Belfs turned into traitors and scumbags

[seleri]

There wasn't much belf population to begin with, if we are going by that character-perspective quote. But that didn't stop Jaina, did it? Sylvanas does not seem to care much about what race you are and rather, under what banner you are. And the belfs were under the banner of the faction which did attack her openly and without provocation.

I don't like this willingness to look past Jaina's deeds while condemning Sylvanas. Which leads me to suspect that the last paragraph is lip service.

I'm not looking past what Jaina did. Jaina killing Aethas' guards immediately was wrong, Jaina killing Sunreaver civilians was wrong (though how much of that actually happened is, sadly, up in the air; not to mention how much falls on Vereesa as opposed to Jaina).

Comparing the Purge of Dalaran to the Burning of Teldrassil is ridiculous though. It shows you either don't know what you're talking about or you have a tremendous bias.

Lor'themar's prime goal is the survival of his people. He's smart enough to see staying with Sylvanas will most likely get them killed, one way or another, and he's smart enough to know warring with Jaina in Naz'jatar will get everyone killed. None of it is out of character as part of ~Golden's evil agenda~.

[Mehrunes]

I'm not looking past what Jaina did. Jaina killing Aethas' guards immediately was wrong, Jaina killing Sunreaver civilians was wrong (though how much of that actually happened is, sadly, up in the air; not to mention how much falls on Vereesa as opposed to Jaina).

Vereesa's actions still fall on Jaina because Jaina is the one who let them loose, knowing full well how much they hated the Blood Elves. On top of that, Jaina gave them some anti-Blood Elf orders that made even Vereesa stop for a moment, like killing the Sunreavers' dragonhawks.

[Minikin]

Lor'themar goes there to free Baine. Jaina is there to free Baine too. What is he supposed to do? Start a fight he cant possibly win against someone who is, at least at that moment, working towards the same goal as him?

You are wasting your breath on them. These are the same ppl who claim "alliance are cry babies" while at the same time authoring threads day in day out whining about horde/sylvanas/honor/blood oath

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Blood Elf betrayal? Elves being mercurial and self-interested? /pikachuface

You're telling me the same group that betrayed the Alliance to join their mortal enemies, then betrayed the Kirin Tor and helped Garrosh get his hands on an artifact for murderous purposes betrayed someone!?

This 100% /10

[PaladinBash]

Yeah sure, "turned into". Elves of all kinds have consistently backstabbed and betrayed everyone over the course of the game. Look at the Nightborne- backstab Azshara, backstab Elisande, backstab Alliance, backstab Horde in progress. It's not just Blood Elves.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah sure, "turned into". Elves of all kinds have consistently backstabbed and betrayed everyone over the course of the game. Look at the Nightborne- backstab Azshara, backstab Elisande, backstab Alliance, backstab Horde in progress. It's not just Blood Elves.

It is not just elves, it is most races. Humans are notorious backstabbers, so were many orcs, forsaken etc.

[Zandalariprelate]

The trolls has a monopoly on space, what were the humans supposed to do? They got kicked out by their Vrykul parents and told to live in a new, unfamiliar land without any support. The humans do so, through no fault of their own, and butt up against the trolls (and vice versa). Also, I don't think the humans 'went back to troll hunting', they were actively hostile with the trolls. I'd have to re-read my Chronicle though.

The lands of the south was free from trolls, hell there is some mention in the Chronicles about the humans wanting to take the stranglethorn vale from the jungle trolls only to get their ass kicked and needed the help of Medivh in not being wipe out. The humans like trolls or many races from Azeroth are conquerors by heart, it just that the writers and most of the current leader want to swept under the rug their bad "history"

[Kyphael]

Undead turned into traitors and scumbags*

Fixed the title for you, OP. Baine and his Tauren have more rightful claim to the Horde than Sylvanas and her Undead. The Undead were allowed in the Horde by Thrall as courtesy, if anything to be used against meat shields against The Lich King; The Forsaken needed the Horde more than the Horde needed them. Vol'jin making her Warchief was a mistake that the founding races of the Horde will soon rectify.

The Alliance vs. Horde conflict does not define the Horde in lore. Maybe in-game, but in lore, a noble Horde character finding his "Warchief's" morally ambiguous does not a traitor make. What is defined as game play ideology does not define lore. Warchiefs have been challenged and overthrown before. Sylvanas won't be the first and given Blizzard's creative reach, she won't be the last.

As for Lor'themar's reasoning, he's perfectly within his right to do what he wishes in the best interests of his people. He's not Sylvanas' underling like Nathanos, he's a racial leader, regent to the throne and commander of the forces of Quel'telas.

[GreenJesus]

Lorthemar only ever based his decisions on the blood elves. Why is he freeing Baine? Why would a blood elf care about some talking cow that worked with the alliance during war? He's killing forsaken and rangers that used to be Sindorei to save a fucking cow.... my god the story is bad.

[Syegfryed]

>sylvanas use belfs to be killed as bait

i sleep

>lorthemar stand with the horde

real shit??

pure gold as always.

[arcaneshot]

Sylvanas has shown she only cares about whatever her end goal is and she'll throw the Horde (including blood elves) through a meat grinder to accomplish it. It's completely reasonable that Lor'themar wouldn't want his people to be used like that.

You know, people like you keep saying stuff like this, but this has yet to happen in-game or even on the PTR.

Or are you mistaking Lightforged for Horde, because the Lightforged certainly threw their lives away in the Nazmir feint.

[Gann Stonespire]

Undead turned into traitors and scumbags*

Fixed the title for you, OP. Baine and his Tauren have more rightful claim to the Horde than Sylvanas and her Undead. The Undead were allowed in the Horde by Thrall as courtesy, if anything to be used against meat shields against The Lich King; The Forsaken needed the Horde more than the Horde needed them. Vol'jin making her Warchief was a mistake that the founding races of the Horde will soon rectify.

The Alliance vs. Horde conflict does not define the Horde in lore. Maybe in-game, but in lore, a noble Horde character finding his "Warchief's" morally ambiguous does not a traitor make. What is defined as game play ideology does not define lore. Warchiefs have been challenged and overthrown before. Sylvanas won't be the first and given Blizzard's creative reach, she won't be the last.

As for Lor'themar's reasoning, he's perfectly within his right to do what he wishes in the best interests of his people. He's not Sylvanas' underling like Nathanos, he's a racial leader, regent to the throne and commander of the forces of Quel'telas.

You do realize Baine has repeatedly backstabbed the tauren and undermined their survival, right?

[Felixon]

The implication of the belfs in the new story is terrible. Lor'themar is turned into a scumbag idiot who will stand by and allow the Sunreavers to get butchered upholding the laws of the Horde and of the Warchief back to back with the same person who ... butchered Sunreavers not so long ago.

The Belfs were ready to join the Alliance in MoP and I totally get that since the other option was to be killed off one by one just cause Garrosh didn't like them, so I can't blame Lor'themar for seeking other options. But then the purge of Dalaran happens which enrages the belfs. So they would rather go back to being killed off one by one instead of being killed all at once.

Now we get this abomination of a story that makes no goddamn sense. First of all, why the hell would he be the one turning against Sylvanas who, for better or worse only helped him and his people out when they were in need, that is to say, during the same time the Alliance was sabotaging the belf efforts to reclaim their lands. She supports them in retaking their home and vouches for them to join the Horde.

There's also that bit with the blackmail (which wasn't really blackmail) and that turned out well for them. So I see absolutely no reason they would hold it against Sylvanas. So for better or worse, Sylvanas helped them more than anyone around them. The Forsaken did for them what they did for the Nightborne.

But ok, being a scumbag is sometimes a thing. However making deals with Jaina Proudmoore of all people? Come on! They could have, at least used a different character and even then it wouldn't have made much sense but it does not shamelessly take a proverbial shit on the previously established story. It would have made more sense if Varian was the one alive pushing the truce and Jaina would be dead.

What the hell is this?

Lor'themar respects Sylvanas,cause she is a deceased hero of her people,who died defending their homeland,but it doesn't mean,that they support her views. He is not a blind supporter of her methods - just remember their dialog in Siege of Orgrimmar about raising the deceased blood elves as undead.

[Evilfish]

I'm not looking past what Jaina did. Jaina killing Aethas' guards immediately was wrong, Jaina killing Sunreaver civilians was wrong (though how much of that actually happened is, sadly, up in the air; not to mention how much falls on Vereesa as opposed to Jaina).

Comparing the Purge of Dalaran to the Burning of Teldrassil is ridiculous though. It shows you either don't know what you're talking about or you have a tremendous bias.

Lor'themar's prime goal is the survival of his people. He's smart enough to see staying with Sylvanas will most likely get them killed, one way or another, and he's smart enough to know warring with Jaina in Naz'jatar will get everyone killed. None of it is out of character as part of ~Golden's evil agenda~.

Look man, it's not survival when you favor the side who tried to kill you off in the past and ditch those who have supported you. Whatever Sylvanas might be to the Alliance she's not to the belfs, because she only helped them in the past. In fact that's the opposite of survival. So again, applause for your twisted logic.

[Cobman]

Lor'themar respects Sylvanas,cause she is a deceased hero of her people,who died defending their homeland,but it doesn't mean,that they support her views. He is not a blind supporter of her methods - just remember their dialog in Siege of Orgrimmar about raising the deceased blood elves as undead.

And those dark rangers all come from wc3? DD

[Evilfish]

Actually that is not 100% true. Certainly she has more helped than hindered but Sylvanas demand for Blood Elf support in the Northrend campaign was very distressing since whatever remained of the Blood Elf military was bloodied and recuperating due to the Sunwell incident.
Moreover the Blood Elves don't have much to win from this war and they are the most vulnerable target given that they are alone if the Alliance wins against the remnants of the Horde after the destruction of UC. If it was not for the Void Elves who are an existential threat to the Sunwell and thus the Sin'dorei nation, the blood elves would probably be best served by doing what they planned back in MoP and joining the Alliance. Yes they have legitimate grievances against Jaina Proudmore and minor but legitimate grievances against the Alliance and the Kal'dorei but so do they against the orcs.
Indeed if the Alliance did want to go on the offense and do so on the same level that the Horde does, not caring for civilian casualties, they could destroy the Blood Elves with absurd ease. It has been shown that the Void Elves can penetrate the wards around the Sunwell and their very presence would be enough to corrupt it and damage the Sin'dorei irreperably. The Alliance would never do this ofc (unless something really wonky happens involving Turalyon and/or Arator) but they CAN do this (or at least, Alleria and Umbric can).

You need to stop using that as some kind of proof that Sylvanas hates the belfs or whatever it's supposed to represent. The fact was everyone was going to Northrend to fight the Lich King and the Belfs who had more to suffer at the hands of the Lich King, more than most in the Horde at least, wanted to sit this one out. Sylvanas only gave them a shove in the right direction and it turned out well for them since they didn't have any losses worth mentioning and they actively participated in the downfall of their worse enemy. So how in the hell can they hold this against Sylvanas or the Horde for that matter?

And why the hell would they join the Alliance when the likes of Proudmoore and Graymane are running about with no one holding their leash? Free to attack anyone they might have a problem with even if their weak High King says no and all they get for that is a little scolding.

Now I can understand disagreeing with Sylvanas based on realistic issues, which the belfs don't really have. Hell I could understand Lor'themar turning on Sylvanas cause she didn't give him poon when he wanted some and he took it really personal. It still would make him a scumbag but at least it would make more sense. What I don't understand is why the hell would you rub against the Alliance when you got screwed so many times over by associating with them.

[Amaterasu65]

You forgot to add hypocrites to the title. Then it would be complete. They are all those things but not for the reasons listed.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

@Evilfish this plot isn't about The BEs or Jaina or anyone else except Sylvanas. They are just devices to further the plot centered around her, and the idea that she will most likely be Kerrigan 2.0.

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The Belfs were ready to join the Alliance in MoP.

That is the true question of what the hell?

That was never actually "about" to happen.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I am aware. Then I wonder, how much of this whole thread is true if dude is just pulling the shit out of his as and claiming it as fact.

It was a plot point, but its not like it would have ever actually happened.

[Swnem]

"The story doesn't have everyone bow down to my precious Lich Queen! It's terrible!" - the thread.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"The story doesn't have everyone bow down to my precious Lich Queen! It's terrible!" - the thread.

I think the OP is right to criticize - but I think the real issue is the whole purge of Dalaran and how it was played out. The writers for some reason thought the Purge and Ending of SoO would be fist bump moments, but they really weren't at all. Both could have been cool, but they weren't. Killing civilians? I get there were using Jaina et al. as a conduit for change within the Alliance, but it was really out of character for Jaina to order the killing of random civilians that were in her city ...