Yet it is against what his entire character stands for, Lor'themar tosses his own morals aside all the time for pragmatic decisions, why would baine be more precious to him than his own people for example, why would he suddenly set Baine as a line not to be crossed.
These two have never been close, if he would make some comments about baine being necessary, due to his connections for the days to come, the whole thing would become much better, not this oh noes Baine is in danger lets roll out.
Last edited by Combatbutler; 2019-05-08 at 08:49 PM.
Let's not pretend this was done for his people.
Freeing Baine, someone rightfully imprisoned for treason and helping the Alliance, causing him to get embroidered in a stupid civil war, where he's not even sure if his people will fight on his side, is stupid.
He even says he's doing this for Baine.
This is the same circular logic as @Skulltaker was engaging in on the previous page. Sylvanas came after Baine because he killed Horde soldiers and aided the Alliance. Which Lor'themar was not doing before. The only reason he could possibly become a target (of just punishment for literal treason) is by doing what he did now. So justifying that choice with "welp, she came after Baine for treason" doesn't make sense whatsoever because it's this very choice that would put the Baine-like target on him in the first place.
Except ending the war with the Alliance while they're still standing is inherently worthless. Because the peace with the Alliance is inherently worthless. If they are going to pick a fight with the Horde over their horseshit delusions even during Satan-led apocalypse, they are too unhinged for anyone to treat peace with them seriously. Especially in situation where the perpetrators of that in the Alliance then go unpunished, even if the High King openly admits they were not only in the wrong, but broke his own orders in the process as well. The Alliance is a faction ruled by someone who's merely all talk but no action about peace and who's either too spineless, too biased in favor of the Alliance or too arbitrary to do anything when the Alliance fucks up and acts against his precious peace. And who can't keep warmongers like Genn and Rogers in check for shit.
Or from people who actually understand what treason means.
Why would Baine care more about a single human than an entire Elven nation his own people has close relations to just because of the Druids? It's just another part of the story that does not make sense....but the answer is the same: Because the writers needed certain characters to act at moment B instead of moment A.
On a similar note: What the Horde still does in Darkshore is essentially Scourge2. And it's not secret or hidden by any means. How many Druids+Paladins of the Horde have spoken out against that? None. Because they are supposed to do that at moment C.
Except they didn't "betray the Alliance" to join the Horde. They weren't in the Alliance at the time and even though they were in talks to rejoin the Alliance used the guise of diplomacy to sabotage their defenses and invade Ghostlands. So if anyone betrayed anyone here, it'd be the Alliance. And one Sunreaver agent aiding Garrosh does not reflect on the race as a hole. Not that it was really treason either. Jaina took sides in the Horde-Alliance conflict prior to the theft of the Divine Bell. So the Sunreaver agent of Garrosh merely followed his glorious leader's glorious example.
Jaina and Lor'themar don't team up to save Baine. Lor'themar isn't even in the scenario to save Baine from what I've seen, he just, presumably, tells Saurfang and Thrall. And even they don't intentionally team up with Alliance to save Baine. They run into Jaina and Shaw who are there to do the same thing and decide to help each other since their goal is the same.
Jaina and Lor'themar (and Shandris and Thalyssra) team up to stop Azshara because they know she'll kill them all, and then the rest of the world, if they don't.
Lor'themar may have respected Sylvanas in life and been grateful for her help in getting them accepted into the Horde, but he's also smart enough to see she's quickly becoming Arthas. Y'know, the guy that butchered Quel'thalas and caused quel'dorei take the name "blood elves/sin'dorei" because of it. I doubt he'd want to stay allied with someone like that and the rebellion is his best hope of his people surviving.
Baine specifically isn't precious to him - but what Baine is standing for, the opposite of what Sylvanas is standing for, does. Burying his morals out of pragmatism had indeed been a recurring pattern for Lor'themar, and the source of many of his regrets. The High Elven exile, the forced march into Northrend, etc. etc. He's making a different kind of decision now, and growing as a character.
It's not about any kind of personal relationship he has with Baine, per se; it's about the principles he stands for and what he thinks is the direction of Sylvanas' Horde.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
You don't? Well, you should, because Lor'themar is Horde's fan number two (first being Baine of course). And how can the Horde's values (that are obviously set in stone because the Warchiefs following Thrall totally didn't have the same absolute dictatorial powers as him that'd allow them to change the values of the Horde as they pleased) be unknown to anyone at this point?
Value number 1, green guilt for Horde's previous actions, even if you have nothing to do with them. The atonement is starving in a shithole wasteland. Trying to get more resources to improve the quality of life in the shithole wasteland is heretical. Value number 2, love Alliance more than you love the Horde. Betray the Horde for the Alliance if needed. Exile Horde members wanting to fight the Alliance in a war started by the Alliance. Ignore Alliance's acts of aggression even if you have Alliance intrusions next to the capital of your Tauren allies.
That's it really. Nice and short. So there's no excuse not to know the sacred values of the Horde.
But they weren't his people. They were Horde members fighting against the holy Alliance. Hence, heretics. And heretics must be purged.
That's obviously not true. Sylvanas would totally punish the Blood Elves for treasons (like she did Baine) even before they betrayed him (unlike like she did Baine, because that argument is totes consistent). It is known. So obviously the answer to her vile ways of punishing treason and upholding the rule of law in the process is to betray her and give her a reason to punish you for treason. If you say that 20 times in a row really, really fast while stabbing a printed picture of Sylvanas it starts to make sense.
I can't actually dispute this as a valid interpretation, i.e taking Lor'themar as believing Baine is more virtuous than he himself is and thus choosing to take this decision in a Baine-like fashion. Beyond laughing at why anyone would want to be like Baine though, I'd still argue it's poor as it's not in keeping with his character and how he acted in more severe situations prior, which is the main issue here. Lor'themar previously covertly tried to defect to the Alliance and then built up his separate powerbase rather than gasping with shock that the Warchief would kill someone who was committing treason, to answer @Mehrunes .
As for the prior line, it was the one about the debt he owes the Horde. Still nonsense, but nowhere as egregious.
@Sharby
That's because it's irrelevant. Nathanos even knowing is questionably canon and Bob is unaware of it when rendering his decision. He would have supported killing them regardless of whether Sylvanas did as well because she's contracted a Baine-like desire to kill her own side to aid her enemy and indeed does so since neither he nor any of the rebels are ever privy to this information.
Though while we're on that note, reminder that Lor'themar, Saurfang and so on are all acting on a false pretense since the loyalist path confirms that the tauren shaman was making it all up as Sylvanas didn't want Baine executed.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
His pragmatism is his best character trait, take it away and you will ruin him. Lor'themar was one of the best characters, because he wasn't like the rest of the braindead crew going on about hur dur I am going to blight you all to hell, or Justice and light in your face.
Baine does not stand for the horde, because the horde has no common culture ,principles, honor code, belief etc. which is precisely why this whole honor nonsense does not work. But blizz tries to use it as a Narrative regardless and it is laughably bad.It's not about any kind of personal relationship he has with Baine, per se; it's about the principles he stands for and what he thinks is the direction of Sylvanas' Horde.
Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.
Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.
How many times do you need to be pointed out that by Lor'themar's own goddamn admission Sylvanas has the loyalty of the majority of the Horde even at the very end of 8.2 before you get the memo? Baine, Thrall, Saurfang and Lor'themar are on their own.
The game's writers are making that so Baine isn't a traitor? When did they manage to retcon him betraying the Horde already?
Your contributions are as valuable as always. Which is obviously a lot :3