Incels, and what social isolation does to the mind

[Frosteye]

True, responsibility is great... if only there was an advocate for that.... I can think of one, but bringing his name up triggers people here...

- - - Updated - - -



Because your responses come off to me as 100% hollow... probably the same way you see my responses.

You seem to have a political agenda, and you're not being constructive whatsoever in this thread. Incels are NOT a political issue rather a mental health issue.

[Elegiac]

Then you genuinely dont understand what it is.

Hang on, this is the part where Connal starts to realise he's arguing an indefensible position by himself and is going to "leave the thread" proclaiming his utter disappointment in the caricature left for the lack of empathy they supposedly once believed in. :a single tear glitters as it slides down the cheek:

[Elegiac]

Degenerate? Sorry, what? Do you subscribe to nazism? They're about the only ones using degenerate.

He's currently in the process of political radicalization, don't mind him.

It is kind of upsetting to see how many white gay men would be Republicans if the GOP wasn't actively opposed to them.

[Endus]

And I can find papers that go against that... usually from the people that originated psychology/sociology that the current "gender studies" idiots have corrupted.

"I can find a paper that says otherwise" is the same bullshit tactic that anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers use.

It's a deliberate attempt to cherry-pick to support your viewpoint, rather than engage in actual academic study.

[Elegiac]

Rather be "politically radicalized" than be part of the left and right monstrosity of this culture.

Yes, we know how above it all you are.

I'm surprised you don't drip some of that water you seem to be constantly carrying for the right wing while you're up there, though.

[luc54]

And this is at best misleading, since "hate" has two distinct interpretations.

"Hatred" is an issue when it's targeted at minority groups through prejudice and bigotry.

"Hate" for individuals and their terrible conduct is not something anyone on either political side has ever taken any position on.

We're engaging in the latter. You're trying to equate it with the former. Which is why I asked; is it okay to "hate" an unrepentant serial rapist? A terrorist who blew up an elementary school packed with children?

The issue isn't "hate", as an emotion. It's bigotry. Which isn't being discussed here, in the first place, making your stance on this misleading at best.

The problem here is you are comparing people that have done nothing physically wrong to people like ISIS or rapists. The latter ones have done some irreperable damage. However someone posting from his house, almost never leaving, how he hates women, isn't even remotely compareable to that shit. Yes thye are bigoted and have issues but comparing them two is ludricous.

I touched this on the angry men topic as well. I believe lot of them can be helped and steered into right path with the right support network. Lot of them have had none which is a big issue. It's easier for extremist groups to pick these vulnerable people up. That's why we have born in western world ISIS fighters, gang members, neo-nazis and other radical groups. This doesn't mean we need to tolerate the bigotry these radical groups show. Just support vulnerable people get jobs and balanced social networks that aren't radical.

[Claymore]

I find the incel community fascinating, because it's interesting to see what a lack of human response, and total social isolation does to the mind.

One false claim I often see is "they can't find a girlfriend because they are hateful misogynists". However, I don't believe that it's that simple, and I'll bring in some personal experiences.

The theory that it's SOLELY because of their hateful personality is based around the theory that they started out hateful. That they've "always been like that". The truth is that it's far from often the case. It's gradual social isolation.

I could've easily have become an incel. Want to know why?

I have Aspergers, which is a social hinderance in the way that I don't read body language and social cues anywhere near as good as neurotypicals, aka "normal people".

In elementary school, when I was between 13-15 (so 7th, up to 9th grade), I was bullied, because I was special and shy.
I had one friend, but the fact of the matter was that most boys bullied me relentlessly, girls looked disgusted when I wanted to initiate some kind of conversation with them and worst of all, I loved to chat online, so I was trying to hit on girls that way, people straight up told me I look like a sack of shit (luckily I got better in the looks department, from like a 2 to a 6, so nowadays I'm average).
The absolute worst thing a girl did to me was when we had dance practice in P.E, and the teacher assigned pairs. The girl I was assigned looked like she was about to throw up, talked to her friend and they excused themselves to the bathroom while laughing, never to return. I felt absolutely devastated.

I was so sad, and felt isolated from my peers. I saw them have big friend circles, make out with girls and I wondered why I couldn't get the same.
I wasn't hating on people, but I started to play WoW and isolate myself even more in high school, and I started to change my emotional state from plain "I'm sad" to somewhat bitter. Still not hateful, but it was more like "I'm useless, I'm ugly, people are so superstitous" etc.

Luckily, what DID pull me out of it was meeting a new friend. he was by no means a social king, but he still had a good enough social life he invited me to become a part of. Suddenly, I wasn't rotting away in my room, but instead I started to hang out on barbeque nights by the coast, going to pubs, actually get some positive responses from girls (I guess this is where my looks started to improve) and I finally lost my virginity at around 20-21.

My life is fine nowadays. I have enough friends, and I've had a few relationships and one night stands.

The point is, anyway, that I managed to sort out my life because one person literally saved me. If he didn't appear, I may just as well have become an incel and started to spew shit on incels.co I didn't start hateful, but total, social isolation DOES do toxic things to your mind, and unless someone saves you from it, things can take a turn for the worst and you dig yourself into a hole you yourself can't get out of without help.

I don't think incels deserve as much hate as they get right now, because more often than not there is an extremely sad story of bullying and social isolation of a person who didn't start hateful but who turned to the dark side, because years of social torment finally did it's toll.

Incels don't need to be vilified, they need all the help and sympathy they can get. But it's easy to be hateful, because people haven't been as balls-deep isolated and shunned socially, for as long as they have, so they simply don't understand, and what people don't understand they fear, and what people fear they hate. They need mental care, not to be shunned further.

I think this is a surprisingly insightful, well-written post.

In truth, I've struggled with similar issues, although I personally have no excuse. I've just always been hugely self-conscious; I'm a ginger, in a family of mostly dark-skinned Native Americans, all of whom teased me and often beat me from childhood through my teenage years, and put be down well well into my 20's before I finally cut them off.

I basically had so many insecurities -- coupled with a pretty nasty temper where I kept my emotions bottled-up -- I never even had a SHOT of being with a girl. But I always blamed it on that "it's because I'm ugly, just like they always said, I'm completely worthless". I basically saw real results -- that girls didn't like me -- and assigned blame to perhaps the wrong reason -- that it was because I was pale with red hair (don't get me wrong, I *do* think male redheads are fighting an uphill battle when trying to be attractive, but the MAIN reason I was alone was because of my own insecurities overshadowing any positive qualities I may have had).

In my early 20's, I was 100% the stereotypical "incel". I was bitter, self-hating, but also hateful. Seeing people "being happy" honestly bothered me, because I would always think "I want that. Why do they get to be happy, but not me?". And really, you could probably do a whole discussion, trying to break down exactly how many ways my line of thinking was messed up.

So eventually, I started to think "Well, I'm clearly not going to win a woman over on my own merits, so I'll at least try to get my shit together and make money". And make no mistake, I've worked hard, and despite a lot of setbacks, I've achieved some measure of success. But to no one's surprised, my standing with women hasn't improved.

I've always kind of known, but only more recently acknowledged the truth, that I just have way too many personal hang-ups to deal with. Really, I think people can pick up on that stuff, somehow. And it's nobody's responsibility to "fix me", it's up to me to work on dealing with my own problems, to make myself into a desirable kind of guy. But there are definitely days, too, where I think "Man, it sure would be nice to not be alone, and maybe have someone in my corner, rooting for me or encouraging me".

I suppose I'll say, I'm definitely finding the culture -- at least where *I* live (around DC) -- isn't terribly conducive to "fixing yourself". People seem to treat each other as being completely disposable (which I suppose is somewhat true), and it seems like basic courtesy is becoming a rarity (ie. I was suppose to meet a woman for drinks last week, she texts me to tell me she doesn't feel like going out, 30 minutes *AFTER* we were supposed to meet). I wouldn't say that's anything against women specifically, so much as part of me is like "Man, people in general just really suck".

Anyways... that's where I'm at, right now. Not even going to pretend I've got any of this shit figured out. Just trying to find my own place in the world. For reference, I'm 31, which isn't *that* old, but I honestly *feel* old sometimes.

[luc54]

Incels are disturbed. They are a danger to people around them, especially women.

There's no need to be absolutists about this. There most certainly are people that can be done nothing about. This doesn't downplay the fact that you can prevent lot of these people from walking down this path. This is interesting article which doesn't concern incels per say but radicals, namely neo-nazi and islamists. https://www.vox.com/world/2019/1/14/...sm-deeyah-khan

Filmmaker Deeyah Khan sits down with white supremacist Ken Parker in White Right: Meeting the Enemy. Parker has since left the neo-Nazi movement.

Now doing it to radical groups isn't very wise and can be quite dangerous. That's why you should try to target vulnerable youth before they have been recruited.

[Tiwack]

This story we tell ourselves has to be abandoned, it has failed: “A man can believe the universe is blind and life aimless and yet behave as nobly and as cheerfully as any saint.”

Why? It is true but it necessitates love and freedom of choice - and these are hard if you're doubtful but adamant in atheism. Because most teachings on those subjects are in the timeless ballpark and since been adopted into them just as that quote will eventually become. It holds true but it's only realized when we celebrate the ourselves and each other as individuals with relationships in order to live a long healthy life. They require personal practice/experience, because you have to fumble and create them, yourself included, faith or no faith.

[Elegiac]

A decedent, amoral, culture with no real responsibility, degenerates and dies, so a life of virtue of a religous kind, and by that I mean the original meaning of that world... relinking yourself with the transcendent as you come to understand it, is the only real salvation for a person, and by extension society.

Outside of that you have tyranny, or noble lie.

Without that, the West will rot on the vine.

Or more directly... Socrates: "Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

If you are interested you can alway read:

The Trial and Death of Socrates: Four Dialogues
https://www.amazon.com/Trial-Death-S.../dp/B008TVLOZM

Why is it that these hot takes about the decline modern culture invariably entail a white dude bemoaning how much better things were before women and The Gays™ got uppity.

And yes, what an absolute crock of BS.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I find the incel community fascinating, because it's interesting to see what a lack of human response, and total social isolation does to the mind.

One false claim I often see is "they can't find a girlfriend because they are hateful misogynists". However, I don't believe that it's that simple, and I'll bring in some personal experiences.

The theory that it's SOLELY because of their hateful personality is based around the theory that they started out hateful. That they've "always been like that". The truth is that it's far from often the case. It's gradual social isolation.

I could've easily have become an incel. Want to know why?

I have Aspergers, which is a social hinderance in the way that I don't read body language and social cues anywhere near as good as neurotypicals, aka "normal people".

In elementary school, when I was between 13-15 (so 7th, up to 9th grade), I was bullied, because I was special and shy.
I had one friend, but the fact of the matter was that most boys bullied me relentlessly, girls looked disgusted when I wanted to initiate some kind of conversation with them and worst of all, I loved to chat online, so I was trying to hit on girls that way, people straight up told me I look like a sack of shit (luckily I got better in the looks department, from like a 2 to a 6, so nowadays I'm average).
The absolute worst thing a girl did to me was when we had dance practice in P.E, and the teacher assigned pairs. The girl I was assigned looked like she was about to throw up, talked to her friend and they excused themselves to the bathroom while laughing, never to return. I felt absolutely devastated.

I was so sad, and felt isolated from my peers. I saw them have big friend circles, make out with girls and I wondered why I couldn't get the same.
I wasn't hating on people, but I started to play WoW and isolate myself even more in high school, and I started to change my emotional state from plain "I'm sad" to somewhat bitter. Still not hateful, but it was more like "I'm useless, I'm ugly, people are so superstitous" etc.

Luckily, what DID pull me out of it was meeting a new friend. he was by no means a social king, but he still had a good enough social life he invited me to become a part of. Suddenly, I wasn't rotting away in my room, but instead I started to hang out on barbeque nights by the coast, going to pubs, actually get some positive responses from girls (I guess this is where my looks started to improve) and I finally lost my virginity at around 20-21.

My life is fine nowadays. I have enough friends, and I've had a few relationships and one night stands.

The point is, anyway, that I managed to sort out my life because one person literally saved me. If he didn't appear, I may just as well have become an incel and started to spew shit on incels.co I didn't start hateful, but total, social isolation DOES do toxic things to your mind, and unless someone saves you from it, things can take a turn for the worst and you dig yourself into a hole you yourself can't get out of without help.

I don't think incels deserve as much hate as they get right now, because more often than not there is an extremely sad story of bullying and social isolation of a person who didn't start hateful but who turned to the dark side, because years of social torment finally did it's toll.

Incels don't need to be vilified, they need all the help and sympathy they can get. But it's easy to be hateful, because people haven't been as balls-deep isolated and shunned socially, for as long as they have, so they simply don't understand, and what people don't understand they fear, and what people fear they hate. They need mental care, not to be shunned further.

They do deserve hate they're man-child that won't seek out the help they need. They blame everything but themselves. I was an incel/nice guy in high-school but I was just a giant bitch not a victim.

[Elegiac]

It is not about being gay, you can be gay, or whatever else, and still be virtuous.

It's also irrelevant. The point is that you're romanticising a past that didn't exist.

[minteK917]

In the end this thread ends up with connal trying to sound smart, some people wasting their time on him and most people rolling their eyes and remembering they used to sound like that fresh in college too. I still rememer when i came to the conclusion i could fix everything because i read Ayan Rand. Im glad most of us grow out of our "enlightenment phase".

[Elegiac]

I do not disagree with sociology...I disagree what some are turning it into...

You disagree with what people say "some" are turning it into, much like the left in your head has become a parody of itself.

[Elegiac]

In the end this thread ends up with connal trying to sound smart, some people wasting their time on him and most people rolling their eyes and remembering they used to sound like that fresh in college too. I still rememer when i came to the conclusion i could fix everything because i read Ayan Rand. Im glad most of us grow out of our "enlightenment phase".

20 Something Dude: *takes PHIL101 once* I just...feel so connected..to Enlightenment culture....

[Voidwielder]

Jesus fucking Christ on a cross, of all the things you could worry or write about, several threads about these evolutionary dead-ends.

They can't be saved. They can't be changed. If somehow, someday one of them decides to, he will. But it's pointless to talk about it.

[Elegiac]

I am not romanotizising, I am looking for lessons that can be applied today.

Have you considered maybe the past doesn't have analogues for every situation.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Jesus fucking Christ on a cross, of all the things you could worry or write about, several threads about these evolutionary dead-ends.

They can't be saved. They can't be changed. If somehow, someday one of them decides to, he will. But it's pointless to talk about it.

They can be change it requires them facing reality and just owning up to your shit. You need to seek the mental help when it's required.

[Elegiac]

Quite ironic if you ask me

Hey, Socrates was *also* a hypocrite.

> Rails against sophists despite being one

[Voidwielder]

They can be change it requires them facing reality and just owning up to your shit. You need to seek the mental help when it's required.

No, you or I or anyone else, can't change them. It's internal process, no amount of threads or ''social awareness'' (which is just sadism hiding behind universal love) can fix them.

As several people in this thread have stated, it starts with the person herself/himself. The beginning and the end of it.