lied, period.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nirn View Post
    I started my journey into Warcraft franchise with WC3, but then I went back and played WC2. Over all these years of playing WoW, I came to conclusion that most people never touched the WC2. I came to really love the Horde in WC2 as a well written faction, something it is not these days. I loved the Cataclysm, as exploration of the Elemental Realms was always my wet dream, so to speak. I was also really satisfied with how written Garrosh was, he had depth and broke Thrall cult of personality. There was a consistent method to how he acted as a Warchief. You can probably guess how I feel about Mists by now. Sylvanas, Saurfang and Baine are leaders the Horde deserves.
    Reaction to Cataclysm was the best example of how most players are clueless about the fact that Warcraft didn't start with Warcraft 3. All the "Deathwing who" threads showed that pretty well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Reaction to Cataclysm was the best example of how most players are clueless about the fact that Warcraft didn't start with Warcraft 3. All the "Deathwing who" threads showed that pretty well.
    Unfortunately, for the overwhelming majority of players, it absolutely did. I also read all the old novels, and even if I have to agree that some were rather poorly written, I think they remain instrumental for complete understanding of the lore.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Sylvanas has lived long enough, since vanilla. And she has been crazy for some time now.

    Ofc Blizzard is going this "I have a grand scheme to save the world, but I can't tell you even though I am the horde warchief. I can only do this secretly alone with my trusted toyboy Nathanos instead of motivate the whole horde" retarded crap.

    Just get over of her and her annoying bf. Hiding everything from your colleagues and killing your own people, It is just bad leadership.
    Yeah. Who else lives since vanilla? Bolvar, Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Magni, most other alliance leaders etc. There is nothing wrong with at least one original Horde leader character staying around.

  14. #214
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Ideal would be not fucking anyone up. Having Forsaken's identity drastically changed to appease Western Horde's values is crappy solution too. Why they think that the only way a faction can work properly is if it's a hive mind is anyone's guess, but I feel like that'd be sacrificing what became Horde's main appeal narrative wise over the years. Horde being a more unstable faction with it's races having looser bonds isn't really a bad thing and is probably when it's at its best.
    I think Blizzard is focusing a lot on the concept of "free will" (and therefore "freedom") as the well known cornerstone of Forsaken society and how that idea is more important than all the warmongering pushed forth by Sylvanas or something. Likewise, I think they're trying to promote the more basic idea of "honor" so that every Horde race could identify with it, and with that I mean the good old idealization of "honor" as "honoring one's word" no matter the cost, which kind of clashes with the extreme, sociopathic pragmatism of Sylvanas, where Forsaken are probably intended to be messed up but with a lingering shred of decency nonetheless (most of them, at least).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Have Baine and Lor'themar even interacted before? Just seems so ooc for Lor'themar to say something like that. Baine's supposed to be that idiot kid who hasn't yet learned about the world and its hardships, not be praised for his naivete by one of the most veteran leaders the Horde has.

    This honestly feels like someone wrote it either in panic or out of spite towards how the story is being received so far.
    I kept telling this for a long time, Blizzard gave Baine the same infamous power Anduin has: the ability to get praise from everyone around no matter what. Be it Vol'jin, Saurfang or Lor'themar, Baine will get unexplained and hilariously out of place praise and be pushed into responsibilities he's not absolutely worthy to shoulder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I think Blizzard is focusing a lot on the concept of "free will" (and therefore "freedom") as the well known cornerstone of Forsaken society and how that idea is more important than all the warmongering pushed forth by Sylvanas or something. Likewise, I think they're trying to promote the more basic idea of "honor" so that every Horde race could identify with it, and with that I mean the good old idealization of "honor" as "honoring one's word" no matter the cost, which kind of clashes with the extreme, sociopathic pragmatism of Sylvanas, where Forsaken are probably intended to be messed up but with a lingering shred of decency nonetheless (most of them, at least).
    Trutfully, if Horde's honor is going to be about honoring one's word, or more specifically for Forsaken if it's going to be about respecting one's free will and respecting their allies, I'd be more than okay with that. I actually think Forsaken under Nathanos could pull off something like that and still keep their brutaility towards their enemies.

    What's frustrating though is that it feels like somewhere along the way they managed to turn this whole honor thing into one giant meme, be it because of constant repetition of the word or characters that are supposed to represent it acting all whiny and hypocritical. Even if goal gets realized, how they realized it puts a big stain on everything after. Personally, as someone who preferres Western Horde and doesn't mind noblesavagery maybe as much as some others do, I can barely make myself get over the fact that they once again involved Alliance in all this and I find myself in temptation to support Sylvanas just out of spite.

    As for Forsaken, what's got their fans worried is Calia peeping it's ugly head around the corner. For what you suggested, assuming Sylvanas is gonna go, I think Nathanos could work rather well for slightly toning them down as opposed to major shift putting Calia in charge would likely cause.
    Last edited by Dagoth Ur; 2019-04-27 at 06:43 PM.

  16. #216
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Trutfully, if Horde's honor is going to be about honoring one's word, or more specifically for Forsaken if it's going to be about respecting one's free will and respecting their allies, I'd be more than okay with that. I actually think Forsaken under Nathanos could pull off something like that and still keep their brutaility towards their enemies.
    I think there is an extent to which "honor" can reasonably be applied to enemies as well and that can work for Forsaken too, like discarding the idea of killing people needlessly (like civilians) which is fine as long the Forsaken remain free to deploy whatever ruthless tactic they deem necessary against combatants, without being absorbed into the more Orcish conception of honor (namely the Saurfang one, where he deemed "dishonorable" the killing of Malfurion because he interpreted the druid's fight against the Warchief as a duel where he had no place to interfere). That being said, respecting the Forsaken's fundamental ideology regarding free will and the necessary respect towards the risen people should indeed remain the main pillar of the Forsaken's conception of "honor".

    What's frustrating though is that it feels like somewhere along the way they managed to turn this whole honor thing into one giant meme, be it because of constant repetition of the word or characters that are supposed to represent it acting all whiny and hypocritical. Even if goal gets realized, how they realized it puts a big stain on everything after. Personally, as someone who preferres Western Horde and doesn't mind noblesavagery maybe as much as some others do, I can barely make myself get over the fact that they once again involved Alliance in all this and I find myself in temptation to support Sylvanas just out of spite.
    They turned "honor" into a meme because Blizzard had the word spouted by too many characters without any context, with each of these characters spouting the word followed by their own idea of honor while implicitly trying to extend it over the entire Horde. Even though that wasn't probably the desired end (since we indeed got the Forsaken angle of what being "honorable" or simply decent mean for them) it often ended up looking like that by having an incredibly old orc talking about honor and two "sweet boys" like Baine and Anduin, all people who are making the word look like a joke at this point, which is more about the characters being bad (Baine/Anduin) or mishandled (Saurfang) than anything inherently wrong with the word.

    As for Forsaken, what's got their fans worried is Calia peeping it's ugly head around the corner. For what you suggested, assuming Sylvanas is gonna go, I think Nathanos could work rather well for slightly toning them down as opposed to major shift putting Calia in charge would likely cause.
    I'm not particularly concerned about the Forsaken's identity, I think they're safe even without Sylvanas and maybe will actually improve without her. That being said, I'm not entirely sure who should take the lead after her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    I'm not particularly concerned about the Forsaken's identity, I think they're safe even without Sylvanas and maybe will actually improve without her. That being said, I'm not entirely sure who should take the lead after her.
    Calia, obviously. Or maybe Anduin personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Slant is an extremist, willing to sacrifice the lives of everyone to keep his wet dream of the EU alive.
    You shouldn't support people like him, it's like supporting ISIS.

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