Remember when hunters were fine? Zero in M CoS.

[Danwo]

I think it's very obvious. If you want to be good in WOW you need to play more then hunter in order to actually be a good player.

I know its very sad since many here play hardcore hunter because they enjoy the history of a hunter or like to have a pet with them.

Playing a hunter is enjoyable, but not rewarding.

[DotJun]

Extremes... extremes...

There are other important factors than just “ease of play”. (I think you know that)

Im just saying that BM is a low risk spec which is a strength in itself.

Again, that still doesn’t explain why people racing for world first don’t just run all BM dps?

For progression the most important aspect is reducing risk isn’t it? With so many posters stating how easy mode BM is compared to others, I just don’t see why they aren’t used exclusively unless of course there’s more to it than that like not enough dps?

Free movement while doing 100% easy mode dps rotation sounds like progressions dream doesn’t it?


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[Kaver]

Again, that still doesn’t explain why people racing for world first don’t just run all BM dps?

For progression the most important aspect is reducing risk isn’t it?

No, no it is not

[Nythiz]

And the price is already payed, BM is only good for ST yet not the best + AoE on packed mobs where other classes have it better than him. BM has no niche hence it's not taken for fights where heavy dotting is involved for example.

That IS our niche though. A niche is a speciality. Our niche is more apparent on bosses where a lot of constant movement is needed and that don't involve a lot of spread cleave situations. Unfortunately BfDA nor CoS really has many, if any, fights falling in that category.

And other specs have other strength, I think we finaly agree on the topic.

This I agree on. And it's something that annoys me the most in these kind of back and forths about BM's so called strength in "ease of play".
If BM really have SUCH an advantage on fights where you have to do mechanics and on progression fights like some people in this thread claim, then why don't we see that in logs. Even on progression fights, where there isn't a ton of spread cleave, we see BM straggling behind.

BM shouldn't be bottom charts "because it's easy to do dps with", if that was true, that strength should pay off somewhere.
If other specs can do more dps while handling their weaknesses poorly, then really how much of a strength is this "unlimited mobility" really ?

Also I'm not convinced that BM really is that much easier to play.
People (like Kaver in this thread) like to sell that message; but there are a ton of other specs that are as easy, if not easier, to play optimally. If the only factor in his equation is the fact BM can do dps while moving, that is a pretty weak argument just on it's own.

(NOTE: I think BM is currently in a pretty good spot. The current raids don't really cater well to melee-ish specs, which I would consider BM to be one of.
I'm merely stating that BM's so called ultimate strength is only really a strength if it pays off in practice, which it often doesn't.)

I think it's very obvious. If you want to be good in WOW you need to play more then hunter in order to actually be a good player.

I know its very sad since many here play hardcore hunter because they enjoy the history of a hunter or like to have a pet with them.

Playing a hunter is enjoyable, but not rewarding.

You can play solely hunter and still get good at the game. There is more specs than just BM, and even BM has a few more caveats than meets the eye.
Being BM allows you to tackle a lot of the more special mechanics in the game.

I do agree they need to working on the feeling of the spec being more rewarding. There are a lot of missed opportunities to give the spec a higher skill ceiling, without making the skillfloor or baseline spec harder to play. More emphasis on keeping up 3 stacks of Frenzy/Barbed Shot would be an easy start.

[Azortharion]

It's more that some specs are ridiculously OP than Hunters being bad, be it for damage reasons (warlocks, priests) or mechanical/utility reasons (ele shamans.. also warlocks xd).

[Kolle]

It's more that some specs are ridiculously OP than Hunters being bad, be it for damage reasons (warlocks, priests) or mechanical/utility reasons (ele shamans.. also warlocks xd).

Iny my opinion, hunters arent that bad. In raids, they are mid tier, but in m+, they have a bigger value. If you have good azerite traits and know what to do, especially how to use you utilities, they are pretty good. You have a stun, a BL pet, misdirection and can feign death skip some packs if done correctly. The purge/soothe ability is also pretty decent. Sometimes, the pet AI sucks which is a known fact, but overall, I am quite satisfied with BM hunters.

[Specialka]

Iny my opinion, hunters arent that bad. In raids, they are mid tier, but in m+, they have a bigger value. If you have good azerite traits and know what to do, especially how to use you utilities, they are pretty good. You have a stun, a BL pet, misdirection and can feign death skip some packs if done correctly. The purge/soothe ability is also pretty decent. Sometimes, the pet AI sucks which is a known fact, but overall, I am quite satisfied with BM hunters.

You do realize that Hunters have 3 specs, right?

[Piesor]

What kind of buffs do we need to be able to get into a raid group again?

Trueshot Aura / unique pet skills like wolve's howl or ravager's armor pen. Just something that boosts the raid....

[Rhaxus]

You do realize that Hunters have 3 specs, right?

how is that relevant to his opinion? as long as your class has a strong spec for the content ( in this case m+) then you should play it.
and he is right: while hunters are middling in raids right now, they have a pretty strong option for m+ in bm.

[Specialka]

And that's a pity because BM is braindead to play. That is my point.

[Trapstarz]

And that's a pity because BM is braindead to play. That is my point.

What are, in your opinion, the challenging spec that are hard to play ? As far as I remember WoW as whole isn't challenging since the end of Cataclysm or the pruning of WoD. What are the things that make you say "wow this dude is such a high skilled player in BFA" ?

[Specialka]

A high raider.io score?

As far as specs goes, some specs are a bit harder to play (feral druid comes to mind). But BM hunter is just spam button on cooldown non stop while having no rotation and nearly no ressource management and 0 cast time so 100% mobility. If you find that hard to play, what can I say?

And as far as Hunter goes, Survival is a bit harder since melee and in high key, while it has a simple rotation, it lacks survability and the difficulty is around that. MM is not that simple to play great because you can never hit 100 focus and you have to anticipate your cd while being stationary to use Aimed shot.

The issue with BM is that the skill ceiling is very low.

[Trapstarz]

A high raider.io score?

As far as specs goes, some specs are a bit harder to play (feral druid comes to mind). But BM hunter is just spam button on cooldown non stop while having no rotation and nearly no ressource management and 0 cast time so 100% mobility. If you find that hard to play, what can I say?

And as far as Hunter goes, Survival is a bit harder since melee and in high key, while it has a simple rotation, it lacks survability and the difficulty is around that. MM is not that simple to play great because you can never hit 100 focus and you have to anticipate your cd while being stationary to use Aimed shot.

The issue with BM is that the skill ceiling is very low.

You didn't answer my question : what spec offers a challenge to play ?

It seems your PoV is more M+ oriented, what is your point behind the fact that raider.io doesn't show your ability to multiclass and play different role. EDIT : Do you value a player that plays 4 toon / specs around 2k1 more than a person that plays one spec but a 2k7 rating ?

Concerning BM hunter, you know that the spec requires around 15% of your time in downtime to be played optimaly (and I'm only taking about single target since it's much higher in AoE) and buttonsmash directly makes you lose DPS right ? If you "spam" in MM+ you become focus starved in 8s and can't keep up the cleave, losing DPS and single target on important target.

You answered your own concern : Survival lacks mecanics to do well in M+ period. Marks is simply not played because Trick shots is locked on 5 targets, it shouldn't be and this hurt the spec a lot. I like how much you value a preparation that involves 1.6s cast timing (since you spoke about the Trueshot window) it's almost the same cast time as a healer flash heal in comparison, do you find it hard to "anticipate" since all the others spells are free of movement in the Trueshot window ?

[Specialka]

By anticipate, I was talking about "mainly" the double tap windows when you use it with rapid fire as it doubles the focus regen. As far aimed shot goes, 1.6 cast time is not a big deal. You just need to move with steady shot between each cast if you need to.

I did not say that MM was hard to play. I said that MM is hard to play well, and harder to play than BM which has a skill ceiling very low.

As for raider.io, I think that anybody that goes above 1.8k rio is a good player. Above that, I do not really care as I do not compete in wow.

And overall, specs in wow are not hard to play. They are hard to play well while doing mecanics. Some are harder than others (again feral druid and maybe some others, rogue sub?)

[Nythiz]

But BM hunter is just spam button on cooldown non stop while having no rotation and nearly no ressource management and 0 cast time so 100% mobility. If you find that hard to play, what can I say?

That's not how BM plays though ?
If you claim you press everything on CD as BM; I even wonder if you play the spec, as that's not how it works.

I'm not saying there is a ton of depth. But there are a few factors to consider.
Spamming BS on cooldown will lead to much lower uptime of frenzy
Spamming CS will leave you focus starved and wastes KC cooldown reduction.

I mean by these definitions nearly all the specs in the game are braindead as they spam shit on cooldown.

The issue with BM is that the skill ceiling is very low.

This is somewhat agree with, but that's an issue for nearly every spec currently.

BM's thing is that it also has a low skill floor; quite easy to get into the spec, especially since everything is castable on the move.
But a low skill floor isn't bad by definition.

[Kaver]

That's not how BM plays though ?
If you claim you press everything on CD as BM; I even wonder if you play the spec, as that's not how it works.

I'm not saying there is a ton of depth. But there are a few factors to consider.
Spamming BS on cooldown will lead to much lower uptime of frenzy
Spamming CS will leave you focus starved and wastes KC cooldown reduction.

I mean by these definitions nearly all the specs in the game are braindead as they spam shit on cooldown.



This is somewhat agree with, but that's an issue for nearly every spec currently.

BM's thing is that it also has a low skill floor; quite easy to get into the spec, especially since everything is castable on the move.
But a low skill floor isn't bad by definition.

So the management of BM can be boiled down to:

1) Managing one single buff (Can be done semi-automatically with a WA)
2) Not spamming your filler ability.

That doesn't sound very challenging to me.

Refraining yourself from spamming CS is not a factor of challenge. The fact that you use this as an example just shows how simple and easy BM is. Of course you shouldn't spam CS. If you can't stop hitting CS at low focus, then you should have your head checked :P

BM doesn't really have any real management.

[Trapstarz]

So the management of BM can be boiled down to:

1) Managing one single buff (Can be done semi-automatically with a WA)
2) Not spamming your filler ability.

That doesn't sound very challenging to me.

Refraining yourself from spamming CS is not a factor of challenge. The fact that you use this as an example just shows how simple and easy BM is. Of course you shouldn't spam CS. If you can't stop hitting CS at low focus, then you should have your head checked :P

BM doesn't really have any real management.

You can also add : Gamble DoD buff, not losing a single KC timing, gamble Bestial Wrath since you can squeeze extraones if you calculate the CD + BS well enough, that means beeing enough ahead of the fight, the opposite of just knowing timer with fixed CD, things you can do with checking Wlogs for timers.
Managing pets in a AoE fight isn't a simple as you think if you wanna do the most damage and not "okish" parse.

Now are Boomy, Frost mage, Destro, Affliction, that much harder to play ? If you take a difficulty scale from 1 to 10 and every WoW class is at 1.5 and BM is a 1.4 in your head, how silly it is to argue that much around ?

[Specialka]

Casters and even MM have cast time so only that is harder to manage than BM.

[Trapstarz]

It's harder to perform with it if you greed or if you get bullied by abilities, you're totaly right.

[Nythiz]

So the management of BM can be boiled down to:

1) Managing one single buff (Can be done semi-automatically with a WA)
2) Not spamming your filler ability.

That doesn't sound very challenging to me.

Refraining yourself from spamming CS is not a factor of challenge. The fact that you use this as an example just shows how simple and easy BM is. Of course you shouldn't spam CS. If you can't stop hitting CS at low focus, then you should have your head checked :P

BM doesn't really have any real management.

Boiling it down like that quite literally makes nearly any spec braindead and without management.
If your point is that WoW has become much easier due to pruning and addons, then fine: I agree.

That has nothing to do with BM in particular though, it's equal across nearly all specs.

I still disagree on the CS spamming factor. You just dismissed the better half of my point.
I'm not just talking about spamming CS until you run out of focus. I'm also talking about not wasting KC cooldown reduction.

There is an actual check you have to make, where you cross check the cooldown of your KC there; of course you can also boil this down to brainless easy. But again, you're just dismissing anything which can remotely be considered a skill parameter.
The only thing I agree on, and something I wish blizzard would improve is the increase the skill ceiling of these things and make them have a bigger impact.

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Casters and even MM have cast time so only that is harder to manage than BM.

This get's repeated a lot, but I mostly find it annoying rather than hard. Annoying and hard are different things.

The only thing that sets a skill level here is the fact that learning the encounter leads to less movement (as you know what to expect and you can more reliably predict abilities / mechanics). I question how much of that is a class skill factor though.