The libertarian argument for Universal Healthcare.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Private insurance companies should be abolished.

They prevent doctors from competing with one another and cause prices to skyrocket.

They essentially act as gatekeepers and serve only one function: to deny you service you could otherwise pay for.

Libertarians cannot and should not ethically stand behind private insurance companies unless they want to be branded as statists.

It's time to let Doctors enter the free market and for the economy to dictate the worth of their services.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Private insurance companies should be abolished.

Unconstitutional

They prevent doctors from competing with one another and cause prices to skyrocket.

Also against the law slavery made illegal.

They essentially act as gatekeepers and serve only one function: to deny you service you could otherwise pay for.

No they don't

Libertarians cannot and should not ethically stand behind private insurance companies unless they want to be branded as statists.

I am not a Libertarian so go for it.

It's time to let Doctors enter the free market and for the economy to dictate the worth of their services.

Eh, NO! Well I mean they already sort of can, but if you mean Doctors who basically make up some of the best of the best minds on the planet who are very few and far between on the I.Q chart.

If they suddenly decided to get into medicine for money deciding who lives and who dies, the rest of us would be fucked. Doctors generally are the best and brightest, and honestly it's actually good they do take pity on most of our sorry asses, because if they didn't, they could always make a lot more money.

So it's actually good that Doctors make great money, but they also mostly actually give a fuck.

[BeepBoo]

1) Insurance companies in and of themselves do not stop doctors from competing with one another. There can be any number of insurance companies with any policy and "in-network" coverage. The biggest thing stopping doctors from competing with each other is the overwhelming demand for services that far out-paces the supply. That can't be solved easily, because doctors have very stringent requirements and the risk is high. We don't allow people to absolve doctors of all responsibility if shit goes wrong, so the risk to the doctor for practicing at all is huge.

2) "Don't do this or you lose your libertarian status and become a statist!" Typical non-sequitur fallacy.

3) "It's time to let Doctors enter the free market" I agree! Time to stop forcing them to cover and care for anyone regardless of ability to pay.

The worth of their services is far more than what they currently make given the current supply and the requirements to enter that supply. Say we realistically need 5 doctors per 100 people to hit the sweet spot where everyone is getting all the care they need. 5% of our population is definitely not capable of the intelligence and rigor required to become a doc. Maybe .1%

Most people would say their life is priceless when asked how much they think they're worth. That's obviously false as judged by the rest of society, since they have a finite value they'll earn across their life. If not forced to reconcile that fact, people would spend far more than their share of resources just to get themselves another day. We need to be forcing people to realize they aren't special jewels that the universe needs to ensure survive.

[Wyrt]

Healthcare is not and will never be a free market.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Typical statist replies.

Why can't I buy my healthcare directly from the Doctor and pay a fair price?

How can you be a libertarian while still supporting a bureaucracy?

[Elegiac]

Typical statist replies.

Why can't I buy my healthcare directly from the Doctor and pay a fair price?

How can you be a libertarian while still supporting a bureaucracy?

By understanding that healthcare doesn't obey standard market principles due to inelastic demand.

[Zafire]

I've always thought, if anything, the only type of education that should be "free" or partially paid for are things in demand by society. Going to college for 8 years and ending up with $300,000 in debt is not encouraging anyone.

[Milchshake]

Typical statist replies.

Why can't I buy my healthcare directly from the Doctor and pay a fair price?

How can you be a libertarian while still supporting a bureaucracy?

Why are you being such a statist and going to a "Doctor"? Who's just a shill with certifications.

A real Libertarian would find someone without certifications to operate on them. A yeoman and free thinker with a scalpel!


Libertarian Healthcare solves itself at this point.


And hope that "doctor" agrees with your NAP. Otherwise he just cuts you and takes all your stuff.

[Wyrt]

Typical statist replies.

Why can't I buy my healthcare directly from the Doctor and pay a fair price?

How can you be a libertarian while still supporting a bureaucracy?

Because Healthcare isn't a free market.

Libertarians are nutty, I don't know why anyone would want to be one. It basically requires you to ignore how the world actually works.

[BeepBoo]

Why can't I buy my healthcare directly from the Doctor and pay a fair price?

You can. You can always pay out of pocket. Hint: the price floor is higher than the market can truly bear without cost sharing, which is why insurance exists as a mitigation system. People intelligently chose to treat health care like any other high-dollar item. The problem was the government got involved and mandated everyone has to be covered, you can't be denied coverage, and places have to treat regardless of ability to pay.

It should work like automotive insurance or house insurance. It would be fine then.

How can you be a libertarian while still supporting a bureaucracy?

I think you grossly misunderstand what libertarianism actually is. If the free market decides an insurance-based solution (a'la car insurance) is the best thing, then so be it. However, it would be unregulated and people would pick and choose. Ultimately, you could also pay out of pocket if you want. But, if I were a doctor, I'd definitely sign contractual agreements with insurance companies to get funneled patients for a lower price for guaranteed income and then ream the people who weren't part of my good ol' boys club.

Libertarianism is the freedom to make any/all choice for yourself. That doesn't mean people would default to making bad choices. Most people, especially the more intelligent, would make smart choices that benefited themselves still.

[Azadina]

Because Healthcare isn't a free market.

Libertarians are nutty, I don't know why anyone would want to be one. It basically requires you to ignore how the world actually works.

It's why I personally call them Crackbertarians. I don't see how one can do it without crack... and lots of it.

[BeepBoo]

A real Libertarian would find someone without certifications to operate on them. A yeoman and free thinker with a scalpel!

Wanting no barriers to entry for medical professionals doesn't mean I'm going to go to those people. The free market would still probably end up favoring the highly skilled, proven, certified people. It just wouldn't be required by law. Big difference.

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It's why I personally call them Crackbertarians. I don't see how one can do it without crack... and lots of it.

Pre tell, how does the world "actually work"?

You mean people getting upset they get forgotten and abandoned by the capable, and then turn around and riot as a result of their incapability? No. I definitely don't ignore that part. That's why I want police around to put down the rabid dogs who backed themselves into a corner *if* they decide to step out of line inappropriately.

[Biomega]

Free market doesn't work for things that don't really involve economic choice.

Diabetics can't REALLY choose not to get insulin. Accident victims can't REALLY choose not to go to the ER.

Maybe you can choose which brand of insulin to get, and what device to administer it; or choose what ER to go to, and what treatment option to get. But the top-level choice is not a choice, if you go beyond the whole ethical paradigm of not getting treatment at all (which is an ethical choice, not an economic choice).

Capitalist economic principles break down when you take economic choice away.

[Azadina]

Pre tell, how does the world "actually work"?

You mean people getting upset they get forgotten and abandoned by the capable, and then turn around and riot as a result of their incapability? No. I definitely don't ignore that part. That's why I want police around to put down the rabid dogs who backed themselves into a corner *if* they decide to step out of line inappropriately.

What police? The privately and optionally funded one, since "taxes are theft"? Also known as mafia. Corruption is surely never going to be part of such police force, no sir how could it!

[BeepBoo]

What police? The privately and optionally funded one, since "taxes are theft"? Also known as mafia. Corruption is surely never going to be part of such police force, no sir how could it!

Again, you're under the impression that I wouldn't be willing to pay for a government just because I think *mandatory taxes* are theft. I'd gladly give to plenty of orgs that were government entities to make it happen. Also, prices of goods would reflect things that weren't openly funded by the public sufficiently. Just because you can't envision how it could work doesn't mean it's not possible.

Regardless... It's not like we have corrupt politicians now at all... nope. It's not like we currently have a million different construction quality standards for things like roads where some are utter garbage that barely last a year... nope. All of the things you're saying would exist under libertarianism already do exist.

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Free market doesn't work for things that don't really involve economic choice.

That depends entirely on what you mean by "doesn't work."

Does a system "not work" if people need help and can't realistically convince people or get the help they need for any reason? I say no. Still working as intended. Do certain people get unduly screwed due to bad luck in the gene pool, or other strenuous circumstances? Yep. Still doesn't mean it's not failing. What if the free market eventually weeded out all the people who couldn't afford insulin for their genetic disability and we ended up better off with far less cases of it in the future? Humanity would be better off if that were the outcome IMO.

Doesn't mean I support going after these people. It means I support the free market making its own mind up on the topic of "who deserves to live and die."

[Wyrt]

Pre tell, how does the world "actually work"?

You mean people getting upset they get forgotten and abandoned by the capable, and then turn around and riot as a result of their incapability? No. I definitely don't ignore that part. That's why I want police around to put down the rabid dogs who backed themselves into a corner *if* they decide to step out of line inappropriately.

Libertarianism requires ignoring the negative aspects of capitalism entirely.

[Elegiac]

That depends entirely on what you mean by "doesn't work."

Does a system "not work" if people need help and can't realistically convince people or get the help they need for any reason? I say no. Still working as intended. Do certain people get unduly screwed due to bad luck in the gene pool, or other strenuous circumstances? Yep. Still doesn't mean it's not failing. What if the free market eventually weeded out all the people who couldn't afford insulin for their genetic disability and we ended up better off with far less cases of it in the future? Humanity would be better off if that were the outcome IMO.

Doesn't mean I support going after these people. It means I support the free market making its own mind up on the topic of "who deserves to live and die."

Oh look, someone who doesn't understand what Darwinism is.

[Azadina]

Again, you're under the impression that I wouldn't be willing to pay for a government just because I think *mandatory taxes* are theft. I'd gladly give to plenty of orgs that were government entities to make it happen. Also, prices of goods would reflect things that weren't openly funded by the public sufficiently. Just because you can't envision how it could work doesn't mean it's not possible.

Regardless... It's not like we have corrupt politicians now at all... nope. It's not like we currently have a million different construction quality standards for things like roads where some are utter garbage that barely last a year... nope. All of the things you're saying would exist under libertarianism already do exist.

Yeah, and instead of fixing problems you want to ramp it all up thousand fold. So you're cool with paying for government, but not everyone might. So.. Donation funded for-profit police forces...yay. What could possibly go wrong. Donation funded for-profit military...LOL. What else we have? You know what, I'll just go to sleep, because I'd need some crack to come up with more scenarios on how ridiculous it would actually get. Suffice to say: look at Somalia. That's close enough. Rename warlords and such with "CEO" and there you have it.

[BeepBoo]

Libertarianism requires ignoring the negative aspects of capitalism entirely.

You mean the aspects that you think are negative. Just because you think they are doesn't make that a fact. Also, there is nothing stopping libertarianism from instituting things that are optional from a participation standpoint, yet seek to correct things like "monopolies" that are typically regarded as those "negative" things you speak of. Also, kinda hard to have a monopoly when IP is nonexistent and anyone can rip off your bright idea you try to keep on lock.

[Elegiac]

You mean the aspects that you think are negative. Just because you think they are doesn't make that a fact. Also, there is nothing stopping libertarianism from instituting things that are optional from a participation standpoint, yet seek to correct things like "monopolies" that are typically regarded as those "negative" things you speak of. Also, kinda hard to have a monopoly when IP is nonexistent and anyone can rip off your bright idea you try to keep on lock.

IP means nothing when the means of production is in a small number of hands, too.