Game of Thrones meme explains BfA perfectly (spoilers)

[Wilfire]

Difference is that Sylvanas is not a complete moron who's fighting for a mortal throne. She can see the bigger picture, even if all of her actions are wrong.

[Highelf]

And again, the orcs are no more weak willed than any other race regardless of faction. You chose a strange hilll for your argument to die on.

My argument is valid. I did not do the comparing. YOU did. But i'll take your silence on the actual matter at hand as admittance.

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Yeah, as @Mehrunes has pointed out I haven't really contested the statistics. At all. I've only pointed out population numbers=/=fans of a race's lore. That's not really a difficult point to grasp. For some reason, you're tripping all over yourself trying to imply something that I haven't done. Congratulations on that.

As far as "name calling" goes, sometimes people are called names because the name caller is losing. Other times the names are just accurate descriptors. Given that you don't seem to have a handle on the substance of this point, I think it's pretty obvious which one of those is the case.

And where did I bring politics into this?

I was not referring to you about the politics and name calling. I apologize as I do not know how to split up quotes.

Speaking of tripping though, all the original poster on this stated was that void elves are the highest played allied race right now. Which is correct. It doesn't matter why, it's there in black and white regardless if you like them or not. I'm still on the fence with them but numbers don't lie. So let's just leave it at that, agree to disagree or whatever and move on shall we?

[Friendlyimmolation]

My argument is valid. I did not do the comparing. YOU did. But i'll take your silence on the actual matter at hand as admittance.

Your argument is what exactly, that the Horde is "weak willed' under your blanket use of the term? When pointed out how it's not, or that under your use of it everything is "weak willed" you devolve into "I already won" circular "arguments"

[Highelf]

The "horde" IS very weak willed especially the orcs. You have never disputed that.

[formerShandalay]

The "horde" IS very weak willed especially the orcs. You have never disputed that.

I think the point is, that everyone has been shown as weak willed in WoW. Horde, Alliance, they do the same shit everytime someone comes along and gives them even the slightest incentive. Even the Cenarion Circle do that, if to a lesser extent. As did the Argent Dawn.
I think the only ones that have proven to have any kind of will is the Earthen Ring and maybe the Argent Crusade under Tirion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The "horde" IS very weak willed especially the orcs. You have never disputed that.

Because when literally every single race in wow can be described as weak willed regardless of faction in this game, that's not an argument.



You might as well argue people breath air, of course they do.

[Jastall]

It's actually impressive how well the problems match up, even just when it comes to their opposition. While retroactively Cersei was clearly the best monarch out of the remaining three candidates, and managed to be fiscally responsible, avoid any pointless casualties against the largely harmless zombies and offered refuge to innocents in her keep, you have to keep the rest in mind too.

Jon is effectively the Baine or Saurfang of the equation. We're told he's the heart of the people and everyone loves him, but there's really no reason why, nor is this ever shown to us beyond the small insular cast. Dude has only fucked up non-stop since he got stabbed for falling to a literal cardboard cut out. Then he ran in alone into a cavalry charge and got all his men killed and got crowned for it, with everyone praising his excellent leadership and wisdom. Then he hooks up with Dany, all well and good. Next time he has any decision making power, he sends their magically respawning Dothraki to all die and proceeds to do nothing of value in the entire fight. From this everyone seems to gleam that he's somehow suited for leadership, culminating with when he can't even keep his own equally as magically respawning troops from going on a raping spree and barely even attempts to, despite being told that he's so loved and respected. So loved and respected that his own guys try to kill him when he does his one deed of the episode of trying to stop a rape.

It's less bad in WoW if you ask me because it's always been a fairly idealistic game and setting. Sure, there's grime and muck in places, but in the end Blizzard clearly wants it to be about medieval Avengers taking down evil monsters with bouts of Civil War in-between to spice things up. Like it or not, Warcraft is hardly what I'd call a cynical universe.

Game of Thrones has made it pretty clear that it is NOT idealistic and that being a decent guy does not mean you're a great ruler. That was the lesson hammered home by Ned, Robb, and even Dany herself to a lesser extent when she decided to plant her feet in Meereen to no avail. But when Jon enters the picture, even guys like Varys sincerely believe he'll be the bee's knees because he's a fundamentally decent dude? We're informed of his prowess but he screwed up much of everything since Hardhome if you ask me. His best contribution was uniting everyone before the battle against the Night King, but fat load of good that did when the assembled armies subsequently used terrible tactics and had to be saved by the plot in the form of a 18 years old superninja.

Even during season 8 they makes it a point to show that Jon is too honorable even for a simple lie, too nice to lead an army into a siege, and too rigid to question Dany but also too hesitant to actually try and solve her problems with her. How can the audience actually believe he'll make a good king, I wonder.

Then again this is the same show that has Tyrion swallow an entire potion of stupid and become an incredibly useless moron after spending four seasons being one of the most clever characters on TV.

[Shadowsgrace]

[*]Anduin kind of forgot to bring gas masks to the Siege of Lordaeron

Anduin didn't forget anything, he assumed Sylvanas had enough scruples not to blight her own Troops or Capital City.

[Theangryone]

I absolutely, positively love these threads where the fanboys endlessly drone on and shit on everything. I look forward to when they actually make threads about what they do like just so it can be left in ash and ruin.

[Super Dickmann]

It's less bad in WoW if you ask me because it's always been a fairly idealistic game and setting. Sure, there's grime and muck in places, but in the end Blizzard clearly wants it to be about medieval Avengers taking down evil monsters with bouts of Civil War in-between to spice things up. Like it or not, Warcraft is hardly what I'd call a cynical universe.

GoT is only worse in the sense that the story's fallen from much higher to become this crap, whereas Blizzard have loved this kind of moralizing bs in one form or another since forever. SC1 and TFT are probably their last stories where it's absent. Besides, Jon's main problem isn't that he's the vehicle for a message, a show that just had its other protagonist go ham on half a million people doesn't really care and it's been nihilistic for ages.

No, his problem is that he's an absolute moron and everything about him is an informed ability.

His best contribution was uniting everyone before the battle against the Night King, but fat load of good that did when the assembled armies subsequently used terrible tactics and had to be saved by the plot in the form of a 18 years old superninja.

Even during season 8 they makes it a point to show that Jon is too honorable even for a simple lie, too nice to lead an army into a siege, and too rigid to question Dany but also too hesitant to actually try and solve her problems with her. How can the audience actually believe he'll make a good king, I wonder.

The wight plan, which I don't remember if it was Tyrion or Jon is the only reason the Night King was able to bring down the wall and be a threat. Before then he completely fucked up Winterfell and was made king for it, having the setting bend over backwards for his benefit despite the idea of putting a bastard ahead of the legal heir, who also did all the work, essentially destroying the conceit of the feudal system as it removes the determinism of inheritance. Now the show hasn't given a crap about this since it stopped being an adaptation, but it still means Jon was again hailed and praised for being a dumbass who hit people real good with a sword.

We learn later he can't lie, as you say, regardless of the cause, if the wight plan is his he essentially causes the problem he was raised from the dead to prevent, would not have intervened per his chat with Dany even after 100k of their troops were killed running into zombies for no reason, and for all that everyone says his people love him and would follow him over Dany, not only is the shit he's praised for the things she's done for ages, but when she decides to go all kill-happy all his men join in while he does jack shit in terms of successful orders to stop them.

I do hate that the show has made me defend Dany, considering she's been dull as dishwater for six seasons, but Tyrion's stupid pill overdose has meant that her sole fault prior to this has been listening to everyone's shit ideas.

[Mehrunes]

Anduin didn't forget anything, he assumed Sylvanas had enough scruples not to blight her own Troops or Capital City.

Even if she had such scruples, which is already an idiotic assumption on Anduin's part, how would that have stopped Sylvanas from shooting Blight over the walls when there's no Horde ranging party outside of them?

[Bladesyphon]

Unless boy king will stop serving on master's table. He is Golden's golden child.

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His stories are logical and coherent, of course. The problem is that he likes to make main characters too powerful and he exaggerrates everything to make battles more epic. While the story is still cohesive, it causes problem for future writers. Malfurion is so powerful that his very presence makes plotholes everywhere around Sylvanas who somehow manages to destroy Teldrassil anyway.

Still better than Golden and her cliche trope of killing a character close to the protagonist off in literally *every* book she's written, or how she gives characters plot armor with literally no explanation what so ever (such as an entire tower falling on Garrosh in Tides of War, yet no explanation as to why he was alive and well in the next scene).

Or my personal favorite - The Aspects using the power of love and friendship to defeat one of the most powerful entities draconic entities on Azeroth (Chromatus) with a rainbow beam of love.

Knaak may have problems with writing characters that are over the top and way too powerful for what they are, but atleast his stories aren't nonsensical drivel like most of the garbage that Golden pens.

[GreenJesus]

Anduin didn't forget anything, he assumed Sylvanas had enough scruples not to blight her own Troops or Capital City.

Imagine having your armies lives depending on a Banshee's morals.

[Highelf]

I think the point is, that everyone has been shown as weak willed in WoW. Horde, Alliance, they do the same shit everytime someone comes along and gives them even the slightest incentive. Even the Cenarion Circle do that, if to a lesser extent. As did the Argent Dawn.
I think the only ones that have proven to have any kind of will is the Earthen Ring and maybe the Argent Crusade under Tirion.

I'll agree with you on that, but some more than others. The night elves seem to have had a strong will since they screwed up during the sundering. The orcs just have shown over and over and over again that they can be easily manipulated, weak willed, and willing to sacrifice their precious "honor" leading up to present day. Which many other races have to rein them in and fix what they've done.

[formerShandalay]

I'll agree with you on that, but some more than others. The night elves seem to have had a strong will since they screwed up during the sundering. The orcs just have shown over and over and over again that they can be easily manipulated, weak willed, and willing to sacrifice their precious "honor" leading up to present day. Which many other races have to rein them in and fix what they've done.

Most of the Nightelves, yes. But there were others too and they caused a lot of havoc in the world, namely Staghelm and his followers from the time of the Great Trees to the Cataclysm and the first Worgen during the war of the Satyr.

I mean, there were also examples of really strong willed orcs, orcs that maybe fell for something and later realized their mistake and tried to make up for it. I also think that the orcs struggle with the loss of their identity until this day, especially on Azeroth, where they yet have to create a legacy for themselves. The only exception here being the Frostwolves with Drek'thar. Which is also the reason why every orc seemingly going through some soul-searching goes to Outland Nagrand, because that's where their roots were, that's where there's still orcs guided by strong minds, be those shaman or warriors that still actually live their traditions and legacy.
I think the orcs' struggle is really made apparent in Saurfang, because all he has to hold on to is a nebulous honour, that may actually be grounded in the things that the orcs back when he was young were living by, fearless and cunning warriors, guided and/or counseled by wise shaman, but that he never actually studied or held on to later, so it became somewhat ... well.. nebulous and only an instinct by learning it the hard way, nothing that he could actually make 'rules' out of. So it's only something that he himself can live by, not something he can teach to others apart from the infamous 'honor, never forsake it' which doesn't mean much, if you can't also define 'honor'.
So, I guess what I'm trying to explain here with lots of words is that I don't think the orcs are inherently weaker willed than any other race, but they did get broken so many times that they need to find a new kind of anchor for themselves. Something that is so true to them that no promise, temptation or act of violence can ever make them forsake it and even if they happen to go astray that they can come back to, like Drek'thar, Durotan and Saurfang did. And I guess Thrall too, but he's a bit of a different case. But he's also an orc and he's anything but weak willed, so any weak will in an orc can't be because of the race itself.
If I myself had to point to an actual race as the one with the weakest of wills, I'd point to humans. But even those aren't all weak willed, so it seems more like it's a personal flaw in any given person, not something that comes with a specific race.

[Seylene]

It's actually impressive how well the problems match up, even just when it comes to their opposition. While retroactively Cersei was clearly the best monarch out of the remaining three candidates, and managed to be fiscally responsible, avoid any pointless casualties against the largely harmless zombies and offered refuge to innocents in her keep, you have to keep the rest in mind too.

Jon is effectively the Baine or Saurfang of the equation. We're told he's the heart of the people and everyone loves him, but there's really no reason why, nor is this ever shown to us beyond the small insular cast. Dude has only fucked up non-stop since he got stabbed for falling to a literal cardboard cut out. Then he ran in alone into a cavalry charge and got all his men killed and got crowned for it, with everyone praising his excellent leadership and wisdom. Then he hooks up with Dany, all well and good. Next time he has any decision making power, he sends their magically respawning Dothraki to all die and proceeds to do nothing of value in the entire fight. From this everyone seems to gleam that he's somehow suited for leadership, culminating with when he can't even keep his own equally as magically respawning troops from going on a raping spree and barely even attempts to, despite being told that he's so loved and respected. So loved and respected that his own guys try to kill him when he does his one deed of the episode of trying to stop a rape.

lol well okay I can see a bit of the Baine/Jon relationship when you put it right there. I don't see one between Dany and Sylvanas outside of burning something. So I am hoping with the imprisoning we avoid the Undead/Minotaur Aunt/Nephew love story. And yes Cerisi ending up being the only reliable monarch out of it was kind of laughable. Paid off her bills restarted infrastructure made alliances, just didn't plan for a drop off in accuracy vs dragon with her scorpions.

[Shadowsgrace]

Imagine having your armies lives depending on a Banshee's morals.

Up until 8.0 she wasn't Batshit crazy.

[Akka]

As bad as the writing of the last GoT season has been (including ep 5), it's still nowhere the level of absurdity than WoW reached.

[formerShandalay]

On the topic of Anduin relying on Sylvanas not blighting her own troops or a whole city, she herself even addressed that in 'a Good War'. She says bringing the Blight-throwers to Darkshore and threatening Teldrassil with them would be an empty threat, because no one would believe anyone would actually do that. She doesn't say she wouldn't, only that no one would believe it as a threat, which would kind of make the threat useless.
I'm not sure if she is completely right in this, because I could see Genn and maybe Tyrande taking this as a genuine threat, but Sylvanas is right in so far that the rest wouldn't believe it.

But I still don't think this justifies attacking Undercity and not bringing gasmasks. That was a major fuck up, because even if you don't think she's going to throw it at her own troops, you can be sure she'll lay some traps or even send some suicide bombers right into your ranks with it. I mean, the Goblins do this all the time, what difference would it make if it's not explosives but Blight in this case?

[Mehrunes]

Up until 8.0 she wasn't Batshit crazy.

Which still doesn't address the fact that she could still have launched Blight on the Alliance when the Horde was inside the walls.