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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And how do you know that "item level" is all the reward those casual players want? There are those want the armor/weapon graphics for their transmog. There are those who do want a bit of challenge. There are those who want the pets/mounts that drop from the bosses. There are those who want the achievements. There are those who like raiding.


    That's false in the sense it's the only driving force.


    False as you can't buy every slot. Can't buy rings, trinkets and weapons. So that's 5-6 items out of 14-15 (depending if you DW or 2H).
    Let me rephrase a few things. Yes, there are other reasons to run LFR or do Normal/Heroic Raid Pugs, yes there are other driving forces to get people to guilds than just ilvl from a raid, and no you cannot buy every slot from Nazjatar (you get Trinkets, Rings, and Weapons from Mechagon instead, but you can absolutely get full 430 from WQs.

    However the Primary driving force is player power. By making all 430 gear available from the easiest content in the game in a 2 month period, there will absolutely be a negative effect on the items I mentioned above after the first month or so, as well as the overall MAUs - the primary metric given to the investors - for World of Warcraft, something we desperately need to not happen.

    Honestly, you don't have to take my word for it, just look at the history of the game - every single time they've made gearing too easy, it has negatively impacted the game.

    They are trying to introduce a system similar to Valor/Emblems back into the game, but they are doing so in a way that is going to result in people gearing too fast if they do not change it.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFiddleswitch View Post
    Let me rephrase a few things. Yes, there are other reasons to run LFR or do Normal/Heroic Raid Pugs, yes there are other driving forces to get people to guilds than just ilvl from a raid, and no you cannot buy every slot from Nazjatar (you get Trinkets, Rings, and Weapons from Mechagon instead, but you can absolutely get full 430 from WQs.

    However the Primary driving force is player power. By making all 430 gear available from the easiest content in the game in a 2 month period, there will absolutely be a negative effect on the items I mentioned above after the first month or so, as well as the overall MAUs - the primary metric given to the investors - for World of Warcraft, something we desperately need to not happen.

    Honestly, you don't have to take my word for it, just look at the history of the game - every single time they've made gearing too easy, it has negatively impacted the game.

    They are trying to introduce a system similar to Valor/Emblems back into the game, but they are doing so in a way that is going to result in people gearing too fast if they do not change it.
    "Too fast."

    I haven't been to the PTR so I don't know the rate of acquisition of mana pearls. What's the rate?
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    According to @Puremallace the item level cap of 8.2 is 445.
    And Nazjatar gear is 430!!!!!
    I will finally not be at a big disadvantage in PvP!
    430 is normal raid gear, 445 is heroic gear.. going to assume you're not going to get 445 more than you get 400 right now from warfronts.

    Yes, welfare loot is everywhere, what can we do.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    would be good if this gear stays so easily attainable.

    i don't care if the gear is green, blue, or epic. but i want to kill things FAST. fuck slow gameplay, fuck slow classes, and fuck killing shit slow.

    this gear will help me accomplish that. the game's only fun when i'm going 1k miles an hour.

    Alternatively, you could run heroic raids.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    430 is normal raid gear, 445 is heroic gear
    Wrong. As it is right now, 430 is Heroic level gear.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFiddleswitch View Post
    Let me rephrase a few things. Yes, there are other reasons to run LFR or do Normal/Heroic Raid Pugs, yes there are other driving forces to get people to guilds than just ilvl from a raid, and no you cannot buy every slot from Nazjatar (you get Trinkets, Rings, and Weapons from Mechagon instead, but you can absolutely get full 430 from WQs.

    However the Primary driving force is player power. By making all 430 gear available from the easiest content in the game in a 2 month period, there will absolutely be a negative effect on the items I mentioned above after the first month or so, as well as the overall MAUs - the primary metric given to the investors - for World of Warcraft, something we desperately need to not happen.

    Honestly, you don't have to take my word for it, just look at the history of the game - every single time they've made gearing too easy, it has negatively impacted the game.

    They are trying to introduce a system similar to Valor/Emblems back into the game, but they are doing so in a way that is going to result in people gearing too fast if they do not change it.
    The thing I find most interesting is that gearing up too fast wouldn't matter if there was actual progression requirements such as attunements, or skill-based barriers that had to be overcome before moving on to the next raid/dungeon/whatever.

    The problem is not necessarily the easy acquirement of gear, it's that said gear completely invalidates all previous content and progression. This means that not only are players going to potentially skip ahead, but that Blizzard must continuously provide new content to replace the previous content that was made obsolete by new gear sources.

    This is partly the nature of entirely new expansions, but what we're seeing is the same effect WITHIN an expansion. There's no possible way for Blizzard to keep up with that pace, which results in shoddy designs as they rush everything.

    The entire system of progression and content in WoW is fundamentally flawed.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    The inversion of this argument is that you think people should feel forced to raid for gear even if they dont want to be raiding.

    If people quit raiding because new sources of comparable gear become available, those people are raiding only as a means to acquire gear and not because they have fun raiding. Why do you think it is appropriate to hold people hostage to a content type that is not enjoyable to them? Putting equivalent gear on different content does not invalidate either type of content; raiding still provides that same gear, and in a much faster timeframe. What it does do is give an alternative option to people who do not enjoy raiding to not raid.

    Broadly speaking, you are in the business of taking and holding hostages in order to support a style of gameplay that you enjoy, but others do not.
    Same for you world q should not reward gear so people dont feel as hostages. They shoukd do world q becouse they are fun to do. Please just stop. People always was and always were playi for gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    This is a perfect summation of the situation and a counter to that tired old "path of least resistance" argument. The people who bring that up ignore the countless examples of people choosing a more difficult path because they find it more intrinsically rewarding ... as some people do for raiding. My thinking is that when people bring this up it's themselves that do not truly enjoy raiding, other than as a method to feel superior to those that do not raid.
    And what if intold you that theu enyoj raiding but fact they can get gear more efficiently by doing world quest still put them off? Becouse this is actualy happening. People will always give up things theu enyoj for covinienve and efficienci. Becouse that saved time is far more valuable.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-12 at 08:40 AM.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    The thing I find most interesting is that gearing up too fast wouldn't matter if there was actual progression requirements such as attunements, or skill-based barriers that had to be overcome before moving on to the next raid/dungeon/whatever.

    The problem is not necessarily the easy acquirement of gear, it's that said gear completely invalidates all previous content and progression. This means that not only are players going to potentially skip ahead, but that Blizzard must continuously provide new content to replace the previous content that was made obsolete by new gear sources.

    This is partly the nature of entirely new expansions, but what we're seeing is the same effect WITHIN an expansion. There's no possible way for Blizzard to keep up with that pace, which results in shoddy designs as they rush everything.

    The entire system of progression and content in WoW is fundamentally flawed.
    Benthic gear doesnt completely invalidate anything.

    We will be the LAST people to get geared.
    We will only enjoy a few days of the rest of 8.2 with this gear.

    Are you actually saying Mythic Raiders will just farm Benthic gear for 2 months and only then start doing Mythic raiding???

    It doesnt invalidate anything.
    Last edited by Togabito; 2019-05-12 at 10:27 AM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by THCRaven View Post
    You can gear in mythic+ farming rio and climbing the ladder, "those who mindlessly grind" have their gear and those "good" players should have no problem getting gear. If you meant puging raids a combination of casual m+ and grinding should net you enough itlvl to pug and once you get curve there is no problem anymore.

    TLDR : If you are good there is no puging nightmare m8.
    Right but the gear creates a pointless extra barrier to doing that so how is it good for casuals?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I would say this content is for players who dont enjoy a raid-guild commitment.
    Solo players. I believe there is many.

    The requirements are always high though, with or without nazjatar.
    We will only enjoy the last couple days with this gear...
    This doesn't make sense though... gear isn't content. Solo players would love something like the mage tower not more dailies no?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Has lost its way View Post
    This doesn't make sense though... gear isn't content. Solo players would love something like the mage tower not more dailies no?
    Gear is content...
    It unlocks player power.
    You can show off that power in several places and have a boner when placed high on damage meters.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Gear is content...
    It unlocks player power.
    You can show off that power in several places and have a boner when placed high on damage meters.
    It isn't content at all and the only people who you beat on the meters are those who don't mindlessly grind and only have a little bit of time... I.E casual players.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Benthic gear doesnt ompletely invalidate anything.

    We will be the LAST people to get geared.
    We will only enjoy a few days of the rest of 8.2 with this gear.

    Are you actually saying Mythic Raiders will just farm Benthic gear for 2 months and only then start doing Mythic raiding???

    It doesnt invalidate anything.
    Same thing people said about current 400+ itemlvl. Guess what. I have 400+ warrior alt wihtout steping into any dungeon or raid and 8.2 is still months away. It took me barely 1 month including leveling. Now add this + benedict gear what is account wide and it will be possible to be decked in 430+ in barely 2 months if you will play really slowly.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Same thing people said about current 400+ itemlvl. Guess what. I have 400+ warrior alt wihtout steping into any dungeon or raid and 8.2 is still months away. It took me barely 1 month including leveling. Now add this + benedict gear what is account wide and it will be possible to be decked in 430+ in barely 2 months if you will play really slowly.
    Well need to wait and see...because right now on PTR you only get around 5 per day...
    But poeple are saying the PTR is missing things.
    So we have no idea how many pearls/days will be.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Well need to wait and see...because right now on PTR you only get around 5 per day...
    But poeple are saying the PTR is missing things.
    So we have no idea how many pearls/days will be.
    All other sources 430+ will be there just like they are now for 400+ bene gear just makes all of it even faster than in current 8.1.5.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Casual means you don't play frequently and as such stick to baseline content. People who log more hours a year than mythic raiders LOVE to insist they're casual when they pretty much devote their life to the game and are just too terrible to actually do real content. Those people are not casual players. A player who logs in maybe an hour a day or 2 days a week for a few hours is a casual player. It has nothing to do with what content you do these days short of mythic raids which take a little more of a rigid schedule whereas heroic raids can be cleared by the most casual player in the world assuming they have the gear.
    But isn't it true that if you know what you're doing, a mythic raid doesn't really take much longer than a heroic one? It's the same raid, stuff just has more HP so it naturally takes a bit longer to kill. This is a gross dumbing-down of mythic, but someone who only logs in for a few hours a week could still definitely raid mythic.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    The hardest content i do right now is LFR or Mythic 0 dungeons...and to be quite honest there is nothing else to do as a casual player.

    Now comes Nazjatar.
    And you are telling me...i will now be able to be ilvl 430...without RNG...farming world content...everyday...for weeks?
    And then i need to go to Mechagon to farm weapons, rings and trinkets?
    And then i need to farm world content to unlock the neckpiece talents?

    Man...seems like an adventure to me specially with warmode on.

    Am i missing something important? Or is it really true that a casual player will have all this things to do?
    Seems dreamy.

    Additional Information:

    1) Some quick Math IF you are able to get 10 Pearls per day (not sure how many pearls you can get per day/week)



    2) The pearl items are bind on account on PTR, meaning you can farm them on several alts and funnel them to your main character
    Well, you can get to 400 ilvl without actually going into normal raid, or mythic+, or rated PvP...

    So, with a new zone wanting to boost people up to the new raid, and everyone can get them, nothing new.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Benthic gear doesnt completely invalidate anything.

    We will be the LAST people to get geared.
    We will only enjoy a few days of the rest of 8.2 with this gear.

    Are you actually saying Mythic Raiders will just farm Benthic gear for 2 months and only then start doing Mythic raiding???

    It doesnt invalidate anything.
    You're misunderstanding my point. When you have access to easy 430 gear, content below 430 becomes effectively invalidated. What's the point of running dungeons or raids that don't even drop 430 or higher?

    As long as WoW is a reward oriented model, any time higher iLVL gear is made easily available, content which drops lesser gear is invalidated by it. Which, as I said is fine when an entirely new expansion with new game mechanics resets everything. But it's NOT fine when it's done from patch to patch within an expansion. It makes progression almost pointless when you can just wait a month or two for new EZ mode gear to become available.
    Happiness is peace in motion.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    You're misunderstanding my point. When you have access to easy 430 gear, content below 430 becomes effectively invalidated. What's the point of running dungeons or raids that don't even drop 430 or higher?

    As long as WoW is a reward oriented model, any time higher iLVL gear is made easily available, content which drops lesser gear is invalidated by it. Which, as I said is fine when an entirely new expansion with new game mechanics resets everything. But it's NOT fine when it's done from patch to patch within an expansion. It makes progression almost pointless when you can just wait a month or two for new EZ mode gear to become available.
    No it doesnt because Benthic is an alternative means of progression.

    If you ask a Heroic Raider:
    -"Do you want to do world quests everyday, on several toons, without skipping a day, for 2 months to get 430 ilvl gear?"

    I bet many of them would tell you "No, are you stupid? Do i look like a chinese farmer to you?"

    -----

    You are missing the point.
    The TIME when you are able to get the gear is very important.
    By your argument is pointless to farm any content...because the next patch releases in 3 months..
    Timing is really important in this argument,

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    No it doesnt because Benthic is an alternative means of progression.

    If you ask a Heroic Raider:
    -"Do you want to do world quests everyday, on several toons, without skipping a day, for 2 months to get 430 ilvl gear?"

    I bet many of them would tell you "No, are you stupid? Do i look like a chinese farmer to you?"

    -----

    You are missing the point.
    The TIME when you are able to get the gear is very important.
    By your argument is pointless to farm any content...because the next patch releases in 3 months..
    Timing is really important in this argument,
    You asked wrong question. Question for heroic raider should sound like this: Do you want spend 10 minuted a day farming few world q and have more time outside of game or do you want raid 2× week in organized raid for 4 hours? + you have to farm for consumables, learn bosses, progress bosses, get lucky with drops, schelude your life, etc..for same outcome? Hell no.

    You pretty much says heroic raiding is far less time consuming than doing world Q which is completly false statement. Yes you get gear maybe bit faster but you have to play 1000% more. Doing world Q is slower in real time in our world. In game time (play time) doing world q is actualy much faster. Person what spend progressing and getting into 430 gear spends far more time playing game than person doing jsut world Q.

    Pretty sure 10 minutes in Nazjatar zone is far more efficient than doing scheluded raiding.

    Some would say it is goid thing peiple dont have to spend time in raids now. Well too bad as we can see casual playerbase is not retained trough welfare gear. Those players got bored and quit much faster. Shower people.in loot do not work.

    People what enyoj current spoonfeed from Blizzard are not majority. Majority of this game is no longer playing. Game is played by top end elittist or bottom end enttilted noobs. Actual casual mmorpg audience is long gone or waiting for classic.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2019-05-12 at 11:59 AM.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post

    If you ask a Heroic Raider:
    -"Do you want to do world quests everyday, on several toons, without skipping a day, for 2 months to get 430 ilvl gear?"

    I bet many of them would tell you "No, are you stupid? Do i look like a chinese farmer to you?"
    Where is this Heroic raid that instantly decks you in full gear with no time required? I would love to know.

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